Vindicators MK2

[Captain Idaho]

I'm a big fan of Vindicators as a theme. They're very Space Marines in that they're a tough little unit that packs a punch up close. Days gone by they used to be the premium killer weapon system in a Space Marines army but have fell out of favour as time marched on.

 

Since reading Betrayer I fell in love with the idea if Ultamarines standing firm with Vindicators as back up against a tide of traitors. Best moment in the book for me.

 

Now, the purpose of this thread is to discuss 2 elements to the Vindicator -

 

1) tactics and strategy to get the most out of the unit.

 

2) what small fixes would make it a decent piece of kit.

 

I'm not sold on the tank for 125pts. For slightly more I can get a Predator with Heavy Bolters and do serious long ranged damage to single targets as well as shred infantry.

 

However I'm open to the idea it isn't so bad. D6 shots isn't terrible against 5+ units. Against single targets it's essentially a shorter ranged Neutron Cannon Onager (though without the minimum 3 damage).

 

What sort of use are people getting out of it and it what sort of lists?

 

Incidentally, it looks like a trio of them could work as an anti-clump unit - able to nuke shooting bases.

 

***

 

I would like to see fixes to it though. It's an amazing piece of kit if you roll 6s for shots but it lacks punch for the most part. Killing 3 Orks won't scare anyone!

 

I'd like 2 changes to really make it worth those 125pts:

 

- Either auto hitting units without the fly keyword, which is very thematic, or an extra die of shots per vehicle. Remember it's only 24" range which is a hindrance compared to most armies.

 

- Change the Stratagem! I shouldn't HAVE to take 3 units just to get some fluff inspired Stratagem. There's a multitude of ways to do it.

[Race Bannon]

This thread has my support because ... Vindicators.

[Captain Idaho]

I know, right?

 

Those little siege guns used to scare everyone. No one wanted to be hit by one.

 

I like fear. :)

[Kallas]

Perhaps, on the number of shots front, it could (instead of getting d6 vs larger units) have damage carry over against 1W units? Or it could be vs Infantry without the FLY keyword?

 

Basically give it some lethality against mobs by having a kill range of 0-18, instead of 0-6?

 

Demolisher Cannons should be terrifying weapons to big groups. They're not, as is (though they actually seem ok vs single targets now, where they used to be awful!).

[Ipsen]

Was thinking about this a little while ago or rather was trying to think of what might get me to refurbish/replace my old vindicators. My problem was that there's far too much that does what it's trying to do but better. So maybe pushing it into a slightly different niche that isn't already filled by lascannons like perhaps a space marine version of mortal wound area denial. A couple of other races have something similar in the toxic miasma some deathguard units get and tyranid biovores with their spores. The linebreaker strategem is sort of this already but with a few too many prerequisites to make it generally useful. I was thinking maybe reduce it to just 2 vindicators or even just one and have it influence subsequent turns in some way. If the opponent stays in that area they eat more wounds or are slowed or something.

 

edit. actually i quite like that. make it one vindicator one cp but as a trade off have it take effect on the players subsequent shooting phase. enemy avoids the area or eats some wounds.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Ipsen

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah a Mortal Wound weapon system is cool. It is a huge cannon!

[Race Bannon]

Here's my thing: this is not for an all-comers list. Period.

 

As said above, it's great against big units so should be used against them. Frankly, Orks and (heretic) Guard. Otherwise, for thematic games.

 

But a PUG? The servitors can spend the day cleaning the tracks with a toothbrush, in my very humble opinion.

[Captain Idaho]

What's a PUG?

 

I like the idea it's just a great big cannon that hurts things. In original Epic incarnation I believe the thing was a short ranged but brutal platform able to finish Mega Gargants and smash infantry and vehicles alike.

 

I'd like it to be a cannon that shreds things it hits. Subtle changes like an extra Die shot, auto hits etc work since it becomes very fiercesome and become a solid choice again.

[Toxichobbit]

What's a PUG?

 

I like the idea it's just a great big cannon that hurts things. In original Epic incarnation I believe the thing was a short ranged but brutal platform able to finish Mega Gargants and smash infantry and vehicles alike.

 

I'd like it to be a cannon that shreds things it hits. Subtle changes like an extra Die shot, auto hits etc work since it becomes very fiercesome and become a solid choice again.

 

PUG - Pick Up Game (orignially Pick Up Group from online gaming). It's a game against an unknown opponent and/or unknown army, usually not planned in advance. Like going down to a GW or LGS and playing against whoever is available. Not applied to tournament games, because although they're against unknown opponents and armies they're arranged in advance by default of using a tournament system. PUG often implies all comers lists will be used.

[Jacques Corbin]

It's a siege tank! I agree with not needing 3 for a fluffy Stratagem. I would prefer 1CP for removing the benefit of cover from ruins or a piece of terrain, but not intact buildings. By "intact" I mean not "dilapidated" as defined in Chapter Approved.

 

See, this would be Uber fluffy. You shoot at an entrenched enemy, and the survivors are no longer entrenched, making the job of a nearby Tactical or Scout Squad much easier. As a siege tank, that is what it would do, sap the enemy's ability to take cover, right?

 

I mean, wouldn't y'all buy more Vindicators if they could do as I described?

[Firepower]

Ahh, my darling, deprived Vindies.

 

I loved them up until 8th, regardless of how effective or ineffective rules made them.  In truth, cover rules in previous editions resulted in largely the same results despite pie plates: land a shell on 10 Guardsmen, wound 1 because knee high walls counter crater-making artillery that lands behind the wall.  And then of course there was the chain-glancing...

 

But they were great intimidators, which synergized fantastically (and thematically) with an LRC assault, confusing target priority and getting up close and personal.

 

As for how to recalibrate them, I've heard some interesting ideas float around.  One thing is changing the D6 for larger targets to 2D3.  Keeping the ceiling the same while increasing the basement makes them more worthwhile, and really, that wouldn't be something so grand that it would need to raise the price of the Vindi.  Another idea would be to add another d3 for every increment of 5 models in the target unit.  It's something that would rarely come up, but the larger the unit, the more hits it would've generally taken from a Template.

 

As for the Stratagem, it makes sense that it requires multiple Vindicators, because it represents conjoined fire, not some special shell that the Vindicator has in the trunk.  That said, I think 2 Vindis should be sufficient.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Firepower

[Lord_Caerolion]

I do think Blast weapons in general need some sort of "+D3 shots per every 5 models in the target unit, up to a maximum of X", where X changes depending on the weapon in question, or something similar. High explosives should never be completely out-shone as anti-infantry.

[Firepower]

I think the x+dy model works for most weapons. It's rather silly that Vindis don't have an 'x' in that equation, but I think the large blast template replacement does justify a y multiplier for larger units.  I don't think the same could be said for flamers, plasma cannons and the like, really.  Their templates were never large enough to hope for more than 3 models on average.  Well, flamers maybe, but not plasma cannons.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Firepower

[Lord_Caerolion]

So have there been a stacking blast, and a stackingX blast, depending on the size of the weapon. Make flamers be "D3 shots, plus an additional D3 if the target squad is 10 or more models", and "large blasts" like the Vindicator be "D6 plus an additional D3 for every full 5 models in the target unit.."

[Firepower]

Considering guns like the Demolisher Cannon used to have scatter dice, a lower number for a 5 man unit (d3) makes sense.  D6 on a 5 model unit would be rather extreme, with the damage/strength of the gun.  D6 versus a 5 man unit could potentially wipe out whole squads in one shot, with much better chances than the gun had pre-8th edition.

 

The lack of chaos from scatter is both a positive and a negative.  You can no longer accidentally hit units or hit multiple units because it scatters off target, but you can also no longer accidentally shoot yourself.  

 

Anyway, I realize we are avoiding the first question: how to make the most out of the Vindicator.  Unfortunately...I have no idea.  For the points, there are simply much better options around, and the Stratagem consumes valuable CP better spent elsewhere (except perhaps for Ultras, who have CP growing out of their ears).  I've run my sweet babies a few times in 8th, and with the exception of one very lucky round of shooting, they've never done much of anything.  Adding insult to injury, in the game I played against a Guard horde, they may have racked up 5 models killed between them.  As it currently stands, they're better tank killers than they are horde killers.  But there is simply so much chance involved between the number of shots and the total damage that you can't rely on them to do anything well.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Firepower

[Captain Idaho]

D6 killing a 5 man squad is fine for dealing with MSU spam mind.

 

I just like the auto hitting element for having such a massive shell.

 

Would make Leman Russ Demolishers pretty nasty but then it doesn't have to apply to them. We got a special vehicle designed for sieges etc.

 

As for the Stratagem changes... I'd like a 1CP version that grants it the melta rule or something. Magma shells.

 

Or just give it D3 mortal wounds.

 

On the automatic hits against non-flyers.

[Firepower]

Really, the Stratagem Vindicators have already is pretty strong, and not far removed from the Formation of 7th edition.  The "on a 4+" bit is rough, because if memory serves the Formation shot didn't scatter, but seeing as their mortal wounds it sorta balances out.  The hitch is that it requires you to take 3 Vindicators which are otherwise mediocre on a good day, and the Stratagem is defunct if any one of them dies, is locked in combat, or they split up...

[StrummersGhost]

I loved the vindicators in 7th and used 3 of them regularly. Then 8th came along and they've never come out of their case. I'd like to try them out again though. The only change I could suggest that hasn't already been mentioned, would be to lose the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons. A subtle difference some might say but it would go a long way in regards to making them viable personally.

[Firepower]

They had Power of the Machine Spirit as an optional upgrade for a long time, but that was a different rule from what it is now.  But seeing as the old version is defunct with the removal of glancing, stunning and whatnot, that would be the logical extension anyway.

 

As for using them now, the only thing I can really see them having much use for is hunting vehicles or other high wound models....rather the reverse of their intended role, really, and there are certainly better options for the job.  Having to roll up within 24" of the target certainly doesn't help with that job, either.  But the one time I turned a Hellhound, and by explody extension, the rest of the table's center into a smoldering crater with one was certainly gratifying

Edited January 30, 2018 by Firepower

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I loved the vindicators in 7th and used 3 of them regularly. Then 8th came along and they've never come out of their case. I'd like to try them out again though. The only change I could suggest that hasn't already been mentioned, would be to lose the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons. A subtle difference some might say but it would go a long way in regards to making them viable personally.

Play Iron Hands. That's our Chapter specific stratagem.

[Claws and Effect]

I want to like them, but I just can't.

 

Too limited in use for me, and a tank with a 24" main gun goes totally counter to my play style. If I'm fielding a tank it needs to either have long range or the ability to shoot out of LOS.

[StrummersGhost]

If they had POTMS I'd take a punt on them I think.

 

 

I loved the vindicators in 7th and used 3 of them regularly. Then 8th came along and they've never come out of their case. I'd like to try them out again though. The only change I could suggest that hasn't already been mentioned, would be to lose the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons. A subtle difference some might say but it would go a long way in regards to making them viable personally.

Play Iron Hands. That's our Chapter specific stratagem.

I used to play Iron Hands in 7th...but I jumped ship to smurfs when 8th hit

[MeltaRange]

I think that one can absolutely build a case that bringing 3 is viable.  The 3d3 mortal wounds factor is enormous and (unless someone can prove me wrong I will continue to play as though) I can advance, pop smoke and still use the Linebreaker stratagem.  So IMO, they can't really be ignored as long as there are 3 and you really do have to pump in some pretty good firepower into them to take one out.  Maybe run them with a forgeworld dread and force the opponent to choose where their anti-tank goes.  If they go for a Vindi and kill one, ok you can't use the stratagem but instead just pop Wisdom of the Ancients on your full strength Leviathan/Deredeo.  If someone plopped down 4 T8 models with 11+ wounds each...could your army really afford to fire some of their anti-tank at the inferior model and leave a Leviathan free to roam?

 

Linebreaker is also kind of a meta-buster in that there's a lot of bubble hammer going on.  If you need a unit within 6" of another unit for some benefit, then those units are both getting hit by Linebreaker's 3" radius.

 

The fact of the matter is that they are only 130ish points (always take hunter killers) and actually do have the POTENTIAL to deal massive damage with a little luck. Tournament worthy?  Maybe not. Certainly viable at that price point. They aren't such a huge investment and thus can be used as a sacrificial lamb or even like many people use rhinos and screw up people's plans by charging into a unit and simply tying it up. (esp if they are severely wounded and hitting on 6+ after moving)

 

Alternatively, the 24" range doesn't matter too much if you're playing against an army that's trying to get in your face.  They're a pretty good counter-punch against heavy deep strikers like Terminators or Crisis Suits if you can bubble wrap them successfully. 

 

TL;DR I think they are pretty if taken as 3 in the right (aggressive) list.  They are also a fun and bring another tactical layer to the game.

 

I wouldn't mind something cool like a rule where it always does the maximum number of shots at < half range, or something like that.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

I think that one can absolutely build a case that bringing 3 is viable.  The 3d3 mortal wounds factor is enormous and (unless someone can prove me wrong I will continue to play as though) I can advance, pop smoke and still use the Linebreaker stratagem.

 

I think it's legal at the moment, but in the past (7th ed) GW has ruled that if you're already prevented from doing something by one action, you can't perform another action in place of that already-voided action, so you can't use two "instead of shooting" actions at the same time. After all, the Linebreaker Bombardment is essentially just a special way of combining the shooting, so if you can't fire due to launching smoke, you can't fire to combine your explosions into a mega-explosion.

[Firepower]

Well the way the Stratagem is worded, it doesn't say it counts as shooting, but simply that the Vindicators "cannot fire their Demolisher Cannons this phase".  However, it goes on to say "instead, select a visible" etc.  The "instead" implies that it's an "instead of shooting normally" rule, but it neglects to say so explicitly.  RAW, you could even use the Stratagem while engaged in combat, after falling back, whatevs, because it doesn't explicitly state that the Vindicators be able to fire their guns.  RAI, no, it's an "instead of firing" rule.

 

Definitely needs a FAQ.  Someone call GW :teehee:

Edited February 2, 2018 by Firepower