What was Russ/SW role before and after the Heresy?

[Kinstryfe]

The were most certainly executioners for the emperor. With that said, they failed miserably at their job when it really mattered.

They are also the most rediculously redundant legion and overall worst choice to be the emprah's executioners. I cannot for the life of me understand why the emperor would have the boisterous, half drunk group of guys that howl be his secret hit squad instead of the three different legions of guys that can actually keep secrets.

I'm not trying to rag on the Space Wolves here, but I'm having trouble seeing how they are better at secret assassinations than the guys clad in midnight that attack from the shadows and leave gruesome reminders of what happens to traitors, the guys wearing black that can snipe the target and also strike from the shadows, or the guys that can infiltrate a group, have plans within plans, at are the absolute best spymasters in 40k.

I don't think the Vylka was meant to be The Emperor's /assassins/ by any means. There are other, better options for that, including actual assassins that he has enough faith in to send after fallen Primarchs. I'm fairly certain that the knowledge and reputation of the Wolves as a fearsome Legion who will destroy anything they are loosed upon would be the whole point. If you want a surgical strike and mystery surrounding a death, you send an assassin. If you want to make sure your soldiers know the penalty for treason, and your enemies know the cost of opposing you, you want a big scary weapon that they know you won't hesitate to use. Ideally, you'll never have to use the weapon because just the threat of it will deter opposition. The Wolves were, allegedly, that weapon.

[bluntblade]

There's a simple answer to that. They were never meant to be secret. Heck, in the Rangdan Xenocides the Wolves seem to have been tasked with purging entire formerly Imperial systems. The Alpha Legion and Raven Guard lacked their sheer power, and the AL we know little about until Alpharius appears late in the Crusade. One thing we do know is that they engaged in actions which seem to have been overly elaborate at times, just to prove they could, when the Wolves would simply do what was necessary.

 

All of which, I have to say, makes me more sympathetic to Russ' actions in Betrayer. Never understood how so much hate for Russ derives from a scene which is clearly about how damaged Angron has become. :cuss's sake, the World Eaters have inflicted massacres on their own allies at this point.

Edited January 30, 2018 by bluntblade

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

 

Pre PB, what were the Heresy era Wolves? The general concept seems to have been same as the 40k Wolves. 'Nice' Space Marines (hello Salamander attribute) with a norse/wolf theme and a rebellious/chaotic good streak. Should they have been left like that? What should have been done different, especially as 'why were the Wolves sent to Prospero instead of another Legion?' would still need answering (which, as I've said before, I reckon is the initial reason for the 'executioner' angle)?

 

So yeah, I can certainly understand not liking the book, or the change in character of the Wolves. But 'Abnett was ripping off the NLs/WEs' doesn't really add up for me, and I just don't get the level of vehemence and hatedom that's crept up around this issue. The attempts to 'fix' it just seem to add fuel to it, especially Night of the Wolf, as that's the only thing I've seen to rival PB itself in the arguments it instigates.

 

 

Its not even about the Wolves, I think its about my absolute disgust for PB and how it presented the wolves.

 

What could they have been instead? I'm no author, but I dont think it would have even been that hard to make them unique.

 

Make them utterly savage, primal, ignorant (see: We dont draw from the Warp, we draw from Fenris which ALSO apparently was reinforced by a 40K release...) and LOYAL, completely, and fully.

 

If Abnett had written them that way, with clear perceptive differences between Legions, there would have been none of this angst that has followed us since 2009 (wow, I'm old).

 

Instead,

 

He wrote them as APPEARING Savage and out of Control, but they arent, they are just pretending someone has that quoted in their signature, its like a nail in my eye every time I see it. I may even have put them on ignore so I can avoid it the other day...

 

He wrote them as the most terrifying of marines in the eyes of the common soldier, soldiers who have seen other marines no less.

 

He wrote them as the legion willing to go the farthest, to do anything, and any pretense at loyalty was not even questioned, or implied. "none will go farther than us".

 

So its not so much how he presented the legion. After all the hardcore norse/viking thing he went for was great. However he made no effort AT ALL to balanced them against the other legions, and better authors have handled it better since.

 

I'd also argue that anyone having issue with Night of the Wolf misses the point greatly, but to me, thats practically worth a novel (and all the bickering we do after) just on its own.

 

 

I really hope you don't have it out for me personally just because I happen to LIKE and ENJOY and BELIEVE Prospero Burns description as my basis for 30K Space wolves. And my signature wasn't meant to insult or poke your eye out, it just happen to be a very nice quote which I feel fits their character, never mind the hypocrisies.

 

Back on topic, it so happens I just bought and read Leman Russ the Great Wolf only two days ago. Quite a beautiful story, notwithstanding the screw ups of the Wolves at the Battle of Dulan, before, during and after the battle leading to the famous brawl/duel between Russ and Lion. The OP asked what was Russ' supposed role before and after the heresy. Without saying that the spoiler below is the absolute truth, since the scene described was basically a dream sequence......

 

The whole chapter was a dream sequence after having his lights punched out by Lion. Leman Russ was dreaming, the text doesn't say whether it is before or after the siege of terra, although I think its after because Russ is blaming himself for not being at the siege.

 

I think he has a vision of the Emperor, back when before he went to the stars to take control of the legion. They were walking side by side. Emperor I think was addressed as the Wanderer. He was grief stricken saying he had failed his purpose to protect the Emperor. The Wanderer replied that it was never Russ role to protect the Emperor, but to protect what the Emperor had built.

 

 

This I believe gave some closure to Russ after the siege and may have resulted in him shaping the Space Wolves subsequently into a chapter famed for heroism and protection rather than outright brutality.

 

something even more awesome happened afterwards.

 

 

After this vision, Russ is met by Lion and nearly killed by him via sword through hearts. But he did it willingly, half suicidal, and half wanting to resolve the bad blood at Dulan. Which apparently they did afterwards. This pleases me because I thought this touching moment of noblebright had been retconned long ago, but Chris Wright saw fit to put it there, lending credence that maybe afterwards, Russ and Lion did become friends.

 

 

Again, not saying this is the true role of Russ, I'm merely stating what was written by Chris Wright in the Primarch Series involving Russ.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Kasper_Hawser

[Jarl Caldersson]

I tried not to comment as to not deter the conversation but I think I can voice what I see so far.

 

 

As m_r_parker said maybe "executioner" is a harsh term and perhaps "enforcer" is better as he was sent to attempt to enforce Angron to stop using the butchers nails and enforce Magnus return to Terra. Kind of like the police force for the astartes.

 

This may not be the SW original intent, but it is how it happened. The SW from what I understand pre-russ would give chase to the enemy and run them down. Maybe their original intention was to outflanking enemies in a shock troop manner but with the 2nd legion going rogue had to take place of the enforcer.

 

As for Russ not being sneaky about executions: of course and he shouldn't. Look at the fear it put into even Sanguinius about him being purged for his red thirst, or how depressed Magnus became when he realized what he did and what was coming. By being extremely public about it but enforcing people to be quiet about it only causes more fear. It's a great tactic to enforce discipline through fear, not the best way imo.

 

As for loyalty, Dorn and Russ have very 2 different kinds of loyalty. Dorn wants to learn and questions the emperor to understand. He is by far more honorable and wants to appear that way. Russ is blindly loyal, dirty jobs have to get done and you don't want a proud defender to be smeared. Russ could be told to do something and he will do it, without question. It does wear on Russ eventually. I do not think I have ever read SW saying they are the most loyal, I may have missed it.

 

As for SWs being feral drunken idiots, I'm sorry but you just fell into Russ's trap. Russ cultivated this persona so other legions would underestimate the wolves. Sure they drank and rowdy but when it came to business they sobered up and thought straight. A few primarchs have said that everyone underestimates the wolves and it would be a folly to do so. Russ kept himself as a wild card.

 

I am sure I missed something and will edit later if I remember.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Jarl Caldersson

[Kasper_Hawser]

I tried not to comment as to not deter the conversation but I think I can voice what I see so far.

 

 

As m_r_parker said maybe "executioner" is a harsh term and perhaps "enforcer" is better as he was sent to attempt to enforce Angron to stop using the butchers nails and enforce Magnus return to Terra. Kind of like the police force for the astartes.

 

This may not be the SW original intent, but it is how it happened. The SW from what I understand pre-russ would give chase to the enemy and run them down. Maybe their original intention was to outflanking enemies in a shock troop manner but with the 2nd legion going rogue had to take place of the enforcer.

 

As for loyalty, Dorn and Russ have very 2 different kinds of loyalty. Dorn wants to learn and questions the emperor to understand. He is by far more honorable and wants to appear that way. Russ is blindly loyal, dirty jobs have to get done and you don't want a proud defender to be smeared. Russ could be told to do something and he will do it, without question. It does wear on Russ eventually. I do not think I have ever read SW saying they are the most loyal, I may have missed it.

 

As for SWs being feral drunken idiots, I'm sorry but you just fell into Russ's trap. Russ cultivated this persona so other legions would underestimate the wolves. Sure they drank and rowdy but when it came to business they sobered up and thought straight. A few primarchs have said that everyone underestimates the wolves and it would be a folly to do so. Russ kept himself as a wild card.

 

I am sure I missed something and will edit later if I remember.

 

Can't remember which Primarch saw the wolves for what they were, not what they appeared to be, but I think Guilliman was among them. Not that many in this board respect Bobby G, but I think its telling that one of the most logical primarch could see pass the mask Russ painted himself and the Wolves. Not sure who else though.

 

Actually I thought Dorn was blindly loyal as well, I don't really see him asking a lot of questions for his father. The two are actually similar in the sense the Emperor's word was normally enough for them, no need to give them honors or titles. True Dorn got a lot of prizes but he never asked for them, content in his role as defender, though this would come to bite him in his yellow behind similar to Russ' role as loyal attack dog would eventually alienate him.

[Jarl Caldersson]

My impression is Guilliman saw Russ as a asset and a force to be reckoned, Fulgrim suspected Russ to be a genius, Horus knew Russ was a effective leader in combat

 

I don't mean questioning like doubting but rather learning. What and how to do things better. It's obvious that the big difference between Dorn and Perturabo is Dorn would ask for help and how to do things better while Perturabo would keep up the same strategies that would bite his shiny metal :cuss against the Hrud.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Jarl Caldersson

[Marshal Rohr]

The role of the space wolves is to be consistently portrayed inconsistently on a spectrum from silly to serious. Cursed by their own popularity, even the sculptors can’t please the fans. The ultimate example of audience partipation and subconscious projection.

[Xenith]

The were most certainly executioners for the emperor. With that said, they failed miserably at their job when it really mattered.

 

They are also the most rediculously redundant legion and overall worst choice to be the emprah's executioners. I cannot for the life of me understand why the emperor would have the boisterous, half drunk group of guys that howl be his secret hit squad instead of the three different legions of guys that can actually keep secrets.

 

I'm not trying to rag on the Space Wolves here, but I'm having trouble seeing how they are better at secret assassinations than the guys clad in midnight that attack from the shadows and leave gruesome reminders of what happens to traitors, the guys wearing black that can snipe the target and also strike from the shadows, or the guys that can infiltrate a group, have plans within plans, at are the absolute best spymasters in 40k.

 

I think you miss the point. You're confusing assasination with Execution. An execution is a public spectacle. Loud, messy, and to prove a point.

[Amun Ra]

I tried not to comment as to not deter the conversation but I think I can voice what I see so far.

 

 

As m_r_parker said maybe "executioner" is a harsh term and perhaps "enforcer" is better as he was sent to attempt to enforce Angron to stop using the butchers nails and enforce Magnus return to Terra. Kind of like the police force for the astartes.

 

This may not be the SW original intent, but it is how it happened. The SW from what I understand pre-russ would give chase to the enemy and run them down. Maybe their original intention was to outflanking enemies in a shock troop manner but with the 2nd legion going rogue had to take place of the enforcer.

 

As for Russ not being sneaky about executions: of course and he shouldn't. Look at the fear it put into even Sanguinius about him being purged for his red thirst, or how depressed Magnus became when he realized what he did and what was coming. By being extremely public about it but enforcing people to be quiet about it only causes more fear. It's a great tactic to enforce discipline through fear, not the best way imo.

 

 

That's how I see it as well. By using the term Executioner it automatically put people off, thinking this put the Wolves at the top of the pile as Marines +1. As Prospero showed, that wasnt really the case at all. They took a significant beating getting the job done against a legion caught unprepared. They really are just one of 18 legions, all with their own strengths and weakness's 

 

The reason they would have been used was for several reasons, but I imagine the primary one would be they could be trusted to go only as far as was needed unlike some of their cousins.

 

Personally, even as a fan of the Thousand Sons, I love the portrayal of the Wolves in PB. That and A Thousand Sons really made them interesting for the first time. They just dont care what people think of them, and even play up to the way people perceived them, but it all felt like an act, so people would underestimate them when push came to shove. While Russ came across as possibly the most personable Primarch at that time. It's a shame they have seemed to drift away from that angle, I thought it was a great way to portray them.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

I tried not to comment as to not deter the conversation but I think I can voice what I see so far.

 

 

As m_r_parker said maybe "executioner" is a harsh term and perhaps "enforcer" is better as he was sent to attempt to enforce Angron to stop using the butchers nails and enforce Magnus return to Terra. Kind of like the police force for the astartes.

 

This may not be the SW original intent, but it is how it happened. The SW from what I understand pre-russ would give chase to the enemy and run them down. Maybe their original intention was to outflanking enemies in a shock troop manner but with the 2nd legion going rogue had to take place of the enforcer.

 

As for Russ not being sneaky about executions: of course and he shouldn't. Look at the fear it put into even Sanguinius about him being purged for his red thirst, or how depressed Magnus became when he realized what he did and what was coming. By being extremely public about it but enforcing people to be quiet about it only causes more fear. It's a great tactic to enforce discipline through fear, not the best way imo.

 

 

That's how I see it as well. By using the term Executioner it automatically put people off, thinking this put the Wolves at the top of the pile as Marines +1. As Prospero showed, that wasnt really the case at all. They took a significant beating getting the job done against a legion caught unprepared. They really are just one of 18 legions, all with their own strengths and weakness's 

 

The reason they would have been used was for several reasons, but I imagine the primary one would be they could be trusted to go only as far as was needed unlike some of their cousins.

 

Personally, even as a fan of the Thousand Sons, I love the portrayal of the Wolves in PB. That and A Thousand Sons really made them interesting for the first time. They just dont care what people think of them, and even play up to the way people perceived them, but it all felt like an act, so people would underestimate them when push came to shove. While Russ came across as possibly the most personable Primarch at that time. It's a shame they have seemed to drift away from that angle, I thought it was a great way to portray them.

 

 

Just glad I'm not the only one who appreciated PB. The hate some have for PB is palpable most of the time.

[Slan Drakkos]

 

The were most certainly executioners for the emperor. With that said, they failed miserably at their job when it really mattered.

They are also the most rediculously redundant legion and overall worst choice to be the emprah's executioners. I cannot for the life of me understand why the emperor would have the boisterous, half drunk group of guys that howl be his secret hit squad instead of the three different legions of guys that can actually keep secrets.

I'm not trying to rag on the Space Wolves here, but I'm having trouble seeing how they are better at secret assassinations than the guys clad in midnight that attack from the shadows and leave gruesome reminders of what happens to traitors, the guys wearing black that can snipe the target and also strike from the shadows, or the guys that can infiltrate a group, have plans within plans, at are the absolute best spymasters in 40k.

 

I think you miss the point. You're confusing assasination with Execution. An execution is a public spectacle. Loud, messy, and to prove a point.

the the night lords could have still done it better than the space wolves. Meanwhile, the space wolves (who are just fine with fighting on even terms) should've taken the night lords place as enforcers of obedience through murder. Not only that, but it would've fit Curze and his doctrine of punishing the wicked to a T. Edited January 30, 2018 by Slan Drakkos

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it?

 

The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."

 

-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

Ed

[Slan Drakkos]

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it?

The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."

-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

Ed

I stand corrected. I would like to note, however, that portions of what Sevetar said sound very much like a perfect example of a slow execution. I doubt that anybody would step out of line if they witnessed the NL doing what Sevetar said they'd do.

 

Anyway, if the emperor wanted executioners, he could have had Angron take on the role and he would have done it with gusto. I think we can all agree that Russ and the Wolves, for all their failings, at least wouldn't put entire worlds to the blade like Angron did.

 

Heck, if you need an execution to be showy, why not have the emperor's children do it? If you need witnesses to be scared, why not have the deathguard do it?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

"Because we cannot be trusted. The Emperor needs a weapon that will never obey its own desires before the good of others. Most of all, he needs a weapon that will never bite the hand that feeds. We are not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor needs. The Wolves obey, when we might not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we couldn't. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.

 

The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does."

 

-- Eighth Captain Khârn, when asked why the World Eaters aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legion

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The Emperors Children lacked the numbers to be an effective execution force as they suffered a massive, near fatal, accident at their birth and that impacted their early role in the Great Crusade

 

Mortarion was looking for true justice when he first joined the Great Crusade. He wanted away from the monsters and tyrants that previously dominated Barbarus. His attitude and character would make for a poor executioner

[Calas Typhon]

"Because we cannot be trusted. The Emperor needs a weapon that will never obey its own desires before the good of others. Most of all, he needs a weapon that will never bite the hand that feeds. We are not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor needs. The Wolves obey, when we might not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we couldn't. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.

 

The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does."

 

-- Eighth Captain Khârn, when asked why the World Eaters aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legion

 

Bear in mind this is After the uniting with Angron and the bashing of nails into heads. If the Butchers nails were not an issue, the Warhounds would be the poster legion for destroyers of Legions. Lets just take the Cerberus Insurrection as an example.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

 

"Because we cannot be trusted. The Emperor needs a weapon that will never obey its own desires before the good of others. Most of all, he needs a weapon that will never bite the hand that feeds. We are not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor needs. The Wolves obey, when we might not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we couldn't. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.

 

The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does."

 

-- Eighth Captain Khârn, when asked why the World Eaters aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legion

Bear in mind this is After the uniting with Angron and the bashing of nails into heads. If the Butchers nails were not an issue, the Warhounds would be the poster legion for destroyers of Legions. Lets just take the Cerberus Insurrection as an example.

Very true.

Inferno states that the natures of both the War Hounds and Space Wolves would change upon the introduction of their Primarchs, essentially roles.

[Scribe]

Both of those were written as course correction, in response to the outcry. :p

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Bear in mind this is After the uniting with Angron and the bashing of nails into heads. If the Butchers nails were not an issue, the Warhounds would be the poster legion for destroyers of Legions. Lets just take the Cerberus Insurrection as an example.

 

Why? Because they took on some Thunder Warriors once when it's implied they may well have been the only Astartes to hand, as the GC was in the process of leaving Sol at the time? Why not go for the DAs as the "poster legion for destroyers of Legions", as it's fans seem to be convinced they were the guys, along with the Custodes, that actually purged the Thunder Regiments? Don't get me wrong, I like the War Hounds a lot, but 'they were the real executioners' has always seemed a stretch to me. Yes, they were held as a reserve force in the early days of the Legiones Astartes, potentially to keep recidivists in line, but that's hardly compelling evidence on its own imo. Especially when combined with what we know of the founding of the VI as part of the super secret 'Trefoil' Legions, it seems more likely that the VI were always intended for the role they came to fulfil. However we also know that the early VI had difficulties with its gene-seed, which led to one of the slowest growth rates of the early Legions (Inferno lists only the XX as being worse). So it seems most likely to me that the XII were a something of a stopgap/backup in that role, as the intended force just wasn't done cooking yet.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Leif Bearclaw

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Both of those were written as course correction, in response to the outcry. :p

Both of those were clarifications, for people who were unable to digest the new material ;)

[Calas Typhon]

Why? Because they took on some Thunder Warriors once when it's implied they may well have been the only Astartes to hand, as the GC was in the process of leaving Sol at the time? Why not go for the DAs as the "poster legion for destroyers of Legions", as it's fans seem to be convinced they were the guys, along with the Custodes, that actually purged the Thunder Regiments? Don't get me wrong, I like the War Hounds a lot, but 'they were the real executioners' has always seemed a stretch to me. Yes, they were held as a reserve force in the early days of the Legiones Astartes, potentially to keep recidivists in line, but that's hardly compelling evidence on its own imo. Especially when combined with what we know of the founding of the VI as part of the super secret 'Trefoil' Legions, it seems more likely that the VI were always intended for the role they came to fulfil. However we also know that the early VI had difficulties with its gene-seed, which led to one of the slowest growth rates of the early Legions (Inferno lists only the XX as being worse). So it seems most likely to me that the XII were a something of a stopgap/backup in that role, as the intended force just wasn't done cooking yet.

 

If you are going to kill a Legion, you would want the executioner to be as savage and relentless as possible with the ability to be called off if the situation demands it. The Cerberus Insurrection was a particularly troubling engagement in which Thunder Warriors were holding particularly strong ground. AFAIR in an extremely short amount of time, they were literally shredded through unending, heroic and relentless close combat which if you want a force like a legion out of the picture, that is exactly how you would do it. 

 

I will go into a bit more detail I suppose

The XII who were savage and bloody fighters in their own right, but centred around strong bonding between brothers, utter fearlessness in the face of any foe, no matter how strong and dedication to the eradication of a given target, they were butchers in their own right still though. They picked IIRC the most competative and aggressive of candidates, it lines up to the Legion being a dedicated force for removing troubling and quite horrible enemies. I am pretty sure there is a passage in one of the black books stating that they were held back in case rebellion, which you are right, on its own does not mean that they are dedicated executioners. But once you start linking why the Legion was formed from what information we have, it becomes a hell of a lot clearer (to me) that they are a weapon destruction of hard targets, which Astartes would definitely be. The difference between the Space Wolves and War Hounds at this point (before Russ) is the War Hounds are much more likely to be called back if situation is demanded. During the GC early years they became an axe to carve things out rather than a wave of death. They were incredibly disciplined as well iirc and pretty harsh on it and unlike most legions, kept themselves away from others. 

 

I will be honest, I am not exactly too knowledgeable about the Space Wolves, I have absorbed the fluff pre Russ though. I do know that the roles were literally reversed when Russ came into action. Its Highly probable that due to circumstances, for example, a Primarch being united with his legion and going rogue perhaps, The Warhounds were unable to fit that role due to not having a Primarch at hand and Russ took over. The Warhounds then take on role of butcher and get assigned the 13th expeditionary fleet. Its known that they form this after Russ, because Sanguinius is quoted on the muster rolls. 

 

Basically in a TL;DR

XII are the perfect legion for killing particularly hard to kill enemies, if the situation demanded it the leash could be put back on. Cerberus were a prime example of how they conduct war, rather than being a legion sent because they were executioners. Also due to recruitment factors, the XII would make a more likely choice of executioner at this time in the GC, as the VI as a choice were literal bloodthirsty berserkers who would have to literally be shot to get off an enemy.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Calas Typhon

[Scribe]

 

Both of those were written as course correction, in response to the outcry. :p

Both of those were clarifications, for people who were unable to digest the new material ;)

Hah, we all have our angles I suppose, but no that's not going to cut it for me. :D

[Baluc]

I'm going to try and read Inferno with a clear pallet (haven't touched anything HH fluff since the summer) and see what my impressions are. 

[Slan Drakkos]

The Emperors Children lacked the numbers to be an effective execution force as they suffered a massive, near fatal, accident at their birth and that impacted their early role in the Great Crusade

Mortarion was looking for true justice when he first joined the Great Crusade. He wanted away from the monsters and tyrants that previously dominated Barbarus. His attitude and character would make for a poor executioner

sorry, but his attitude was perfect for the role of an executioner. He didn't just want justice, he also was trying to look out for mankind and their best interests.

 

While we're at it, do you happen to have a reason behind why the Imperial Fists or White Scars couldn't have taken the job?

[Hellrender]

First things first:

 

1. Somebody in this thread said that Russ is a self styles as the most loyal primarch. This is atleast partly untrue, as several non-space wolf afiliated members have noted the loyalty of Russ.

 

2. With most legions hobbyists pick what they like. Nobody likes a legion to its full. And with this i mean, nobody likes every single novel, short story, book, etc every written about their Legion. However, somehow, a lot of people seem to dislike Wolves based on a singular representation. Wether that is Prospero Burns or what not.

 

That said, here are my 2 cents.

 

To me, the Wolves aren't publicly known as the executioners. But they have sanctioned atleast 1 of the lost legions. They were sent to deal with Angron. And they were sent to Prospero.

The word executioner, iirc, was first used by a space wolf. Not as a mark of pride, like: Look at us, we are the Executioners and will do anything. More like a hushed fact. Something not everybody knows, or should know. But something they have come to view themselves at. Here, i choose to keep my own fluff reference at. Just like i choose to ignore both Dark Angel BL books :)

 

I do not take Prospero Burns letter for letter. For me it established as the Legion that does go further than most. This is maybe not in full due to their loyalty, but also partly due to their very nature, which is full of aggression and savagery. If you are that aggressive, it is easier to go further too. However, where the World Eaters struggle to restrain that aggression, the Wolves use the Emperor's command as a reason to unshackle it. Other than that, the PB reinforced the viking theme in the VIth legion, and honestly, that is why i like the Wolves :)

 

We also have to remember that the numbers used in any of the Horus heresy representations over the years have changed a lot. chapters and companies have been upscaled, battles have become more apocalyptic, etc.