The Lion and the Wolf... Can you have 1+ Weapon Skill?

[Syphid]

Rules question regarding The Lion and the Wolf strategem.  If I use it on a model that already have 2+ WS, can its WS improve to 1+? Now knowing that a roll to hit of 1 is always a miss, would a 1+ WS give you the benefit of negating things that cause -1 to hit, such as Thunder Hammer/Power Fist, photon grenades, Drain and Aversion psychic powers, etc so that you would still hit on a 2+?

[Hoots]

I'd have thought so,

As you say the 1's will still miss as standard but it should help offset the instances where there is a minus. 

 

Hoots 

[Indefragable]

A “1+” armor save is effectively 2+ with a +1 to AP (as in AP-2 becomes AP-1).

 

I.e. a Terminator cover gets a 3+ armor save against AP-2 weapons.

 

...so I imagine you are correct in that 1’s To Hit still miss but any units (like sneaky Xenos) with -1 modifiers To Hit are ignored.

[Normal Norman]

I have sent a question into GW FAQs asking about this. I pressume yes. It does make a Thunderhammer, Jump Pack, Storm Shield and Shroud of Heroes Master absolutely baller.

[JJD]

The -1 to hit roll modifier is applied after the roll in which case +1WS wouldn’t help but +1 to hit rolls would.

[Normal Norman]

I think it would. You need to roll equal or over your weapon skill. If you roll a 2 and have a modifier of -1 your 2 becomes a 1 but your WS is 1+ so you still hit.

[JJD]

I am pretty sure you are wrong Norman

 

If the rule reads something like reduce the WS by 1 then it works.

 

In 8th the rules tends to read reduce the dice roll by 1 in which case a higher ws is no help.

[Normal Norman]

I haven’t got my rulebook around to check but I believe a natural roll of a 1 automatically misses not a modified roll of a 1. The Thunderhammer does deduct 1 from the to hit roll but that would only turn a 2 into a modified 1 and not a natural 1. A modified 1 would then be equal or greater than the Company Masters Weapon Skill.

[Helycon]

If anyone has Facebook, why not ask GW?

 

I don't, I'm a hermit. *Strokes 3 foot beard*

[JJD]

I am pretty sure you are wrong Norman

 

If the rule reads something like reduce the WS by 1 then it works.

 

In 8th the rules tends to read reduce the dice roll by 1 in which case a higher ws is no help.

[STTAB]

From core rules;

"A roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifiers that may apply."

 

Unfortunate. I was looking at using lion and wolf to get those thunder hammers hitting on 2's. The stratagem does say model so you could hide it on a sergeant who has more than 1 wound, like a primaris. If you are running an apothecary then an aggressor, inceptor or hellblasters seargents might be a nice touch to get them to 2+ BS and WS and make them scarier in close combat.

 

I was playing with a DA command tank list since I already have them. You can give the Excelsior +2 to hit if you want but the 1's will fail... But really the +2 would be to carve through - to hit buggery.

[STTAB]

Although, a smash-master with shroud of heroes would still make a valid knight killer when using lion and wolf. I was going for a rune priest, who can cast a -1 to hit. Master with shroud of heroes for -1 to hit and a DA librarian who can cast -1 to hit. If you degrade a knight 1 bracket he can't hit back so you could move and advance a master within 1" (to avoid overwatch which always hits on a 6), he can't touch you, then you swing away freely.

[Orkinstein]

From core rules;

"A roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifiers that may apply."

 

Unfortunate. I was looking at using lion and wolf to get those thunder hammers hitting on 2's. The stratagem does say model so you could hide it on a sergeant who has more than 1 wound, like a primaris. If you are running an apothecary then an aggressor, inceptor or hellblasters seargents might be a nice touch to get them to 2+ BS and WS and make them scarier in close combat.

 

I was playing with a DA command tank list since I already have them. You can give the Excelsior +2 to hit if you want but the 1's will fail... But really the +2 would be to carve through - to hit buggery.

 

But it only +1 WS not BS. And it only works on infantry models. 

[BlackTriton]

Here is the break down of the sequence of event:

 

-Model improves his 2+ WS to 1+ Ws

(Nothing prevents a model to be 1+ Ws)

We roll for an attack using a thunder hammer against a -1 to hit unit:

 

Roll the dice, result = “3”

• unmodified result of “1” is a failure : result is “3” = success
• check the Ws of the model: “roll of 3” > “Ws 1+” = success
• apply modificator #1: -1 to the result (thunder hammer) : result is now 2
• apply modificator #2: -1 to the result (target ability) : result is now 1
• recheck the Ws of the model: modified result is 1 = “Ws 1+” = success

even though the end result is a “1”, its still greater or equal to the unit Ws. There is no rule stating that a modified result of 1 is always a failure, and our unmodified result is not a “1”.

[Orkinstein]

Here is the break down of the sequence of event:

 

-Model improves his 2+ WS to 1+ Ws

(Nothing prevents a model to be 1+ Ws)

We roll for an attack using a thunder hammer against a -1 to hit unit:

 

Roll the dice, result = “3”

• unmodified result of “1” is a failure : result is “3” = success
• check the Ws of the model: “roll of 3” > “Ws 1+” = success
• apply modificator #1: -1 to the result (thunder hammer) : result is now 2
• apply modificator #2: -1 to the result (target ability) : result is now 1
• recheck the Ws of the model: modified result is 1 = “Ws 1+” = success

even though the end result is a “1”, its still greater or equal to the unit Ws. There is no rule stating that a modified result of 1 is always a failure, and our unmodified result is not a “1”.

 

Yes. And the modified result cannot lower then 1. So even if there are more then -1, a master will always hit on 2+s and reroll 1s. 

[STTAB]

Ok. Thanks for laying that out. So the master would hit on 2's rerolling ones.

 

With the new chapter tactics for space wolves, a wolf guard battle leader gets +1 to hit. But practically it would be the same end result unless he was trying to hit something with a -1 to hit in close combat, then he'd still hit on 2's.

 

No problem with using Lion and Wolf on an infantry model within a unit?

[Cadian16th]

Here is the break down of the sequence of event:

 

-Model improves his 2+ WS to 1+ Ws

(Nothing prevents a model to be 1+ Ws)

We roll for an attack using a thunder hammer against a -1 to hit unit:

 

Roll the dice, result = “3”

• unmodified result of “1” is a failure : result is “3” = success
• check the Ws of the model: “roll of 3” > “Ws 1+” = success
• apply modificator #1: -1 to the result (thunder hammer) : result is now 2
• apply modificator #2: -1 to the result (target ability) : result is now 1
• recheck the Ws of the model: modified result is 1 = “Ws 1+” = success

even though the end result is a “1”, its still greater or equal to the unit Ws. There is no rule stating that a modified result of 1 is always a failure, and our unmodified result is not a “1”.

 

I don't believe that's correct. BRB states that Strength, Toughness, and LD can never be modified below 1, but nothing about WS/BS.

[BlackTriton]

Would you explain what you beleive is wrong?

 

I fail to see how the limitation on St, T and Ld are relevant to this discution. Beside that if WS had a similar limitation, it would be mentioned at the same place in the BRB.

[Shas Oh Dear]

Would you explain what you beleive is wrong?

 

I fail to see how the limitation on St, T and Ld are relevant to this discution. Beside that if WS had a similar limitation, it would be mentioned at the same place in the BRB.

I think despite what he quoted he was responding to orkinstein.

[Orkinstein]

 

Here is the break down of the sequence of event:

 

-Model improves his 2+ WS to 1+ Ws

(Nothing prevents a model to be 1+ Ws)

We roll for an attack using a thunder hammer against a -1 to hit unit:

 

Roll the dice, result = “3”

• unmodified result of “1” is a failure : result is “3” = success
• check the Ws of the model: “roll of 3” > “Ws 1+” = success
• apply modificator #1: -1 to the result (thunder hammer) : result is now 2
• apply modificator #2: -1 to the result (target ability) : result is now 1
• recheck the Ws of the model: modified result is 1 = “Ws 1+” = success

even though the end result is a “1”, its still greater or equal to the unit Ws. There is no rule stating that a modified result of 1 is always a failure, and our unmodified result is not a “1”.

 

I don't believe that's correct. BRB states that Strength, Toughness, and LD can never be modified below 1, but nothing about WS/BS.

 

 

It is from DESIGNERS’ COMMENTARY:

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

 

Q: Can a dice roll ever be modified to less than 1?

A: No. If, after all modifiers have been applied, a dice roll would be less than 1, count that result as a 1.

[BlackTriton]

I must have missed that at the time, thanks for the link!

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I don't know how it happened but we now have wwo threads around with the same question about this stratagem. Since this one was necromanced I will shut this one down.