Getting Started In 8th Edition With Templars

[Radioactive Toy]

Schlitzaf, thank you for the advice, what do you mean by "efficiency of our deep strikes"? Can you expand upon that? I'm not sure I understand how our Deep Strikes are different to another chapter's.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Ditch the Power Sword on the Marshal if you have the points to upgrade to a relic blade. Same model, better weapon.

Our deep strikes are potentially more efficient as we have the change reroll.if you deep strike a unit, and it doesn't make the charge, it will get mercilessly shot at in the next turn. As it sits alone in its 9 inch bubble of emptiness.

[Radioactive Toy]

Ah, of course. You're right.

 

And the only reason I didn't take a relic blade on my Marshal was because I lacked the points in a 1k list. When I expand further I definitely will upgrade that.

 

Our trait does give us a far more favourable chance of pulling off a successful deep-strike charge, now if only Drop Pods weren't so over-costed in 8th edition...

[Brother Talarian]

Only advice I would give is to drop the two rhinos. With the points you can add a third lascannon team and bolster the ranks. Or drop one rhink, make an additional, cheaper shooty crusader unit and use the rhink for two of the three rhinos.

[Firepower]

Our chances of a successful deep strike charge are better than others in C:SM, but they still aren't good chances.

 

I'd largely reserve that tactic for Cataphractii or classic Terminators and Ironclads. They can more likely endure overwatch and the punishment next turn if the charge fails, and most have shooting they can do when they land, so they won't be completely useless on a fail to charge.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Firepower

[Schlitzaf]

It’s a 23% to a 46-50% increase. Which means if we drop 6 Units 3 will likely make it in. More often I find it’s in the one 40% range. It makes 7-8” significantly more probable too. Like going with my prior example, 12+7 = 19 (honestly, which reminds me one addition to our tactic be cool is roll two dice for advance choose highest or something but going on). Even if we average 3 on advance so 15. Semi-Optimal condition give us an 9” (8) Charge which is 50% or higher success rate, or 75% success rate on charging with our tactics. T3 we can assure our charge. (The reason I say 24 is I doubts your fighting a pure gunline or a pure melee list. In most scenerios the opponent will also be moving forward or otherwise).

 

Like instead of going for haymaker or deathstars. Our tactic while helps us getting to combat does not assure it. So we wanted to make a lot of chances available to allow us to roll. While this is truly normally we have likelyhood atleast getting one unit. In otherwords, we want more units attempting to charge because it gives us a more chance to pass vs mitigating the high chance for failure. Weird I know.

 

Because our army has three things; we can avoid character tax, one character equates to 2, we can fill the third slot for Brigade or Speciality Detachment easily (Champion), our unique troop unit can fill any role required as such we effectively avoid the troop tax.

 

Common failures; forgetting even if a 7” Charge is 75% to success, that their is still a 25% to chance to fail the test, undervaluing Neophytes, yes cost they same as scouts but they hit like Marines (admittedly just like scouts) there is very little reason to not take Neos in Crusader Squads, a weird way to see it is that while Neos are 25% less durable that doesn’t matter until Inits are dead or AP -3/4 (in which case take it on Neos), and finally forgetting our Crusaders can take Heavy weapons or a PowWeapon, let me iterate we are melee inclines not melee, we are more attrition. And finally, don’t neglect Primaris, Intercessor espacially are cheap 90-100 Points and able to effectively support Crusaders. Because they have have small footprint but a respectable number of attacks (PowSword espaicially at 3).

[Sword Brother Adelard]

We all know the advantages of Intercessors,Schlitzaf, a lot of us just don't like them. It's nothing to do with their stats, it's just personal. (I don't like their silly helmets.)

[Radioactive Toy]

Agreed. I can't reconcile the absolute nonsense lore behind the Primaris, and the lore is the main thing that keeps the game interesting for me when I'm not playing. Regardless of how good Primaris are, I won't play them. They are heresy, and I ain't no heretic.

[Schlitzaf]

We all know the advantages of Intercessors,Schlitzaf, a lot of us just don't like them. It's nothing to do with their stats, it's just personal. (I don't like their silly helmets.)

It something I don’t see often on these forums but real life. On the benefits of Intercessors vs 5 Man MSU With Full Plas. Where folks think Intercessors are glorified Bolter Bros and as useful as Tacticals in melee.

 

————

On the flavor note, the heads are the same scale as older Marine Heads (its really the legs and arms that are different). Primaris are just Astartes, if someone the heretic it’s Gulliman and Cawl. Blame the creators not the creations

Edited January 21, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[Firepower]

Punish the creators and the creations, my wayward brother. Pity not the mutant for the failing of his parents reproduction. Pity not the xenos for spawning from impure species. Mourn not the demon for its birth by the weak and ill minded.

 

No pity, no remorse.

 

On a more serious note, fluff is a factor for many players and 40k fans in general. Mathematics and efficiency be damned, I'm not taking scouts because they are against our fluff, and many (including myself) feel the same towards Primaris. We'll make do without, as Sigismund intended B)

[Schlitzaf]

Fair and I’d be lying if it wasn’t the case for me. It’s why I run very very minimal pyskers*, in my list. Only time I run pyskers are Astropaths or an Ordos Hereticus Inquistor (because it’s closest way represent the old they had in 4th). Or why I don’t use Centurions or Scouts myself. Like I always want to try scouts for a variety of reasons (these variety of reasons being prime conversion opportunity), but it’s a no go despite having semi-reasonable lore given in the 6th Edition. If I wanted to be really honest it’s why I never run “Relic Units” or explicitly Heresy Era Units (like Contemptors or various Heresy Armor Marks). Because I don’t like the idea of “Relics” it detracts for me from my army being Warhammer 40,000. Sigismund said we never stop Crusading as we look to take the battle to the enemy of man and by extension the continued Great Crusade and taking Humanity across the entire galaxy. Relics for me represent a sign we are burdened and chained by our past not motivated it.

 

Our Black Armor, is that reminder of our failure at Terra and why we Crusade, it is a chain tying us down, but the reason we fight. /shrug. Pardon my tangent. At the end of the day, we all play 40k for our own reasons. I like playing and converting, while hanging out with my friends. If its the lore, that is fine. My only statement on the lore, if the religious adherence to your concieved notion of lore worsens your time playing, it might be worth reevaluating it. For example, I found trying to shoe-horn my Gaurdsman into a company commander and double platoon made the game less fun. (Because I was spending several Tax points on units instead of getting the needed heavy weapons and otherwise. Mean I often had games where it just wasn’t fun because I couldn’t hurt the enemy).

 

I’ll never take Centurions, no matter how they are, because I didn’t need them. Or felt I needed them. I had fun time playing regardless and end of the day that what matters, having fun. Words. Fluff is fine, following the fluff is fine, but remember blind adherence can be bad and worsen your time. I rambled, I apologize. All I am saying don’t forget why you are rolling the dice and playing the game in the first place.

 

*I only run Astropaths because well we need them to fly and their physic ability is more an explicit mutation that allows you to traverse the warp. An Ordos Hereticus Pysker, even then not gonna be the case in 8th sense non pyshics can deny again

Edited January 21, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[Radioactive Toy]

It's a balance. You need to have fun playing the game, but I also need to satisfy the lore to have fun building and planning my army. I don't mind playing a shooty army, for example, because whereas Black Templars are known for mass assaults of their Crusaders, they also do utilise long-range firepower as well.

 

Vehicles are so prevalent in the game right now that you need heavy weapons to deal with them, or your footsloggers will spend their turns running around instead of purging the Emperor's foes. Primaris may be good now, however, they aren't necessary to win games. Our Chapter-specific alternative has some advantages over them, and as long as we leverage that advantage we can do well without Primaris.

 

As long as I don't feel like I'm losing games because I'm not using Primaris, I'll avoid them.

 

Also, I think I'll post the work I've accomplished today. Seven Crusaders built, still need to drill holes in the guns and trim some mould lines, but this is the start of my Crusade.

 

They aren't glued to the bases yet either. Going to paint the bases first for ease of dry-brushing.

[Firepower]

A good start.  I generally recommend keeping tabard torsos separate from the legs for painting, much the same as you've done with the bases.  I'm awfully meticulous (read: obsessive) though.  In fact I keep tabard torsos, heads, arms, shoulders and backpacks all separate :lol:

 

I thought you were going for shooty Crusaders?  Those look awful stabby...not that I'm complaining :D

[Radioactive Toy]

May have been a good idea. I left the shoulder pads off because I intended to prime them white, to make sure that the white colour is smooth and even. The rest of the model will be primed black, but the tabards would also have benefitted from being primed seperately.

[Radioactive Toy]

Also, regarding the stabbyness of the Crusaders, I'm intending to start with two 5-Man shooty units, and one 10-man combat unit. I'll need some sort of melee presence for if I come against an enemy that actually wants to get close and personal, and I want to test how effective they are. I built the stabby Crusaders first just because they quicker and easier to build, I find, since the arms are independant.

 

The Plasma Gunner is going to be part of the shooty squad, though. Composition will be Lacannon, Plasma, and 3 bolters. Maybe Combi-Plasma on the Sword Brother?

[Firepower]

A lot of folks do tend to like the combi-plas in those squads.  I don't have anything of the sort in my Crusade, so all I have is hearsay.  

 

Something to remember about 8th edition meta in general: boots on the ground are a key focus.  You need a lot of bodies these days.  The more upgrades you put into small squads, the more concentrated your points (and thus model count) become.  This goes for elite and troop choices alike.  

 

When it comes to filling gaps cheaply, my favorite go-to right now is the H Killer Missile.  They're dirt cheap, and if you're running a lot of Rhinos or Razorbacks for those small squads, you can bring a formidable first volley of anti-armor fire.

 

As an aside, don't expect much from a 10 man stabby unit.  At the very least they'll need some sort of aura buff, and typically rely on having more numbers than 10 (the norm is 13-15).

Edited January 22, 2018 by Firepower

[Radioactive Toy]

I'd like to run a good 7-7 split of Initiates and Neophytes for the stabby squad, but then it becomes an issue to actually get them into combat. I strongly believe that for a close combat unit to be effective, it needs to charge the turn after it enters the board at the very latest. A footslogging Crusader squad would probably struggle to do that without a transport...

 

I took a unit of 10 because I intended to put them in a 12-seating transport with both the captain and Lieutenant.

[Margulix]

Hey there, fellow Templar!

 

Actually i tried various combinations of crusaders squad, and they are weak... Only good option is: LRC, 2 crusader squads with 2 fists and meltaguns, 5 sword brothers with Hammers and sheilds, Helbrecht. This is wery mean squad that can tear up skulls open, once they charge.

 

las-plas sounds good on paper, but usually these guys will cheer on backline, shooting lascannon once in a while. Very lazy homescoring unit.

 

Also i like leviathan dread in Droppod - with rerolls on charge you get, your opponent will cry tears of blood.

 

About models - i use scratchbuild for Helbrecht (hate his original model too), for Grimaldus and repainted Sigismung for EC. )

 

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by Margulix

[Jacques Corbin]

I'd like to run a good 7-7 split of Initiates and Neophytes for the stabby squad, but then it becomes an issue to actually get them into combat. I strongly believe that for a close combat unit to be effective, it needs to charge the turn after it enters the board at the very latest. A footslogging Crusader squad would probably struggle to do that without a transport...

 

I took a unit of 10 because I intended to put them in a 12-seating transport with both the captain and Lieutenant.

Tide (how I imagine it)

 

Grimaldus

 

Lieutenant (Castellan): MC Bolter, Chainsword swapped for Teeth of Terra

 

Crusader Squad: Bolt Pistols and Chainswords/Combat Blades, Power Maul, Power Sword and Plasma Pistol on Sword Brother

 

Crusader Squad: Bolt Pistols and Chainswords/Combat Blades, Power Maul, Power Sword and Plasma Pistol on Sword Brother

 

Cenobytes

 

Apothecary

 

Ironclad: Dreadnought Chainfist, Meltagun, Hurricane Bolters, 2 HK Missiles, Assault Launchers

 

Company Ancient: Chainsword (for 4 Attacks) or Power Weapons of choice, relic Standard for 1CP

 

 

That is what I would build, to start anyways. That Castellan will be cheap as chips, and hitting on a reroll able 2+ as long as Grimaldus is nearby, and gets 3+d3 attacks at S5 AP-2, and 2D. Statistically, he will get at least one roll of 6 on a turn for yet another attack. I mean, if you can squeeze the Emperor's Champion in there too, you will have a real meat-grinder.

 

The Ironclad will be really scary. With Grimaldus nearby, the Dreadnought Combat Weapon is redundant, so go Hurricane Bolters, even though they are now the cost of 2 Melta Bombs. That Chainfist swings 4 times, at S12, at 4D per wound. That will wreck a Landraider, especially with Grimaldus letting him reroll to hit, and the Castellan letting him reroll 1s to wound. So does your opponent shoots him, either of the 2 Crusader Squads, or perhaps the Cenobytes? Not likely the Cenobytes, because we all know a lot of players obsess over points spent to kill a certain amount of points.

 

Now support them with a LRC, with Helbrecht, 7 Hammernators, and an Apothecary, running AGGRESSIVELY up the board, and now the pressure mounts as your opponent decides what each of his units is going to shoot.

 

Long range Fire Support? I prefer Lascannons. Dreadnought, or Venerable, with Twin Lascannons and Missile Launcher. How about a Stormtalon, or 2, with Twin Assault Cannon, and 2 Lascannons? That's right, not Twin Lascannons that both must target the same unit, but 2 Lascannons that can each target a different unit or the same unit. Strafing Run let's you move and still hit on a 3+ vs non-fliers, or 2+ if you hover. Oh no, 2 more scary targets for your opponent to shoot at. Does he have enough shooting to kill them all on turn 1? Not likely...

[Schlitzaf]

You should have third tide squad atleast or two 7-12 Man Fire Support or Intercessors. Tide Squads are meant to move up board and basically not die. You can use a mix of Cenos and other Battle Immunity’s. Ultimately functional Tide should be one threats among many. The LRC/Helbrect/Raider Combo is actually an example of how to do that (personably I’d rather 2-3 Reivars Squads ‘shrug’). But yeah, Tide lists function as threat saturation. Crusader Squads once impact hit like a truck. But you need several threats to as well. Preferably cheap ones. But going PuesdoStars work too.

 

Through I actually a question; which warlord trait you folks taking? I like Angel of Death or Rites of War. I can never decided which one I like more.*

 

*I will note my community let’s me use Helm as buffing Traits but I’ve been spending time practicing it as not. For tournaments coming up sense I finally have time. Through if you wanted to be inane, you could argue, because the rules say the datasheet contains a Units rules, and the WT is a rule gained, so it is part of dataslate /shrug

Edited January 23, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[Radioactive Toy]

Thanks so much for the advice. I'll take it into account. I'll have to test the foot-slogging Crusaders to see how they measure up. The only way they aren't going to be shot to bits as they cross the table is if the enemy is forced to spend their shooting on something else, which is not too hard to make them do with the scary vehicles available in the SM codex.

 

I could try applying a strategy similar to the old "Distraction Carnifex", where I present a juicy target that I want my opponent to waste their shooting on, while my main threat is actually the infantry on foot. I like the idea of deep-striking Hammernators, too, because they would make a good potential "Carnifex". If they make the 9" re-rollable charge, that's fantastic, if not, the enemy spends all turn shooting at them while a tide of Crusaders advances across the table.

 

Could work?

[Schlitzaf]

Essentially yeah, or they shoot your tide Squads, and your Deep Strikes make the Charge the following turn. I like Reivars for this Role, dirt cheap and have wounds to take return fire over Assault Squads. You want atleast 3 Units to drop so one make its in. It’s 27% normally with our tactics it’s about 40%-47% (i don’t know how to calculate the rerolls here on top of head). You pass 27% of the time normally, meaning you fail 73%. Of that 73% failed, the reroll will pass 27% (or a 5/6ish of 1/3). So the rerolls will pass 20%, 27% + 20% = 47%. That seems weird to me because I know 50% w/ Reroll is 75%. (4 hit 2, reroll 2 hit more time, 3/4).

[Firepower]

That role is largely what hammernators are for :tu:

[Schlitzaf]

Too expensive for my taste. I prefer having two squads vs just one. Hammers should not be distraction fexes, that should be well your hammer. If I didn’t run Primaris. I’d something like 7-8 Man Assault Marine Squads (Yes over Vangaurd. At 8 Man the Vangaurd, 2 extra Points pay for a 3rd Model or in this case the PlasPistols). With Triple PlasPistols. It’s a 149 Point Unit, but at 8 Men it is reasonable durable. You could throw in a Evis/PowSword for 3 PowWeapon Attacks in addition at 175 or just run them naked entirely at 128 beside Pack. I had success early this Edition with Double Reivars and TriHammer + DoubleTwinClaw. I drop Terminators for some other things (Deathriders and later Admech). This was pre-approved. So nowadays? It’ll be properly be even better.

[Firepower]

I disagree.  It's not that Hammers are purely a distraction force.  It is just one of their benefits.  They are a beach head unit that effectively 'dominates' whatever area they land in.  That is to say, they control the initiative there.  They are too dangerous to be ignored, so your opponent has to address them, either with shooting, a charge, or by running away.  In that sense, they are a distraction, but you can rely on them to endure well enough that they are still dangerous after your opponent's reaction.

 

That being said, Hammers won't survive if they are the only thing close to your opponent's army.  That is the role of sacrificial lambs.  Hammers are too expensive and too useful to be relegated to that sort of distraction role.