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Trajann Valoris vs Lord Kaldor Draigo


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#1
Waking Dreamer

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The Captain-General vs The Supreme Grand Master


So the leader of The Ten Thousand fights the leader of the 666th Chapter. Kaldor Draigo has the Terminus Decree and is going to shake things up - Trajann Valoris isn't having any of it.

The location is the Emperor's Throne Room, no interference and 1 vs 1.

Who emerges victorious?

1. Lore-wise.

2. On the tabletop.

Edited by Waking Dreamer, 15 February 2018 - 08:05 PM.

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#2
jeffersonian000

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Draigo wins. He’s functionally a holy daemon prince at this point in the fluff.

SJ
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#3
Gentlemanloser

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Lore: Draigo.

 

Dude smashed up the Chaos Gods for eternity.

 

Tabletop: Draw

 

Both pop only in death and kill each other anyway.  Regardless of who gets the charge.


  • Corvus Fortis likes this
QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#4
Capt. Mytre

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Lore wise, you have a Space Marine verse a Super Space Marine, except the Space Marine is also a potent psyker, has defeated demon primarchs, not only surviving in the warp alone, but actually wrecking censored.gif - to the point of demons just saying ":cuss that" and leaving him alone.

 

The Super Space Marine doesn't have much lore written about him yet (AFAIK), so it would be a hard guess as to his capabilities, but I'd see him hard pressed to defeat someone so balls to the wall Mary Sue as Lawd Draigo. He would also be vulnerable to psychic attacks, given he has no defences against it. Custard Marines have highly erratic power levels when portrayed in the books, from being inferior to SM, to being 100 times better.

 

Gameplay wise, in melee, it's about the same. It depends on who gets the charge really. Watcher's axe only deals D3 wounds, but wounds on 2+. Draigo wounds on 3+, but can wound on 2+ with hammerhand. Both have 3++ save. Valoris can heal D3 wounds, or attack a second time. Draigo has hammerhand/vortex/smite.

 

Outside of combat, Draigo wins because he can just Vortex + Smite Valoris.


Edited by Capt. Mytre, 01 February 2018 - 10:51 AM.


#5
Corvus Fortis

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Draigo also can get 2++ because of Heed. 



#6
Capt. Mytre

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Draigo also can get 2++ because of Heed. 

 

Wasn't including stratagems because they have requirements to be met before they can be used, and we're just talking about straight up Draigo Vs Valoris. Same reason you wouldn't include all potential buffs you can give them, such as getting a SM psyker to give Draigo Might of Heroes.

 

I guess you could argue that he could gain two CP by himself via a auxiliary detachment, so you could use stratagems up to 2cp.



#7
Waking Dreamer

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Lore: Draigo.

 

Dude smashed up the Chaos Gods for eternity.

 

Tabletop: Draw

 

Both pop only in death and kill each other anyway.  Regardless of who gets the charge.

 

 

Draigo also can get 2++ because of Heed. 

 

Wasn't including stratagems because they have requirements to be met before they can be used, and we're just talking about straight up Draigo Vs Valoris. Same reason you wouldn't include all potential buffs you can give them, such as getting a SM psyker to give Draigo Might of Heroes.

 

I guess you could argue that he could gain two CP by himself via a auxiliary detachment, so you could use stratagems up to 2cp.

 

 

 

Wasn't really considering Stratagems as it's basically a model to model comparison without worrying about outside factors (what happens when they finally clash and either side is already out of CP?). Checking their rules they're actually pretty similar in stat-line with Valoris edging out in M, S, T, and Ld while Draigo has smite + 2 psychic powers / 2 DtW. Valoris has better shooting while Draigo probably has better melee?.

 

If Im not mistaken Valoris is about 14 points more than Draigo so GW is probably thinking they have very similar capabilities in the game. Draigo could knock off a wound with smite but Valoris could also gain wounds back before they reach combat for a slug-fest! What would Draigo's ideal psychic powers be if you wanted him to take down Valoris?



#8
Waking Dreamer

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Lore wise, you have a Space Marine verse a Super Space Marine, except the Space Marine is also a potent psyker, has defeated demon primarchs, not only surviving in the warp alone, but actually wrecking censored.gif - to the point of demons just saying ":cuss that" and leaving him alone.

 

The Super Space Marine doesn't have much lore written about him yet (AFAIK), so it would be a hard guess as to his capabilities, but I'd see him hard pressed to defeat someone so balls to the wall Mary Sue as Lawd Draigo. He would also be vulnerable to psychic attacks, given he has no defences against it. Custard Marines have highly erratic power levels when portrayed in the books, from being inferior to SM, to being 100 times better.

 

I still have to catch up on his Lore, but considering Valoris is top dog of the Adeptus Custodes, most of the previous feats from lesser AC would probable scale up to him, so he would most likely be capable of the most impressive of AC feats. 



#9
Gentlemanloser

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Unless he can kill Slannesh's chosen handmaidens, burn down nurgles plague gardens, make Khornes thirsty-est Bloodthirster fear him, and well I suppose confound Tzeentchs plots, Valoris has nothing on Draigo.

 

Oh and reforge a Nemesis Wepaon with nothing more than his bare hands.

 

Really, bar the Emperor himself, no one elses fluff comes close to Draigos accomplishments.

 

Bobby G wishes he was Draigo.


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QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#10
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If my maths is correct, assuming each model on their own, Draigo seems to put out ever so slightly more damage in combat. He's about half a wound off killing Valoris in two rounds of combat, with Valoris being just under three quarters of a wound off killing Draigo in two rounds of combat.

If both were assumed to be in or from Battle-forged armies though, Valoris would laugh off most of what Draigo could throw at him, apart from Mortal Wounds.

#11
Gentlemanloser

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Why's that?

 

Both have an inbuilt 3++ and The Emperors Chosen rule doesn't increase Invulnerable saves past 3++.


QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#12
Mr. Shine

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Bahaha, of course I missed the second line of the rule in parentheses despite going to check the rule for that exact thing.

Disregard that part of my post. I'll go with Draigo probably being statistically better.
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#13
Lord_Caerolion

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Lore wise, you have a Space Marine verse a Super Space Marine, except the Space Marine is also a potent psyker, has defeated demon primarchs, not only surviving in the warp alone, but actually wrecking censored.gif - to the point of demons just saying ":cuss that" and leaving him alone.

 

The Super Space Marine doesn't have much lore written about him yet (AFAIK), so it would be a hard guess as to his capabilities, but I'd see him hard pressed to defeat someone so balls to the wall Mary Sue as Lawd Draigo. He would also be vulnerable to psychic attacks, given he has no defences against it. Custard Marines have highly erratic power levels when portrayed in the books, from being inferior to SM, to being 100 times better.

 

Gameplay wise, in melee, it's about the same. It depends on who gets the charge really. Watcher's axe only deals D3 wounds, but wounds on 2+. Draigo wounds on 3+, but can wound on 2+ with hammerhand. Both have 3++ save. Valoris can heal D3 wounds, or attack a second time. Draigo has hammerhand/vortex/smite.

 

Outside of combat, Draigo wins because he can just Vortex + Smite Valoris.

 

Just wondering, but where have they been shown to be inferior to SM? Everything I've seen is that the Custodes, individually, are far superior to Space Marines, they just aren't trained for the same thing. Squad-based tactics and open warfare? Space Marines have the advantage. Individual dueling? Custodes are hands-down superior there. As such, fluffwise I'd give this to Valoris, as he's spent his entire life training for these exact circumstances, rather than focussing on killing Daemons. Draigo is awesome at killing Daemons, yeah, but that's supposed to be his specialty. Killing anything is the specialty of Valoris.


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#14
Capt. Mytre

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Lore wise, you have a Space Marine verse a Super Space Marine, except the Space Marine is also a potent psyker, has defeated demon primarchs, not only surviving in the warp alone, but actually wrecking censored.gif - to the point of demons just saying ":cuss that" and leaving him alone.

 

The Super Space Marine doesn't have much lore written about him yet (AFAIK), so it would be a hard guess as to his capabilities, but I'd see him hard pressed to defeat someone so balls to the wall Mary Sue as Lawd Draigo. He would also be vulnerable to psychic attacks, given he has no defences against it. Custard Marines have highly erratic power levels when portrayed in the books, from being inferior to SM, to being 100 times better.

 

Gameplay wise, in melee, it's about the same. It depends on who gets the charge really. Watcher's axe only deals D3 wounds, but wounds on 2+. Draigo wounds on 3+, but can wound on 2+ with hammerhand. Both have 3++ save. Valoris can heal D3 wounds, or attack a second time. Draigo has hammerhand/vortex/smite.

 

Outside of combat, Draigo wins because he can just Vortex + Smite Valoris.

 

Just wondering, but where have they been shown to be inferior to SM? Everything I've seen is that the Custodes, individually, are far superior to Space Marines, they just aren't trained for the same thing. Squad-based tactics and open warfare? Space Marines have the advantage. Individual dueling? Custodes are hands-down superior there. As such, fluffwise I'd give this to Valoris, as he's spent his entire life training for these exact circumstances, rather than focussing on killing Daemons. Draigo is awesome at killing Daemons, yeah, but that's supposed to be his specialty. Killing anything is the specialty of Valoris.

 

 

There's a part in The Outcast Dead, where an armed and armoured Custard fights an unarmed and unarmoured World Eater. The CSM rips the armour of him and pulls out his spine.

 

As I said, the books are highly erratic, so aren't the greatest source.

 

Draigo is stupidly OP lore wise. I can't see why he would lose to anyone right now.


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#15
Chronos Darkhelmet

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We are talking about a guy literally named "Valiant Roman Emperor" vs one named "Caledor's Dragon", 'nuff said folks :D

#16
Prot

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This has to be my favourite topic in here since 8th started!

Lorewise... what a tough question to even attempt to be impartial about. I think unfortunately we do have precedence with an Heresy novel where a possessed Word Bearer takes down a Custodes (been a while since I read that one).

I don’t like the old Draigo Matt Ward era godlike rendition though and I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

My issue with Draigo taking on a Custodes is the special creative process the Emperor went through to create the ten thousand. There’s a passage in Master of Mankind (great book btw) that I found interesting; it portrays the Emperor as almost...close to the Custodes, closer than he felt to the Primarchs.

They have a superior, one on one, hand to hand skill set that I don’t think can be equaled ‘straight up’ in a 1v1 brawl.

We also know this from novels that show Astartes examining their superior skill set, often noting that they ‘fight for themselves’. To the Astartes this could/has been viewed as a weakness considering the fields of war Astartes find themselves in, however for the Custodes their system of hand to hand prepares them for the most horrific threats of the Warp.

The ‘straight up’ consideration doesn’t take into account the immense Psychic threat Draigo presents. And when it comes to armament or relics between the two I think it’s a wash. Every Custodes is essentially a walking collection of relics Draigo is no exception there either.

At the end of the day it may sound like a cop out but I would find it believable if I read a story where either one of these guys bested each other. What a colossal brawl it could be though!

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#17
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I wonder if Kaldor will ever get a primaris power up mushroom..?
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#18
Lord_Caerolion

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I think that's something that's been swept under the rug by the design team, as after that one throwaway line mentioned way back, there's been absolutely no information about existing Space Marines being "upgraded" to Primaris.

 

Also, the Outcast Dead is pretty much disregarded by most fans, to my knowledge, due to the liberties it took with the canon. Most portrayals have the Custodes as superior (First Heretic, Master of Mankind, the Forge World black books), with the example mentioned by Prot, if it's the one I'm thinking of, is a squad of Gal Vorbak, the original Super-Possessed, taking down a squad of Custodes, but even they took strong casualties.

 

Also, when it comes to comparing rules, it's worth noting that when we look at the Horus Heresy rules, the equivalent of Valoris, Constantin Valdor, is more along the lines of a mini-Primarch rather than a souped-up Marine.


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#19
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Without psychic powers involved, I’d say Valoris has the edge on a purely martial basis. With Draigo’s psychic prowess factored in though...hard to say. Custodians do have some innate warp resistance, so that may help.

I think it would be a very long, drawn out battle of attrition, both demigods clashing for days on end before either gets the upper hand. And then they’d probably hug it out, have a pint together and go off to smite the Emperor’s foes in the greatest buddy adventure ever seen. :D

#20
Waking Dreamer

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Draigo wins. He’s functionally a holy daemon prince at this point in the fluff.

SJ

 

Unless he can kill Slannesh's chosen handmaidens, burn down nurgles plague gardens, make Khornes thirsty-est Bloodthirster fear him, and well I suppose confound Tzeentchs plots, Valoris has nothing on Draigo.

 

Oh and reforge a Nemesis Wepaon with nothing more than his bare hands.

 

This has to be my favourite topic in here since 8th started!

Lorewise... what a tough question to even attempt to be impartial about. I think unfortunately we do have precedence with an Heresy novel where a possessed Word Bearer takes down a Custodes (been a while since I read that one).

I don’t like the old Draigo Matt Ward era godlike rendition though and I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

Draigo's phenomenal feats in the Warp could only be achieved in the Warp though. Since the Immaterium feeds off and is affected by emotions, devotion and belief, Draigo with his specialised training, powerful psychic presence, and belief in the duty of the Grey Knights / Emperor - alters the very Warp itself around him. That's why Daemon's who choose to confront him inevitably loose because their resolve is less than that of Draigos. However, after Draigo passes through an area of the Warp, as is it's nature of constant change, no lasting damage is ever done - reverting back to what's relatively normality for that area.

 

His abilities would actually be more grounded once he returns to the Matterium, since the very environment of Real Space isnt directly affected by belief and emotion, but the traditional laws of physics etc.


Edited by Waking Dreamer, 08 February 2018 - 01:45 AM.


#21
Lord_Caerolion

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Doing all those things would require pretty powerful psychic abilities, which we don't fully have an idea of the extent of the Custodes inherent resistance to these.

 

What I'd more say is that all of these feats are being done against Daemons, which Draigo is literally designed to defeat. Everything about him, his training, his wargear, everything, is designed to make Daemons fear him, and make him better at defeating them. He doesn't have that advantage against Valoris. To make a terrible comparison, it's like saying Hurricane Bolters are going to be able to easily beat Land Raiders, because look at these stories of them massacring infantry.

 

What we don't have are any stories of Draigo effortlessly defeating non-Daemonic foes. I'm sure there are examples out there, but primarily our sources of "god-mode" Draigo are about him fighting enemies he has "cheat codes" for fighting.

 

Lets not also forget that the last time we have a canonical example of Custodes fighting against a powerfully psychic foe, the Thousand Sons, the Custodes, even without Sisterhood support, were incredibly powerful and kicked serious censored.gif


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#22
Capt. Mytre

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Draigo wins. He’s functionally a holy daemon prince at this point in the fluff.

SJ

 

Unless he can kill Slannesh's chosen handmaidens, burn down nurgles plague gardens, make Khornes thirsty-est Bloodthirster fear him, and well I suppose confound Tzeentchs plots, Valoris has nothing on Draigo.

 

Oh and reforge a Nemesis Wepaon with nothing more than his bare hands.

 

This has to be my favourite topic in here since 8th started!

Lorewise... what a tough question to even attempt to be impartial about. I think unfortunately we do have precedence with an Heresy novel where a possessed Word Bearer takes down a Custodes (been a while since I read that one).

I don’t like the old Draigo Matt Ward era godlike rendition though and I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

Draigo's phenomenal feats in the Warp could only be achieved in the Warp though. Since the Immaterium feeds off and is affected by emotions, devotion and belief, Draigo with his specialised training, powerful psychic presence, and belief in the duty of the Grey Knights / Emperor - alters the very Warp itself around him. That's why Daemon's who choose to confront him inevitably loose because their resolve is less than that of Draigos. However, after Draigo passes through an area of the Warp, as is it's nature of constant change, no lasting damage is ever done - reverting back to what's relatively normality for that area.

 

His abilities would actually be more grounded once he returns to the Matterium, since the very environment of Real Space isnt directly affected by belief and emotion, but the traditional laws of physics etc.

 

 

Someone's forgetting about a certain Demon Primarch with a name carved into his rotten heart by Dr. Draigo.



#23
Prot

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Someone's forgetting who wrote that. lol

 

I also think of Gift.... where an angry space wolves dude walked up to a Grey Knight master swordsman and quickly beheads him. Crazy stuff. No inclination of psychic prescience, no understanding of a threat... just dead.

 

I think the only edge Draigo has is Psykery... it's a good edge, but someone of Valoris' stature and skill level is going to give him a hand to hand edge. Draigo has immense skill too but I think it would take some psychic assisted event to tip the scale. Really hard call though. Like I said, I could see this ending either way.


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#24
Ezr91aeL

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Don't forget that Valoris won the Blood Game TWO TIMES. You know what that means? That he was litterally able to reach the throne room piercing the entire Imperial Palace defences (and that includes the whole Adeptus Custodes) not one but two time. That's enought to talk about every kind of skill that Valoris could have.


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#25
Waking Dreamer

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Draigo's phenomenal feats in the Warp could only be achieved in the Warp though. Since the Immaterium feeds off and is affected by emotions, devotion and belief, Draigo with his specialised training, powerful psychic presence, and belief in the duty of the Grey Knights / Emperor - alters the very Warp itself around him. That's why Daemon's who choose to confront him inevitably loose because their resolve is less than that of Draigos. However, after Draigo passes through an area of the Warp, as is it's nature of constant change, no lasting damage is ever done - reverting back to what's relatively normality for that area.

His abilities would actually be more grounded once he returns to the Matterium, since the very environment of Real Space isnt directly affected by belief and emotion, but the traditional laws of physics etc.

Someone's forgetting about a certain Demon Primarch with a name carved into his rotten heart by Dr. Draigo.
Have you read Mortarion's Heart? It describes in great detail of what actually transpired during that epic battle, and it portrays a very legitimate confrontation between the two:

1. Young GM Draigo was the best swordsman of the GKs at the time.
2. Draigo retrieves the Titan Sword that was left on the battlefield when the previous SGM was slain.
3. Mortarion mocking Draigo, the GKs and even Janus, the newly appointed SGM discovers his opponent has layer upon layer of psychic defences against the hated witches!
4. Draigo rather, drew upon his psychic power and enhances himself, while also being amped by his GK Librarian (think Sanctuary + Might of Heroes).
5. Engaged in melee combat, in just barely deflecting / dodging Mortarion's killing strikes, Draigo's psychic reserves were being exhausted (his precog. was being overwhelmed in just keeping up).
6. Mortarion's daemonic talon feet inevitable pins down Draigo into dirt as all the Nurgle daemons around them cheer!
7. Mortarion's wings build up a swirling Vortex of Miasma around both of them (the same attack that killed the previous SGM and his Paladin retinue).
8. As Mortarion is gripping Draigo's helmet to rip it off and expose him to the Miasma -
9. Draigo uses his last ounce of psychic power to set Mortarion's robes a light with psychic flame - which quickly engulfs the Primarch's entire body due to the swirling Vortex.
10. Mortarion still gripping Draigo's helmet, is enraged and curses the cunningness of this "GK witch"!
11. During the Daemon Primarch's anger, Draigo realises a moment where Mortarion's psychic defences are down.
12. In that brief moment Draigo psychically and silently slips Mortartion's True Name into the Daemon Primarch's mind.
13. Violently, Mortarion trembles, and then erupts from the inside shattering his wings, body and armour to pieces - disintegrating all the Daemons around them as well!
14. As the wheezing Daemon Primarch is found broken bodied in the dirt...slowly dissolving back into the warp, Draigo approaches and gazes upon the exploded chest cavity with the erratic beating of a black heart inside, Titan Sword in hand...

So yeah, while Draigo was fighting valiantly, he was clearly loosing the battle, and only had the slimmest chance of victory because he was passed down Mortarion's True Name (a very closely guarded GK secret). Actually, while in choosing Draigo to be the new SGM, and thereby claiming the Titan Sword and the secret of the True Name (as only the SGM was to ever posses the knowledge), he admitted to the other GMs as he prepared for battle, they would likely need to chose another SGM before the day was done...

Edited by Waking Dreamer, 09 February 2018 - 07:57 AM.





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