What was Russ/SW role before and after the Heresy?

[Scribe]

Its been years, but no, I do not believe he was sent after Angron.

 

He took that upon himself, and paid for it.

[Baluc]

 

The Emperors Children lacked the numbers to be an effective execution force as they suffered a massive, near fatal, accident at their birth and that impacted their early role in the Great Crusade

Mortarion was looking for true justice when he first joined the Great Crusade. He wanted away from the monsters and tyrants that previously dominated Barbarus. His attitude and character would make for a poor executioner

sorry, but his attitude was perfect for the role of an executioner. He didn't just want justice, he also was trying to look out for mankind and their best interests.

 

While we're at it, do you happen to have a reason behind why the Imperial Fists or White Scars couldn't have taken the job?

 

 

You are confusing the world that is, with the universe of the Imperium. Russ, and the Rout never espouse any idea of justice. Nor does the Emperor ever talk on the idea of 'Justice', ask the WB about the Emperor's sense of justice. In the time leading up to the Heresy I believe the role the SW held was simple at least in the eyes of the Rout themselves. Destroy the enemies of the Emperor, regardless of their name, history, or brotherhood. Its a simple and straight forward task, its not one that the other legions at that point were mentally prepared to do. They spend the whole series describing the mental trauma Astartes on Astertes combat causes, this obviously changes but even the traitor legions spend time conditioning themselves mentally to kill Astartes.

 

During the initial design phase? Who knows they were secret we can't really know only assert supposition, I suspect the Trifold are actually the 'break in case of' Legions, I think the developments of their Primarchs made that idea untenable. Both the VI,XVIII, and XX have self-destructive tendencies that would lead them to having severely depleted resources even after victory. Their Primarchs changed the nature of these tendencies, so I wouldn't say they even were true to their initial design. Counter-intelligence, the last stand, and decimation, the three tools I would choose to destroy the legions myself. 

 

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

If you are going to kill a Legion, you would want the executioner to be as savage and relentless as possible with the ability to be called off if the situation demands it. The Cerberus Insurrection was a particularly troubling engagement in which Thunder Warriors were holding particularly strong ground. AFAIR in an extremely short amount of time, they were literally shredded through unending, heroic and relentless close combat which if you want a force like a legion out of the picture, that is exactly how you would do it. 

 

But why were the War Hounds uniquely qualified for this? Cerberus was certainly an effective operation, a textbook boarding/asteroid assault in which some undetermined number of Thunder Warriors basically mobbed to death by superior numbers/squad vs individual tactics (the TW are corpses are described as individuals surrounded by WH corpses, which suggests a lack of cohesion/unit tactics amongst the Renegades). However 'savage and relentless' isn't an MO unique to the XII (or the VI, for that matter). I see no reason why another Legion couldn't have prosecuted the Cereberus incursion with equal success, especially as there wouldn't be the aversion to inter-Astartes conflict we see in the HH when dealing with Thunder Warriors.

 

Also the 'held back as a reserve' thing is specific to the later part of Sol Unification. Once the Crusade got under way they were split across a bunch of fleets (the 13th being the largest concentration from the get go, not a post Angron amalgamation) and used to support and reinforce other Legions/expeditions (including the SWs). The SWs, on the other hand, seem to have been held back until a viable mass of them were assembled, and used en masse to crush specific targets.

 

It's also worth noting that the start of the XII's dark reputation for butchery and massacre started before the Legion was reunited with Angron. Rereading the pre-Primarch stuff from Betrayal, it's a lot closer to the VI than Inferno alone would have you think.

 

When we look at how the XII and VI were used in the GC, it becomes apparent that the VI were being used as the 'dirty job' Legion almost form the get go, whereas the XII were more conventional, better suited to annihilation rather than annexation campaigns, but still pretty conventional. True, this could be attributed to the influence of Russ thanks to his early discovery, but combined with the whole 'Trefoil' thing, it still seems most likely imo that the VI were intended for the role they found themselves in, not the XII.

 

 

at this time in the GC, as the VI as a choice were literal bloodthirsty berserkers who would have to literally be shot to get off an enemy.

This in particular bugs me. The inclusion of the 'discipline officer' in Inferno seems to have fostered the idea that the VI were notably more uncontrolled than they were, or that such Marines were somehow unique to the VI. In the example pre-Russ engagements, they didn't refuse to pull back, no effort was made to restrain them. The only nod to that idea is the statement that the VI "employed a far larger number of Disciplinary troops than almost any other Legion, barring perhaps only the XII" (note, this is pre Russ, so clearly pre Angron and the Nails). Which suggests it wasn't quite as clear cut as 'organised, disciplined XII vs feral, uncontrolled VI'.

[Calas Typhon]

 

But why were the War Hounds uniquely qualified for this? Cerberus was certainly an effective operation, a textbook boarding/asteroid assault in which some undetermined number of Thunder Warriors basically mobbed to death by superior numbers/squad vs individual tactics (the TW are corpses are described as individuals surrounded by WH corpses, which suggests a lack of cohesion/unit tactics amongst the Renegades). However 'savage and relentless' isn't an MO unique to the XII (or the VI, for that matter). I see no reason why another Legion couldn't have prosecuted the Cereberus incursion with equal success, especially as there wouldn't be the aversion to inter-Astartes conflict we see in the HH when dealing with Thunder Warriors.

 

Also the 'held back as a reserve' thing is specific to the later part of Sol Unification. Once the Crusade got under way they were split across a bunch of fleets (the 13th being the largest concentration from the get go, not a post Angron amalgamation) and used to support and reinforce other Legions/expeditions (including the SWs). The SWs, on the other hand, seem to have been held back until a viable mass of them were assembled, and used en masse to crush specific targets.

 

It's also worth noting that the start of the XII's dark reputation for butchery and massacre started before the Legion was reunited with Angron. Rereading the pre-Primarch stuff from Betrayal, it's a lot closer to the VI than Inferno alone would have you think.

 

When we look at how the XII and VI were used in the GC, it becomes apparent that the VI were being used as the 'dirty job' Legion almost form the get go, whereas the XII were more conventional, better suited to annihilation rather than annexation campaigns, but still pretty conventional. True, this could be attributed to the influence of Russ thanks to his early discovery, but combined with the whole 'Trefoil' thing, it still seems most likely imo that the VI were intended for the role they found themselves in, not the XII.

 

I suppose my argument is that the Warhounds in the Cerberus disco displayed some solid traits that a Legion that is designed to destroy another Legion would pick up, from what we know about the Legion, they are heroic, fearless and utterly committed to removing the enemy in its entirety whilst performing their duty and following the order given. And I am definitely not saying that any other Legion could not have done what the Warhounds did. 

 

The Difference between being held back as the Warhounds and the Space Wolves, especially after the creation of the 13th expedition fleet is that one Legion has their Primarch at that point and the other does not. The Warhounds would be under orders from higher ups, where as the Space Wolves had a Primarch directing them. Its highly likely the Space Wolves were funnelled into the role due to circumstance, and from the point, roles would be reversed. The Space Wolves being held back would be under the orders of a Primarch or directly under the Emperor.

 

As I mentioned before, the legions are very similar but you have to look at the smaller details in this case if you are arguing who is more fit for the role of executioner. Both had a reputation for massacre and blood but one was likely far more disciplined and set to the task than the other. If we are looking at the background context, only one has bigger discipline problems 

 

 

 

This in particular bugs me. The inclusion of the 'discipline officer' in Inferno seems to have fostered the idea that the VI were notably more uncontrolled than they were, or that such Marines were somehow unique to the VI. In the example pre-Russ engagements, they didn't refuse to pull back, no effort was made to restrain them. The only nod to that idea is the statement that the VI "employed a far larger number of Disciplinary troops than almost any other Legion, barring perhaps only the XII" (note, this is pre Russ, so clearly pre Angron and the Nails). Which suggests it wasn't quite as clear cut as 'organised, disciplined XII vs feral, uncontrolled VI'.

 

I was not exactly referring to just the use of disciplinary officers, most Legions in the early stages would use them. Especially the more vicious legions, however you have to take into account other factors  when talking about the VI and XII and comparing, because they are very very similar. Just looking into the background of the legion from the very recruitment bases they formed from to the manners in which they made warfare, it really shows the difference in the Legions. They took to war as an unstoppable force pre Russ, its why they gained that famous name 'The Rout', all information pre Russ seems to indicate they were an unchained and a less disciplined force compared to other Legions, even the War Hounds. I can go into a bit more detail on that if you want later.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

I suppose my argument is that the Warhounds in the Cerberus disco displayed some solid traits that a Legion that is designed to destroy another Legion would pick up, from what we know about the Legion, they are heroic, fearless and utterly committed to removing the enemy in its entirety whilst performing their duty and following the order given. And I am definitely not saying that any other Legion could not have done what the Warhounds did. 

As opposed to the famously cowardly and faint-hearted Legions?

 

I'm not having a dig, it's just that you have to be careful when you're attributing quite basic qualities, like fearlessness and heroism, to a specific Legion, as these are traits all 18 should have in common.

 

 

The Difference between being held back as the Warhounds and the Space Wolves, especially after the creation of the 13th expedition fleet is that one Legion has their Primarch at that point and the other does not. The Warhounds would be under orders from higher ups, where as the Space Wolves had a Primarch directing them. Its highly likely the Space Wolves were funnelled into the role due to circumstance, and from the point, roles would be reversed. The Space Wolves being held back would be under the orders of a Primarch or directly under the Emperor.

No. That's what I was trying to get across, they were treated differently before either Legion had its Primarch. The 13th expedition fleet was created as part of that dissemination of the XII at the outset of the GC, long before Angron (all he did was bring most of the Legion, along with some other dubious formations into the 13th, it's the Bodt muster that has the Sangy quote attached, not the foundation of the 'Bloody 13th'). Whereas the Wolves seem to have been kept more together as a single entity, even in its pre-Primarch days under Rathvin.

 

 

Both had a reputation for massacre and blood but one was likely far more disciplined and set to the task than the other. If we are looking at the background context, only one has bigger discipline problems

Actually I'd dispute this. I urge you to reread the relevant section of Betrayal and Inferno. They're uncannily similar and present the image of 2 highly effective, if bloody, Legions. Both of which were highly fractious, prone to violence, even amongst themselves and had to kept in line by harsh, brutal discipline, as well as a preponderance for collateral damage. To be honest they're so similar in presentation the idea of the XII being held up as the exemplars of 'controlled fury', like Inferno claims, rings pretty hollow imo when the 2 passages are compared side by side. It almost seems like the authors had forgotten just how nasty they'd made the pre-Angron XII in Betrayal when it was time to write Inferno.

 

But going back to the initial idea. The Wolves have 2 major factors in their favour as the 'intended executioners' over the XII, or any other Legion. Their involvement in the Trefoil, and their treatment during the Crusade, both before and after Russ. They have the more secretive origin, and then the actual use as the 'dirty job/hatchetmen/executioner' force. The cap just plain fits them better imo.

[bluntblade]

 

The Emperors Children lacked the numbers to be an effective execution force as they suffered a massive, near fatal, accident at their birth and that impacted their early role in the Great Crusade

Mortarion was looking for true justice when he first joined the Great Crusade. He wanted away from the monsters and tyrants that previously dominated Barbarus. His attitude and character would make for a poor executioner

sorry, but his attitude was perfect for the role of an executioner. He didn't just want justice, he also was trying to look out for mankind and their best interests.

 

While we're at it, do you happen to have a reason behind why the Imperial Fists or White Scars couldn't have taken the job?

 

Imperial Fists had some ethical limits, likewise White Scars and throw in some anti-authoritarian tendencies.

 

Mortarion was found much later than Russ, tended towards slow, attritional warfare, and harboured an ill-concealed grudge against the Emperor and an open hatred for any and all psykers.

[Jarl Caldersson]

I think any legion could do the job of wiping out another legion with support but you have to look at their traits. Listed them all and what I think is their obstacle

 

 

Dark Angels: possibly could fulfill the role, but was more suited to crusading than enforcing/executing. Lion also had knightly training meaning attacking his brothers may be prove difficult mentally for him.

 

Emperor's Children: too few numbers, were more suited for diplomatic/artistic.

 

Iron Warriors: Perty was a engineer and his legion was really suited for siege/fortification.

 

White Scars: Nomadic and slightly anti-authoritative.

 

Space Wolves: in discussion.

 

Imperial Fists: honourable and more suited to siege/fortification.

 

Night Lord's: would play with their prey, prefer to assassinate and death by thousand cuts than quick execution.

 

Blood Angels: too well liked and again more diplomatic/artisans (excuse the red thirst)

 

Iron Hands: honestly I don't know enough.

 

World Eaters: capable but post-Angron they were too unwieldy and incapable of being controlled. Emperor demanded they stop using the nails and Angron said no. So doesn't listen to orders either.

 

Ultramarines: bean counters/goveners/logistics.

 

Death Guard: would take their time to slowly kill them off. Mortarion was not known to get jobs done quickly but slow methodical work.

 

Thousands Sons: More concerned about knowledge, pre-corruption Magnus would probably have a hard time killing a brother he was rather passionate.

 

Sons of Horus: like DAs they are capable but more suited to conquering.

 

Word Bearers: do I need to explain?

 

Salamanders: like Magnus he loves his brothers (:cuss those dark Eldar though) would probably have a hard time executing the order. I can think of a brother he didn't like other than Angron and Cruze.

 

Raven Guard: similiar to Night Lord's but less gruesome. Preferred quick short covert assault strike and not up front combat.

 

Alpha Legion: preferred covert ops and sabotage.

[Warhead01]

 

 

The Emperors Children lacked the numbers to be an effective execution force as they suffered a massive, near fatal, accident at their birth and that impacted their early role in the Great Crusade

Mortarion was looking for true justice when he first joined the Great Crusade. He wanted away from the monsters and tyrants that previously dominated Barbarus. His attitude and character would make for a poor executioner

sorry, but his attitude was perfect for the role of an executioner. He didn't just want justice, he also was trying to look out for mankind and their best interests.

 

While we're at it, do you happen to have a reason behind why the Imperial Fists or White Scars couldn't have taken the job?

 

Imperial Fists had some ethical limits, likewise White Scars and throw in some anti-authoritarian tendencies.

 

Mortarion was found much later than Russ, tended towards slow, attritional warfare, and harboured an ill-concealed grudge against the Emperor and an open hatred for any and all psykers.

 

The concept of ethical limitations is amusing. It suggests they would not obey the Emperor. 

 

Of all the traits listed in this thread loyalty and I would add obedience would seem the most important.  

[Jarl Caldersson]

 

 

 

The Emperors Children lacked the numbers to be an effective execution force as they suffered a massive, near fatal, accident at their birth and that impacted their early role in the Great Crusade

Mortarion was looking for true justice when he first joined the Great Crusade. He wanted away from the monsters and tyrants that previously dominated Barbarus. His attitude and character would make for a poor executioner

 

sorry, but his attitude was perfect for the role of an executioner. He didn't just want justice, he also was trying to look out for mankind and their best interests.

While we're at it, do you happen to have a reason behind why the Imperial Fists or White Scars couldn't have taken the job?

Imperial Fists had some ethical limits, likewise White Scars and throw in some anti-authoritarian tendencies.

 

Mortarion was found much later than Russ, tended towards slow, attritional warfare, and harboured an ill-concealed grudge against the Emperor and an open hatred for any and all psykers.

The concept of ethical limitations is amusing. It suggests they would not obey the Emperor. 

Of all the traits listed in this thread loyalty and I would add obedience would seem the most important.

Angron didn't obey the butchers nails, lorgar kept calling him a good until finally UM burned their city, Magnus kept practicing despite the Emperor's orders. There have been times Primarchs didn't listen to the Emperor.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I think, really, the resistance to the Executioner theory isn't so much that it exists, but mainly in how Abnett sold it outside of the books. He released a video rambling about how the Space Wolves were the most feared Legion ever, that the only reason they were allowed to continue existing was in case they were needed to destroy another Legion. It just came so out of left-field, so utterly different to everything we knew about what the Space Wolves were, what we already knew about them in the Heresy-era, what we knew about the other Legions in the Heresy-era.

 

There was an element of "well why them, and not the Night Lords/World Eaters, if you want savagery", that A D-B had to come in and do damage control for, but to be honest, the real question was, and still is, "if the Wolves were dangling by such a thread due to such comparatively trivial actions, only saved due to their role, what in hell is saving the World Eaters/Night Lords, who we have been shown doing far worse for far longer". They were a perfect example of why Show, Don't Tell is a thing.

 

They were hyped up as "we're the ones that do what no other Legion could do, we go far beyond what the others ever do to our enemies, we're so feared, even the Imperium is terrified of us", and then we get shown that they... crash a space station into a city. That's supposed to make us think they're the worst of the worst?

 

The Forge World book at least gave us the Rangdan Genocides, which subtly implies that the Space Wolves didn't destroy the two Missing Legions, they were called in for cleanup and coverup of whatever the hell did. In that regard, yeah, the Space Wolves are definitely the Executioners. They don't commit atrocities like the World Eaters and Night Lords do, but they're the ones that you call in to clean house. Dozens of Imperial planets potentially tainted, potentially even having seen two Legions fall? Bring in the Wolves, they'll do what needs to be done. The Night Lords and World Eaters have their sense of justice and martial pride, they'll kill civilians sure, but only if they've done wrong in the case of the Night Lords, or as collateral damage while killing soldiers for the World Eaters once the nails have bitten.

 

Are the Space Wolves better than the other Legions? No. Are they willing to follow the Emperors orders, come what may? Definitely. More than any other Legion (save perhaps Perturabo, although he got himself pigeon-holed as the Trench Warfare Guy), the Space Wolves and Russ proved that whatever is required, they'll carry out. They don't have qualms about murdering civilians, like the also-loyal Ultramarines and Imperial Fists might, they don't necessarily care for glory like the Sons of Horus, Dark Angels, or Emperors Children. They had no questions about their loyalty, like the Night Lords, Death Guard, or the White Scars. Even the World Eaters, from what we know of Angron, have their martial pride that they'd probably refuse a direct order to kill civilians. They'll do it once the Nails bite, that's just an "unfortunate occurrence", but I doubt Angron would kill innocents with no reason.

 

Yes, the Space Wolves, in this sense, are the Executioners.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

Both of those were written as course correction, in response to the outcry.

Both of those were clarifications, for people who were unable to digest the new material

Hah, we all have our angles I suppose, but no that's not going to cut it for me.

 

 

gotta say...that was my impression too; that it was forum posters and readers over reacting and reading more into prospero burns than was there.

 

adb's Khârn and sevetar quotes come across more as clarification of prospero burns than course correction (there is no revelation or contradictory info there. simply expanding on what pb already said) whereas his russ and angron confrontation felt more like a righting of the ship (new info, totally new perspective on russ' actions, a humbling of sorts etc)

[mc warhammer]

I think, really, the resistance to the Executioner theory isn't so much that it exists, but mainly in how Abnett sold it outside of the books. He released a video rambling about how the Space Wolves were the most feared Legion ever, that the only reason they were allowed to continue existing was in case they were needed to destroy another Legion. It just came so out of left-field, so utterly different to everything we knew about what the Space Wolves were, what we already knew about them in the Heresy-era, what we knew about the other Legions in the Heresy-era.

 

There was an element of "well why them, and not the Night Lords/World Eaters, if you want savagery", that A D-B had to come in and do damage control for, but to be honest, the real question was, and still is, "if the Wolves were dangling by such a thread due to such comparatively trivial actions, only saved due to their role, what in hell is saving the World Eaters/Night Lords, who we have been shown doing far worse for far longer". They were a perfect example of why Show, Don't Tell is a thing.

 

They were hyped up as "we're the ones that do what no other Legion could do, we go far beyond what the others ever do to our enemies, we're so feared, even the Imperium is terrified of us", and then we get shown that they... crash a space station into a city. That's supposed to make us think they're the worst of the worst?

 

The Forge World book at least gave us the Rangdan Genocides, which subtly implies that the Space Wolves didn't destroy the two Missing Legions, they were called in for cleanup and coverup of whatever the hell did. In that regard, yeah, the Space Wolves are definitely the Executioners. They don't commit atrocities like the World Eaters and Night Lords do, but they're the ones that you call in to clean house. Dozens of Imperial planets potentially tainted, potentially even having seen two Legions fall? Bring in the Wolves, they'll do what needs to be done. The Night Lords and World Eaters have their sense of justice and martial pride, they'll kill civilians sure, but only if they've done wrong in the case of the Night Lords, or as collateral damage while killing soldiers for the World Eaters once the nails have bitten.

 

Are the Space Wolves better than the other Legions? No. Are they willing to follow the Emperors orders, come what may? Definitely. More than any other Legion (save perhaps Perturabo, although he got himself pigeon-holed as the Trench Warfare Guy), the Space Wolves and Russ proved that whatever is required, they'll carry out. They don't have qualms about murdering civilians, like the also-loyal Ultramarines and Imperial Fists might, they don't necessarily care for glory like the Sons of Horus, Dark Angels, or Emperors Children. They had no questions about their loyalty, like the Night Lords, Death Guard, or the White Scars. Even the World Eaters, from what we know of Angron, have their martial pride that they'd probably refuse a direct order to kill civilians. They'll do it once the Nails bite, that's just an "unfortunate occurrence", but I doubt Angron would kill innocents with no reason.

 

Yes, the Space Wolves, in this sense, are the Executioners.

 

 

it'd be interesting to read direct quotes from prospero burns re this "unacceptable" reinterpretation of the wolves.

 

on a tangent (because i always take creatives outside the work with a salt grain), it'd also be interesting to see exact quotes from abnett on the topic. and other authors, of course.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Sorry for vanishing, work in a doctor's office during flu season gets hectic sometimes...

 

 

The Emperors Children lacked the numbers to be an effective execution force as they suffered a massive, near fatal, accident at their birth and that impacted their early role in the Great Crusade
Mortarion was looking for true justice when he first joined the Great Crusade. He wanted away from the monsters and tyrants that previously dominated Barbarus. His attitude and character would make for a poor executioner

sorry, but his attitude was perfect for the role of an executioner. He didn't just want justice, he also was trying to look out for mankind and their best interests.

While we're at it, do you happen to have a reason behind why the Imperial Fists or White Scars couldn't have taken the job?

 

 

Already said,but I'll echo it: the Great Crusade wasnt about justice. It was about forcibly or peacefully bringing together the scattered pieces of humanity under the Emperor. 
 

Resist peacefully and die

Resist by force and die.

 

Justice had nothing to do with it. 

An executioner doesnt care about justice. Justice is determined by the historians and lords of men. An executioner cares about ensuring the orders of his lord.

 

Now the Khan was allowed to roam almost completely free. He has little supervision and still resents it. He resents being included and left out. He questions the goals of the Emperor and the Imperium. He almost sides with Horus, the leader he had he closet connection with! Its even hinted that being both left out and excluded on purpose...its HIS purpose.

 

Even Dorn has the ability to question the Emperor 
 

 

‘The Emperor holds the breach under the Palace. The Mechanicum works on a way to release Him from this duty, but you and I both know that they will not succeed in the time we have left to us.’ ‘But it’s not the same, though, is it?’ said Dorn. ‘You should have withdrawn earlier. Tell me, Constantin, what did you gain, clinging on down there for so long? You’d all rather have died following a command than countermand it.’

‘I do not see–’

‘It was a fool’s errand!’ Dorn exclaimed. ‘I tried to warn you. Unless we committed everything we had, there was no hope of holding those portals. But no, only the pure could be risked. And look how that turned out.’ ‘The order was given.’ Dorn smiled, cynically and without warmth. ‘You see, there’s your old problem. You never see any fault in Him. You never push back. You never stop, think, say to yourself – is that sensible?’

 

Chris Wraight. Magisterium (Kindle Locations 209-217). 

 

Questioning, pushing back is something you dont want the axe in your hands to do.

 

Its been years, but no, I do not believe he was sent after Angron.

 

He took that upon himself, and paid for it.

 

 

Agreed. The Night of the Wolf was Russ believing his own hype and paying the price...though I would debate if anybody "won" the Night of the Wolf.

 

JKC

[Scribe]

Yar, both won, and both lost.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Yar, both won, and both lost.

 

I have to advise you, thats now two things we've agreed upon on the B&C. (the first being the Watch Pack discussion in the BL subforum)

 

We keep this up and who knows where it'll end?

[Scribe]

I know, I worry about it too...

[Slan Drakkos]

 

 

The Emperors Children lacked the numbers to be an effective execution force as they suffered a massive, near fatal, accident at their birth and that impacted their early role in the Great Crusade

Mortarion was looking for true justice when he first joined the Great Crusade. He wanted away from the monsters and tyrants that previously dominated Barbarus. His attitude and character would make for a poor executioner

 

sorry, but his attitude was perfect for the role of an executioner. He didn't just want justice, he also was trying to look out for mankind and their best interests.

While we're at it, do you happen to have a reason behind why the Imperial Fists or White Scars couldn't have taken the job?

Imperial Fists had some ethical limits, likewise White Scars and throw in some anti-authoritarian tendencies.

 

Mortarion was found much later than Russ, tended towards slow, attritional warfare, and harboured an ill-concealed grudge against the Emperor and an open hatred for any and all psykers.

Why not have the Iron Hands or Iron Warriors do it then?

 

Let's be honest here, his hatred of psykers is totally justified when you remember Typhus, Erebus, Lorgar, and Magnus all ended up screwing the Imperium over so hard.

[bluntblade]

Ferrus had more value as a relatively unblemished commander, especially as reading between the lines he rose to prominence when there weren't many Primarchs active in the Crusade, and the reputation of one had just darkened tremendously.

 

Perturabo... really? A guy who had a tenth of his Legion beaten to death by their comrades, was deemed mad by some of his own brothers and would struggle to lead any kind of censure host because troops would mutiny at the thought of serving under him. Like Mortarion he was found later on, and in any case the Iron Warriors were stretched thin by the sheer number of their campaigns and often ended their sieges by massacring the population wholesale. The Wolves, it is pointedly stated, are able to restrain themselves to just the intended target of their campaign; turns out that on Prospero most of the actual massacres were carried out by Sons of Horus.

 

That's irrelevant to the thought processes of anyone a century and a half before the Heresy. Mortarion's hatred is still ingrained to an unhelpful extent, and the Death Guard are known to do excessivve damage to worlds in their campaigns. Again, the Wolves know when to halt.

 

Based on Inferno it's likely that Russ came by the title because of his part in the Rangdan Xenocides.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Because Ferrus Manus was already the Iron General. His talents lay in being a field commander.

 

As for Perturabo, he would certainly carry out the campaigns. He was basically a mirror of Russ in that regard. The difference was that Perturabo resented his task. He wanted to be a creator, he was able to use his genius in building to become a genius in siegecraft. Who knows, maybe the Emperor knew of this resentment, and knew that Perturabo could carry the burden of being the Siege Guy until the Crusade was over, but that genocide against civilians would be too much.

 

Hell, we know that Perturabo putting down the insurrection on Olympia was enough to break him. If he'd been called on to have that as his Legions purpose? It wouldn't have ended well, even worse than what happened.

 

Basically, Russ was the Savage Warlord. He'd serve gladly, in whatever task required. Perturabo would follow orders just as well, but it wasn't what he wanted. He wasn't an Executioner, he was a polymath who wanted only to build wonders, ordered only to dig trenches.

[rendingon1+]

I hope it was not quoted yet:

'If you wish. It is just another world.'
'No, not this one.' Russ lifted his gaze then, away from the hololith, up at the images, the architecture of Caliban. 'This is what you do - you conquer, one world after the other, until you can no longer count them. I admire that, truly. Few do it better, but it is not what we were made for.' He moved back towards the tactical schema, as if he could reach out and rip it into shreds. 'Every world we burn is for vengeance. They are condemned, he is condemned, and we are the sanction.'

 

[Calas Typhon]

 

As opposed to the famously cowardly and faint-hearted Legions?

I'm not having a dig, it's just that you have to be careful when you're attributing quite basic qualities, like fearlessness and heroism, to a specific Legion, as these are traits all 18 should have in common.

 

 

I will clarify a bit more, I was literally just going to bed as I was typing my last comment

All Legions are fearless to a point and in general Heroic, But the Warhounds were literally built around it.

When I say fearless, this is a Legion are infamous for titrushing literally anything with no hesitation, thats even before the nails. I keep going back to damn Cerberus but its a pretty good showing of what I mean, its a pretty classic showing of how the Legion conducts warfare. 

 

as for the Heroism, Courage was probably the word I was going for. After Desh'ea is a pretty good showing of what I mean.

 

 

No. That's what I was trying to get across, they were treated differently before either Legion had its Primarch. The 13th expedition fleet was created as part of that dissemination of the XII at the outset of the GC, long before Angron (all he did was bring most of the Legion, along with some other dubious formations into the 13th, it's the Bodt muster that has the Sangy quote attached, not the foundation of the 'Bloody 13th'). 

I know when the Warhounds were pushed into the 13th, a good 50+ years after the founding of Russ and it was one of the reasons they were chosen for the Cerberus campaign was because they were not a part of an expeditionary fleet at the time. 

 

I am fully aware that they were treated differently before. I was mainly talking about the fact that there were different reasoning behind why either legions would be held back, The Warhounds being under Imperial Commanders and the Space Wolves under their found Primarch. Its linked into why there seems to be a shift in roles, because one Legion was needed to fit a particular role at the time (possibly an execution) and the Space Wolves being very similar would have been a better Option.

 

 

Actually I'd dispute this. I urge you to reread the relevant section of Betrayal and Inferno. They're uncannily similar and present the image of 2 highly effective, if bloody, Legions. Both of which were highly fractious, prone to violence, even amongst themselves and had to kept in line by harsh, brutal discipline, as well as a preponderance for collateral damage. To be honest they're so similar in presentation the idea of the XII being held up as the exemplars of 'controlled fury', like Inferno claims, rings pretty hollow imo when the 2 passages are compared side by side. It almost seems like the authors had forgotten just how nasty they'd made the pre-Angron XII in Betrayal when it was time to write Inferno.

 

But going back to the initial idea. The Wolves have 2 major factors in their favour as the 'intended executioners' over the XII, or any other Legion. Their involvement in the Trefoil, and their treatment during the Crusade, both before and after Russ. They have the more secretive origin, and then the actual use as the 'dirty job/hatchetmen/executioner' force. The cap just plain fits them better imo.

I am aware of how similar they are, its why the switched role theory holds pretty well as I see it. 

 

I will go a bit deeper again now because the discipline is a bit different. 

As far as I am aware, all references to the strict discipline within the Warhounds have been in reference to internal Legion violence with officers sorting out bloody fights between Legionaries, more than likely due to the highly competitive nature of the brotherhood within the Legion rather than holding them back because they literally could not be stopped in absolute massacre. Where as we look at the Space Wolves, who would literally chase after a bleeding foe to rip and tear leaving the Legion command with lost control reportedly and having to bring in Discipline corps. 

 

They could have been in the Trefoil as a dedicated Gehenna level scouring appliance rather than executioners. As for the treatment before and after Russ, this is exactly what I have been trying to talk about this whole time. Before Russ, the Warhounds fit the role better. After Russ, the Space Wolves fit the role better and were probably funnelled into the role through circumstance. They became the exact opposite. 

 

Controlled Fury is exactly what I would call it though in the case of the Warhounds. At least you could put a collar on them without having to put them down if you wanted them to stop. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

I know when the Warhounds were pushed into the 13th, a good 50+ years after the founding of Russ and it was one of the reasons they were chosen for the Cerberus campaign was because they were not a part of an expeditionary fleet at the time. 

 

Where are you getting 50+ years? Betrayal specifically states the XII was held in reserve 'right through the re-conquest of the Sol system' and the foundation of the 13th was at the latest 'in the early decades' of the GC. That doesn't gel with the 13th being founded (which was when the XII were deployed to the Crusade proper) over 50 years after Russ was found. That would mean for at least a third, give or take, of the 200 year Crusade (not sure when Russ was found, but the VI served for at least 12 years without him) the XII Legion were sat on their collective hands doing nothing productive. That's AL levels of delay in 'official' deployment, and the AL are meant to be unusual for how long it took them to emerge as a frontline, fighting Legion.

 

 

As far as I am aware, all references to the strict discipline within the Warhounds have been in reference to internal Legion violence with officers sorting out bloody fights between Legionaries, more than likely due to the highly competitive nature of the brotherhood within the Legion rather than holding them back because they literally could not be stopped in absolute massacre. Where as we look at the Space Wolves, who would literally chase after a bleeding foe to rip and tear leaving the Legion command with lost control reportedly and having to bring in Discipline corps.

Again, I think you're overestimating how easily 'stopped' the War Hounds were. This is the Legion whose attacks 'ended only in one of two ways: victorious slaughter or simple slaughter'. To be honest, we have little info really as to how easily either Legion could be stopped, as it seems they generally weren't. Both were sent in when destruction and annihilation were required, rather than surgical precision (the increased ability to pull this off is one of the things Russ brought with him).

 

VI Legion:

 

They had an unarguable track record of success and had won numerous battle honours, but accusations and stories of unneeded collateral damage and casualties among human civilian populations where they had fought were widespread...said to be an internally fractious Legion, ruled more by the strength of its officers than obedience to legitimate authority, and violence and factionalism within the ranks was said to be far too common.

XII Legion:

 

every assault ended only in one of two ways: victorious slaughter or simple slaughter, either of which left the foe in no condition to resist further...many who fought alongside them found them also to be unpredictable, intemperate and dangerous to anything that stood in their path, combatant or otherwise...Outsiders noted that an unusually harsh code of discipline was enforced in the ranks by the Legion's officers and was indeed needed, as the War Hounds themselves could prove fractious, and bloodshed between brothers was far from uncommon.

 

Both of those sound pretty similar to me tbh. Both Legions caused a lot of collateral when deployed, were criticised for it and had very hot blooded, fractious Marines with a history of intra-Legion violence. I'm just not seeing a massive difference (there is one, but it's pretty slight). The real difference seems to be in how they were utilised during the Crusade, rather than a striking difference in character between the two. The VI probably were a bit more savage and 'bestial' but not to the extent Inferno claims, imo, based on the info provided in Betrayal.

 

 

 

They could have been in the Trefoil as a dedicated Gehenna level scouring appliance rather than executioners. As for the treatment before and after Russ, this is exactly what I have been trying to talk about this whole time. Before Russ, the Warhounds fit the role better. After Russ, the Space Wolves fit the role better and were probably funnelled into the role through circumstance. They became the exact opposite.

And here's where I think you're wrong. Yes, the XII could have been a 'Trefoil' Legion (though guess that'd be 'quadfoil' ), but they weren't. Whereas the VI's inclusion in that shadowed group remains the best argument for the predestination of their role.The VI still fit the role better than the XII imo, even before Russ, as they were repeatedly used for more 'punitive actions, such as suppressing rebellions' whereas the XII were still essentially used as a 'line Legion' once deployed to the Crusade.

 

The 'switched role' idea seems to be somewhat valid as far as things like Cerberus go. But it doesn't address the issue of intent sufficiently imo. What we see is the XII Legion being used like that, then split up and sent into the line for the Crusade proper, then reunited around their Primarch. Whereas the VI, from their very foundation, were used more in the executioner/hatchetmen role. So, given the known difficulties with the VI gene-line, and the slow growth of the Legion, it just seems more likely that the XII were substituted into the role, because the VI weren't ready yet, rather than the XII being the intended for the role, and only supplanted with the arrival of Russ. The idea of the XII 'filling the gaps' would also be consistent with their split deployment in the early Crusade, providing punch to the Army and back up to the other, more centralised Legions.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Leif Bearclaw

[Lord_Caerolion]

Let's also not forget that Russ was the second Primarch found. There wasn't exactly much time that the VI Legion spent without their Primarch.

[Calas Typhon]

 

 

Where are you getting 50+ years? Betrayal specifically states the XII was held in reserve 'right through the re-conquest of the Sol system' and the foundation of the 13th was at the latest 'in the early decades' of the GC. That doesn't gel with the 13th being founded (which was when the XII were deployed to the Crusade proper) over 50 years after Russ was found. That would mean for at least a third, give or take, of the 200 year Crusade (not sure when Russ was found, but the VI served for at least 12 years without him) the XII Legion were sat on their collective hands doing nothing productive. That's AL levels of delay in 'official' deployment, and the AL are meant to be unusual for how long it took them to emerge as a frontline, fighting Legion.

As far as I remember, it is stated as happening somewhere around the mid 800's which is an accurate time as most other Legions had their own Expiditionary fleets due to finding their Primarchs or being a certain size at that time. Russ was found in 800 which is literally right near the very start of the great crusade, 50 years would be a few decades after that. 

 

The Warhounds were literally on reserve until the Cerberus disco as far as we know with only one or two compliances participated in with the Emperor. And they were used because the Emperor was 'minded to use them' especially as pointed above, most other Legions had their own Expiditionary fleets.

 

 

Again, I think you're overestimating how easily 'stopped' the War Hounds were. This is the Legion whose attacks 'ended only in one of two ways: victorious slaughter or simple slaughter'. To be honest, we have little info really as to how easily either Legion could be stopped, as it seems they generally weren't. Both were sent in when destruction and annihilation were required, rather than surgical precision (the increased ability to pull this off is one of the things Russ brought with him).

Most campaigns were brutally swift and the orders followed in the case of the Warhounds, and only one of the two Legions have Loss of control on a pretty bad scale attributed to them. 

 

 

And here's where I think you're wrong. Yes, the XII could have been a 'Trefoil' Legion (though guess that'd be 'quadfoil' ), but they weren't. Whereas the VI's inclusion in that shadowed group remains the best argument for the predestination of their role.The VI still fit the role better than the XII imo, even before Russ, as they were repeatedly used for more 'punitive actions, such as suppressing rebellions' whereas the XII were still essentially used as a 'line Legion' once deployed to the Crusade.

I am not saying that the Warhounds are part of the Trifold so I presume that is a mistake, I was saying that the space wolves role in the Trifold could have been a Legion for utter destruction rather than as an Executioner force. I have gone into the recruitment, nature of the Legions and the like and lined out why I think the Warhounds would have been the candidate for Executioners if there was one needed. 

 

I think you are under the impression that I think that the Warhounds are not brutal and violent or not as much as the Space Wolves. I have stated many times already that both the Legions are similar at this point in the timeline and I am not going to do it again. I don't particularly want to go around in circles any more. 

Edited January 31, 2018 by Calas Typhon

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Most campaigns were brutally swift and the orders followed in the case of the Warhounds, and only one of the two Legions have Loss of control on a pretty bad scale attributed to them.

 

Which is where I get a disconnect between the relevant portrayals. We don't really have firm examples/evidence of the Wolves having a significantly larger 'loss of control' issue than the WHs. It's just a bunch on in universe gossip, which seems to have stuck more to the VI because they were putting down more rebellions and recidivists than the WHs. Now, the idea that the wider crusade thought less highly of the VI than the XII is fine, rumours and reputations don't have to be 100% grounded in fact, but the similarities do help to undermine the idea of the XII being the 'intended sanction Legion' due to their greater control.

 

 

I think you are under the impression that I think that the Warhounds are not brutal and violent or not as much as the Space Wolves. I have stated many times already that both the Legions are similar at this point in the timeline and I am not going to do it again. I don't particularly want to go around in circles any more.

Sorry dude, but I really think we've got our wires crossed here, and for that I apologise. I'm actually trying to say almost the opposite, that the difference in attitude/behaviour/discipline, when directly comparing Inferno and Betrayal, doesn't really justify the 'XII were more controlled' narrative that Inferno is trying to push. I agree that both pre Primarch Legions were similar. Both were brutal, violent, indiscriminate and internally fractious to a surprisingly similar degree.

 

My position remains that there is much more evidence that the VI were the intended 'executioners/hatchetmen/dirtyjob Legion' from the start, rather than the XII. That there was no swapping of roles part way through, and when the XII were employed in such actions (like Cerberus) it was more due to present circumstance/coincidence than the Emperor's 'Grand Design'. Assuming there was an 'intended executioner/sanction Legion', the VI seems the most likely culprit, thanks to a combination of their Trefoil involvement, pre-Russ and post-Russ deployments/attitude.

 

Happy hobbying