Codex Timeline and Models?

[The Saint Ragnar]

With the announcement of the next three codices I wanted to open a discussion on when we think our Codex will come out and what we will see with it as far as models. I will start off sharing my thoughts and hopes based on some rumors that have been floating around and what we have seen so far from GW with the new codices.

 

Codex Timeline:

 

I would hope we see our Codex in the May-April time but given how many of these smaller Codices are coming out I think we could see it in June. i think we will see our release as a standalone release for a month given my thoughts on the next topic. I think without our Codex we are a very strong army so that makes me wonder what the Codex will offer and if we will see a possible nerf (I will go over what I think that will be also in the next section)?

 

Model Releases:

 

I will start with the burning topic in my mind, will we see Leman Russ return to 40k? My hope and thoughts are yes. We have one of the couple of remaining living Primarchs and we have been given a good beating by the Thousand Sons leaving us to believe this would be the Wolf Time.

 

In a business sense, it would make sense to give us a standalone release and have Russ come out. He is a big model and the Space Wolves are big enough where they could sustain their own release month on model and Codex sales. So far the other loyalist Primarchs that are alive have had their codices come out with no model so that again makes me believe we will see him.

 

Another thought on this is that we could see Russ and it would serve as a "nerf" to our army. Let me explain this as it seems a little weird. Currently our forces are strong and GW would not want to release a Codex that blatantly nerfs the army as people would be all types of butthurt. But, if they were to release a single model (Russ) worth ~350+ points that looks good and would become an "auto-include" then in a sense they would be giving us a soft nerf. They would do this by in a sense reducing the points we use in any list of build by a determined number of points because we will want to include that model. So for a 2000 point game our army only really has 1650 points worth.

 

We could also see new Primaris releases for the SW on top of Russ which would again make sense as we love our pelts (much to PETAs fury) and some upgrade kits or a model like the BA and DA got would sell well. Maybe we could see a brand new assault unit for the Primaris marketed towards the SW as we are an assault heavy army (with some good Dakka as well).

 

Of course, this is all theory and basically a wish list so please feel free to comment and discuss thoughts and alternative theories.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

I will start with the burning topic in my mind, will we see Leman Russ return to 40k? My hope and thoughts are yes. We have one of the couple of remaining living Primarchs and we have been given a good beating by the Thousand Sons leaving us to believe this would be the Wolf Time.

 

Thing is though, that beating (by which I assume you mean the Warzone Fenris debacle) was over 100 years ago from the current 'present' of 40k. So using that as the justification for the return of Russ just seems a bit off. The real purpose of that beating was, imo, an earlier version of the 'Primaris Prep' we've seen for most other major Chapters. Bad thing happens, massive casualties, then convenient Primaris reinforcement. Of course, depending on when the Indomitus Crusade reaches Fenris/The Wolves, enough time could still have passed that the Chapter has recovered significantly via the old fashioned method too. So who knows? They may even dole out another beating to 'justify' the return of Russ (which would further conform they have no clue what they're doing regarding the fluff).

 

 

In a business sense, it would make sense to give us a standalone release and have Russ come out. He is a big model and the Space Wolves are big enough where they could sustain their own release month on model and Codex sales. So far the other loyalist Primarchs that are alive have had their codices come out with no model so that again makes me believe we will see him.

Not sure how much, aside from Russ, which seems a reasonably safe bet, but I'm certainly expecting a few new kits. If they were goijg to do a basic 'codex only' type job. I'd have expected to see a dex by now, contemporaneous with the BAs and DAs.

 

 

Another thought on this is that we could see Russ and it would serve as a "nerf" to our army. Let me explain this as it seems a little weird. Currently our forces are strong and GW would not want to release a Codex that blatantly nerfs the army as people would be all types of butthurt. But, if they were to release a single model (Russ) worth ~350+ points that looks good and would become an "auto-include" then in a sense they would be giving us a soft nerf. They would do this by in a sense reducing the points we use in any list of build by a determined number of points because we will want to include that model. So for a 2000 point game our army only really has 1650 points worth.

I really don't get this. The point of an 'auto-include' is that it's so good it's a no brainer to take. So an auto-include Russ would pretty much always be giving at least ~350 points (for example) 'worth' to the army, so functionally isn't really a handicap. The only way Russ could be a 'nerf' in that way is if he was the only way to gain important rules (say, can only use stratagems if Russ is in the army) and being overcosted for what he brings. If he's just overcosted, he'll never be taken, so can hardly be considered a 'nerf' to the army, just a choice (which would be it's own tradegy, unless it's Wulfen Russ, that's already a tragedy, regardless of crunch).

[Karack Blackstone]

Rumors seem to be bouncing back and forth between some time in February, and around May/June.

 

Still, to your post:

 

If Russ is a waste, that is sad, to begin with; if Russ is a Wulfen or a big Werewolf, then that said fluff and lore needs to be revisited, and soon.

 

As far as new kits, we can expect at the least Wolves Intercessors, likely Wolves Reivers, and maybe one other Primaris choice from the available troops options. The Wolves will also likely gain access to the Redemptor Dreadnought kit, in a SW kit of some sort.

 

The single biggest issue right now is, for me, all baseline Marines, non-Primaris, such as Tactical, Grey Hunter, Crusader, and even Chaos never seem to be able to earn back their points on the table. A regular Tac and equivalent is worth three and one-quarter Gaurdsmen; how often does any one Marine pull that kind of weight?

 

That's really for another thread though; so, basically, if Wolves get more and better Long Fang options, I'm fine with that. I would love Grav, and, to type it, Grav and Helfrost are not the same thing, just as, Melta and Plasma are not the same thing. I'd love both Grav and Helfrost weapons on our Long Fangs; the problem is, GW hasn't really proven all that great at the balance crunch these days.

 

On a revisit of the Russ discussion, an auto-include is literally bad balance, writing, fluff, and handling of the game. If Russ is not fairly points-valued out, then it just proves that GW is slowly losing sight of the right way to approach the fluff and introduction of new units, long term. There's no reason for an auto-include in any capacity, or, for a nerf unit, either.

 

Considering that the Spartan is a pretty decent yet expensive Lord of War choice now, Russ being under or over costed is just sad, should that prove to be the case. If, however, he is fairly costed, then there's still hope for the game, and the eventual improvements to either 8th Ed., or a possible 9th Ed., where walls block charges, and LOS on tanks makes sense.

[Blackraw]

Nice thread. I like the speculations, though so sad we have to wait so long.

I am struggling to think what else GW can bring us in terms of new units, I think we have kinda solid selection of HQ and various infantry options. Some frost-canon powered vehicle? the canons from flyers (both the big one and the turret) could actually fit into some land vehicles. Or a thunderwolves-powered sledge to transport the BlizzDread, lol.

Russ would be great, though we have Bjorn already, which is a tough guy, gives some re-rolls and +1CP, wracks face in the melee and do have shooting options. We have decent amount of sources of buffs, like RP Storm Caller, WP, WGBL, Arjac, Wullfen etc. I just think that going for really juiced with stats and buffs units may not be the best option, and I would rather see some new mechanics introduced. However, the big chunk of GW customers buy for hobby, not for rules, and who would not want to buy that cool of a guy!

Being assault-focused army it will be great if we get some stratagems/psychic powers to support it, like a one-time immune to overwatch or +inche(s) to reroll or roll 3 charge rolls - pick 2 highest etc. Though I do not have any complaints about our assault skills. Save for maybe few options for VenDread, like some psychics power to push him with the howling wind or so!

 

[Blackraw]

 

The single biggest issue right now is, for me, all baseline Marines, non-Primaris, such as Tactical, Grey Hunter, Crusader, and even Chaos never seem to be able to earn back their points on the table. A regular Tac and equivalent is worth three and one-quarter Gaurdsmen; how often does any one Marine pull that kind of weight?

 

Well, I remember that I grabbed the big starter box to get a new rulebook which made me think why do not I build an army to utilize the primaris I have there as after many comparison I found intercessors so much superior to other alternatives. But then I started to build the models and to read the wolves fluff and and now it makes me so sick.

 

The GH/BC are so cool, they have so many bits for customization, they are fluffy guys, nice rules and kits and so on. But the intercessors are so good for their points.. With so much 1 damage attacks in game, the 2W makes them really outstanding in this comparison. Just think of it - 5 mortal wounds from smite wipes out the GH unit or leaves you with 3 intercessors out of 5 alive. 

 

I wish they had T4->T5 instead of W1->W2 upgrade. 

 

A big question for me is how GW will make them into SW fluff? 

[Karack Blackstone]

 

 

The single biggest issue right now is, for me, all baseline Marines, non-Primaris, such as Tactical, Grey Hunter, Crusader, and even Chaos never seem to be able to earn back their points on the table. A regular Tac and equivalent is worth three and one-quarter Gaurdsmen; how often does any one Marine pull that kind of weight?

Well, I remember that I grabbed the big starter box to get a new rulebook which made me think why do not I build an army to utilize the primaris I have there as after many comparison I found intercessors so much superior to other alternatives. But then I started to build the models and to read the wolves fluff and and now it makes me so sick.

 

The GH/BC are so cool, they have so many bits for customization, they are fluffy guys, nice rules and kits and so on. But the intercessors are so good for their points.. With so much 1 damage attacks in game, the 2W makes them really outstanding in this comparison. Just think of it - 5 mortal wounds from smite wipes out the GH unit or leaves you with 3 intercessors out of 5 alive. 

 

I wish they had T4->T5 instead of W1->W2 upgrade. 

 

A big question for me is how GW will make them into SW fluff? 

 

 

Over in Amicus Aedes there's a thread actively discussing how to reasonably fix Marines, non-Primaris, at that, long term.

 

The ideas keep going back and forth, few, if any, seem willing to consider the perspectives of others, and, to say it, this is a very likely heavily watched thread by the mods.

 

I don't blame them one bit; the issue is a touchy subject across most of the major sections of the current forum, at least, from my perspective. Loyal and Chaos really need some lovin'; the problem is, as I typed out above, fixes and those willing to be both subjective and objective are few and far between. Still, it's a seriously needed discussion.

 

As far as the Primaris versus nor-Marines debate and stat line comparison goes, I personally am of the opinion that, the best fix is to recalculate the points values for Primaris and just declare that Cawl, or, someone else, has figured out a Primaris Mark II set of implants that grant the newly worth 16 points Primaris stat line to both model sizes. This seems to me to be the best long term fix; no models are invalidated, and, people are free to mix and match, if upgrade kits are made available to allow the two sizes to have the other's wargear. Such as, a Tactical Squad, or, Grey Hunters, in our case, can be normal Marine sized, and have the Primaris Bolt Rifle or other options, and, Intercessors are able to take boltguns, etc.

 

For the record, and, please, do not take this as an insult: if any of you decide to go post in the thread I mentioned above and in this post, please, bring your experiences, opinions, and observations; type what you wish, and, please try to contribute both objectively and subjectively, and, as always, constructively. I have my points raised thus far; as always, internal bias on even my part makes the possibility of a sudden influx of new posters weighing in possibly too heavily in support of one person's ideas might overly swing the thread against an opinion and line of thinking that needs to be left to its own merits to withstand the discussion.

[The Saint Ragnar]

On the topic of Russ, I realize my description lacked the definition of what I meant.

 

When I put "auto-include" I meant that he is fairly costed, maybe a little over to where you would include him in a larger list but would not bring him every time. For those points you could get another squad of Wulfen or two squads of Long Fangs which can potentially add much more to a force than a single model could, even a Primarch. 

 

I think at this point in 8th edition number of bodies on the board has a large factor so giving up bodies for a single, buff model could mean victory or defeat in certain cases. Not always, but some.

 

I just think it would be a nuanced way for GW to help balance us to not be OP when we get our Codex without it feeling like we are nerfed. But again, that is just a theory and I completely get the other comments that are discussed above about Russ.

 

Does anyone else feel like we might not get much of a power boost in the Codex or is that just me?

Edited February 2, 2018 by The Saint Ragnar

[Deadnaughty]

On the topic of Russ, I realize my description lacked the definition of what I meant.

 

When I put "auto-include" I meant that he is fairly costed, maybe a little over to where you would include him in a larger list but would not bring him every time. For those points you could get another squad of Wulfen or two squads of Long Fangs which can potentially add much more to a force than a single model could, even a Primarch. 

 

I think at this point in 8th edition number of bodies on the board has a large factor so giving up bodies for a single, buff model could mean victory or defeat in certain cases. Not always, but some.

 

I just think it would be a nuanced way for GW to help balance us to not be OP when we get our Codex without it feeling like we are nerfed. But again, that is just a theory and I completely get the other comments that are discussed above about Russ.

 

Does anyone else feel like we might not get much of a power boost in the Codex or is that just me?

A good chapter trait, some nice strategems and a Primarch. What more do we need? The SW codex is a solid foundation.

 

Also I would expect him to be priced around Girlymam levels but a little more conservative based on the needed nerfs to Gman and Magnus. 

[Jarl Caldersson]

I am asking too much but Russ, some Wolf Guard-esque Primaris, return to HH SW style and a decent codex

[Rockythedog]

I imagine we will be getting a Primaris lieutenant like the BA and those dirty robe wearing cultists......sorry I mean Dark Angels.

That and some upgrade bits too

[Arentius]

Considering the fact we are the last loyalist chapter to get rules it makes sense we are getting a separate release.

 

As Dorn Just came out for 30k that’s another strike off who can return to 40k and Just makes Russ all the more likely.

 

I’ve heard whispers from various people in GW for an August release which will include russ and new long fangs with a helfrost...I have no sources and no verification just whispers so take all the salt.

 

I’m hoping for a better psychic discipline than what we currently have as it feels very limited to me.

 

I’m also hoping for some sort of interactions with fenrisian wolves and characters as ablative wounds like we used to take.

 

But hey...fingers crossed just for a good codex :)

 

The only important thing of note was several people who were at the gamesday where custodes were showcased asked about russ and whether he would be wulfen or not, the rules writers stated “He’s not a wulfen he’s still himself” if we consider that statement to be true it means there is information on russ which would only be there if he’s coming back (even if only in a lore format) else why else would they be so certain?

 

Eh time will tell I guess?

[Jarl Caldersson]

The only important thing of note was several people who were at the gamesday where custodes were showcased asked about russ and whether he would be wulfen or not, the rules writers stated “He’s not a wulfen he’s still himself” if we consider that statement to be true it means there is information on russ which would only be there if he’s coming back (even if only in a lore format) else why else would they be so certain?

Eh time will tell I guess?

The lore since the beginning was that Russ was immune to the curse of the Wulfen. Been more than a few time it's been reported that GW staff and writers have said he is immune. Then we get :removed: and Wulfen fans that go "well the warp..." and we get the same response that Russ is immune. It seems to have been raised up again with the rumor Russ is coming back and GW and writers are sticking to their original answer.

[MaveriK]

For those who want a wulfen Russ, just play and use Bran Redmaw. For those who want a wulfen Russ, just remember... it will take away from what makes Bran Redmaw unique. For those who want Russ to come back as a wulfen. It just cheapens his character as someone who is an alpha and an apex predator that couldn’t handle his inner beast. It would just be a sad, pathetic and lazy for Russ to succumb. Remember the saying, “it takes a vast amount of self control to be this dangerous” you might as well play World Eaters and be rabid dogs than be cunning/savage/noble/unrelenting space Vikings... think more grimdark and less world of Warcraft furry wolf Mac-wolf-wolf.

[Arentius]

I was not aware Russ was established to be immune to the curse, could you drop me a link to that as I’d love to read up on it

[Deadnaughty]

Considering the fact we are the last loyalist chapter to get rules it makes sense we are getting a separate release.

 

As Dorn Just came out for 30k that’s another strike off who can return to 40k and Just makes Russ all the more likely.

 

I’ve heard whispers from various people in GW for an August release which will include russ and new long fangs with a helfrost...I have no sources and no verification just whispers so take all the salt.

 

I’m hoping for a better psychic discipline than what we currently have as it feels very limited to me.

 

I’m also hoping for some sort of interactions with fenrisian wolves and characters as ablative wounds like we used to take.

 

But hey...fingers crossed just for a good codex

 

The only important thing of note was several people who were at the gamesday where custodes were showcased asked about russ and whether he would be wulfen or not, the rules writers stated “He’s not a wulfen he’s still himself” if we consider that statement to be true it means there is information on russ which would only be there if he’s coming back (even if only in a lore format) else why else would they be so certain?

 

Eh time will tell I guess?

No offense but that rumor is pretty much debunked already considering GW's publicly stated goal of all codexes released by the 1 year anniversery, which is June.

[Jarl Caldersson]

I was not aware Russ was established to be immune to the curse, could you drop me a link to that as I’d love to read up on it

 

I unfortunately cannot as I have never been to a open day, can never get the military to give me more than 1 week of leave. So I have to rely on forums/reddit for this information, as chapter master valerak and other have stated. This has been going on for at least 3 years now it seems.

[Gherrick]

In our codex, I hope to see the following:

 

Russ: I do hope Russ returns with an Odin-esque demeanor. Our leader should be overflowing with cunning and ferocity, not mindless rage. I don't want to see him "simply" grant rerolls in an aura.

 

Helfrost: a better rule, and more available to infantry (TDA and LF) and vehicles (RB, LR, and dreads). Have a 6 on a wound roll convert that damage to mortal wound. We don't currently have a reasonable source of mortal wounds, and helfrost would work well for that.

 

TWC: PLEASE buff them so I'll start using them again. I cannot justify ever using them over WG bikers or Wulfen, and I am quite saddened by that. They need something in exchange for nada shooting options, and should be able to outflank for free and/or prevent an enemy unit from withdrawing.

[Jarl Caldersson]

I am enjoying the fact that every list isn't "TWC & wulfen" now, so I'd rather see TWC stay this way. They shouldn't be a must take in every army list.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

My thoughts on our release:

 

Rules/power- we will likely only get a power boost in the sense of strategems and relics and perhaps a couple point adjustments, though chapter approved really handled the point thing pretty well.

 

Models/Units- I suspect we will see russ (more on that below) otherwise I think the only models we will see are an update to the resins (If we are lucky as this has not been widespread for 8th ed releases) and an upgrade sprue for primaris marines. Honestly our range is reasonably up to date on the grand scale so I doubt will see much. (Ragnar being the one poor model in serious need of an update)

 

Russ- I am pretty sure Russ is returning to 40k. There's the aforementioned rumors that reinforce this, however I see a bigger reason for tgem to release him. With the release of 2 demon promarchs for chaos they will be seeking balance plotwise I think. Right now it's 2 versus 1 and I feel like GW is gunna want to release a loyalist next to swing the plot into more of a balance. They always balanced out the traitors an loyalists in the past, 9 traitors, 9 loyal (I know the Alpha legion is fuzzy, but then so are the Dark angels a bit so really there's more balance there) and I expect that to continue as the fluff and releases advance.

 

These are just my opinions, no insights beside the occasional rumor so take as you will.

Edited February 3, 2018 by jbickb

[Blackraw]

In our codex, I hope to see the following:

 

Russ: I do hope Russ returns with an Odin-esque demeanor. Our leader should be overflowing with cunning and ferocity, not mindless rage. I don't want to see him "simply" grant rerolls in an aura.

 

Helfrost: a better rule, and more available to infantry (TDA and LF) and vehicles (RB, LR, and dreads). Have a 6 on a wound roll convert that damage to mortal wound. We don't currently have a reasonable source of mortal wounds, and helfrost would work well for that.

 

TWC: PLEASE buff them so I'll start using them again. I cannot justify ever using them over WG bikers or Wulfen, and I am quite saddened by that. They need something in exchange for nada shooting options, and should be able to outflank for free and/or prevent an enemy unit from withdrawing.

 

Helfrost: good suggestion, making this weapon a little bit more interesting (even if it will go with price increase) seems good, as I would like to have more unique gear, being just on par with other weapons.

 

I am enjoying the fact that every list isn't "TWC & wulfen" now, so I'd rather see TWC stay this way. They shouldn't be a must take in every army list.

 

Well, Wullfen and TWC seems to be the most unique units of SW and really thematic ones, both in terms of back and being assault-focused units. I do however think that TWC shall get just a little bit of buff, either some advance shenenigans or ability to be out-flanked with our stratagem (allow it to work on cavalry), extra attack, or make their TH have no -1h penalty. Any of this would make me happy. 

 

Re: the above discussion of potential nerf 

 

Frankly speaking, I do not think that we will wait for the whole year to get a nerfing codex. And I am not sure that we really need some nerf. Majority of our characters are not worth their points that much, some options are really good but at the same time costy enough.

Our own variation of regular guys, like GH and LF are really good (free chainswords + built-in 1s rerols), but I do not think they are that good to be nerfed. I do find Wullfen to be a really strong unit, but taking more then one is (or at maximum 2) rarely happens so I am not sure it spoils the balance anyhow.

 

[UniWolf]

I'm hoping that Terminators will become cheaper. I think they are too expensive to justify there inclusion in an army

 

[Triszin]

I think we'll see a frost weapons sprue separate for 15$. Have 2 helfrost pistols, a rifle, a shoulder/undermounted infantry cannon, helfrost melee weapons.

 

Russ model

 

Model for bulveyes, 13thco rules

 

Primaris ragnar

Primaris lieutenant

[Gherrick]

 

I'm hoping that Terminators will become cheaper. I think they are too expensive to justify there inclusion in an army

 

Lifting the 1 per 5 restriction on heavy weapons might be an idea. TDA need more offensive options.

[Jarl Caldersson]

Primaris ragnar

 

Reddit is saying GW confirmed that SM can't be "upgraded" to Primaris. Puts a bullet in a lot of people's fluff and means that eventually all the characters will die if Primaris are the future. Hopefully we can upgrade normal Marines.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

I was initially hoping for Company Tactics but I don't think that will happen nor do I think it should. It would be a bit unwieldy in an edition that it getting more unwieldy by the day.

 

I still would like to get Russ. All of the Primarchs so far have been good in their own way.  I hope they use RG as a base. The Reroll auras should be a given. And see where they take the design from there.

 

Maybe we will see some primaris kits. I hope that they make TDA and normal marines worth it.

 

The point cost of GH/BC when compared to other infantry just isn't worth it. I don't want them brought down in cost. I want them worth their cost with special rules.