b1soul Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 I would like a Dune-style politicking novel set in 30K or 40K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Amazon has WOlfsbane listed as October 9th. I'd be amazed if it is really that far out That’s the paperback, which comes out 6 months after the hardback - which is why I said April. But May is even longer to avoid spoilers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughingman Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Is this book pre or post Yarant (AKA Space wolves getting Curbed stomped)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battybattybats Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 I would like a Dune-style politicking novel set in 30K or 40K Agreed. There's a lot of areas in both era's that could work well with. And for those with the book willing to do spoiler posts I'm surely not the only one willing to learn in advance what it does say about Cawl in this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 I think Guilliman's return sets the stage for some intense politicking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_r_parker Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Ok, so last night I went cover to cover with this novel, something I don't often do, and I'm ready to give out some spoiler-free impressions and thoughts I have. Although technically nothing is every spoiler-free, and if you're wanting to come into this without any knowledge this I suggest you look away - I will be putting my thoughts down in spoiler tags, but I'm sure resulting discussion won't Fire Golem - this means you! Are we good?... Ok, let's begin. The first thing I will say is that there are parts that I thought were great, and there were parts I thought were either unnecessary or poorly executed. Overall it's still one of the better books of the series, but it's not without it's faults. To set the scene, the prologue is the first meeting between Russ and Horus directly after he's been found by the Emperor. Horus and the Big E are observing Russ and some of his 'pack' and discussing their induction into the Imperium and Russ being given the VIth Legion to command. It goes to great lengths within 3 pages to tell you that Horus is jealous of the fact that others will share in the Emperors presence, and he want's to be the sole person who does that. That Horus is a jealous sole, and that in time he'll become jealous of the Emperor. It's a nice scene in the way that it introduces Russ, and the way that the Emperor knows there's a difference between the Russ that his pack brothers sees and the actual Russ, with him constantly telling Horus not to underestimate him. There's a great bit where Russ and Horus are talking, and Russ is having problems with some of the words of the Imperium and is referring to aspects of Fenrisian life, Horus starts to correct Russ on the proper terminology and Russ is "Oh, ok. I only started learning your language 5 days ago" which amazes Horus. But the scene is very blunt in the overall message: Horus is a jealous soul... Book begins on Terra, and specifically the arrival of Sanguinius to Terra from Guillimans Little Heresy. Russ has been getting debriefs from the team that Malcador sent out to mark up the Venegeful Spirit for an attack, and last on his list is Loken. It's a good little piece between the last of the Loyal Lunar Wolves and the Wolf King, and the final question that Russ poses to Loken is great: "Can I kill him?" to which Loken eventually replies "No...". However even in this scene there's the telegraphing of future things, specifically the Spear. You're pointed to the Spear, towards the back of Russ command room where his other weapons are much closer to him, and the way that Russ keeps an eye on it because he doesn't fully trust it. And that's something that carries through the book - Russ doesn't like or trust the Spear, and only accommodates it because it's a gift from the Emperor that he made. He doesn't dare try to destroy it, but often tries to "accidentally" leave it behind places only to find it coming back to him. Even when Sanguinius returns and there's to be a meeting between the Primarchs on Terra, Russ stubbornly takes the Spear with him just in case the Emperor shows up, he doesn't want to seem ungrateful for it despite not liking it. The meeting of the Primarchs was a bit mixed. It had some great points but overall my impression of the Primarchs other than Russ were that they just felt underwhelming. The discussion between them felt like it could have been between mid-tier Astartes rather the pinnacle of the Emperors work, and the dialogue felt mostly interchangeable. The use of Librarians and Rune Priests, and the fundamental hypocrisy of Russ being one of the more vocal proponents of Nikea and the sanctioning of Magnus was brought up, and it was handled in such a way to make you go "That makes sense, guess we can move on to bigger things". Dorn is still fixated on defence, to which everyone but Russ is agreed upon and Russ announces that he's off to kill the Warmaster. Everyone in the room is against that, taking away a Primarch and a Legion from the defence of Terra - and in one of the funnier moments of the book Russ declares that should the Emperor himself decree that he should stay then he will. He then yells out to the Emperor to let him know he should stay, mocks a 'listening to the silence' by tilting his head slightly and more or less goes "... well, I think we have an answer". Russ is really likeable in this book. As his Legion is preparing to depart from Terra, Russ get's summoned by Malcador for a discussion, and a seemingly customary board game that has deeper meaning... Malcador reveals that Russ cannot defeat Horus with his new power, and that should Russ head out that neither he or the Emperor can see what will happen as a result. Russ is still determined to go, but need to take his Legion somewhere first before heading to the Venegeful Spirit for a confrontation with his brother, and leaves Malcador. Malcador notices that Russ has left his spear behind... With the last of the Rout ready to depart Terra, Russ gets a visit from Valdor on his flagship. Russ is somewhat surprised because he's been on Terra for 6 months and tried to get an audience with Vlador with no success, and as he's about to leave Valdor comes to him. Russ starts to question what's going on in the basement of the palace, with the fact that there is a noticeable Custode reduction around the palace. Valdor can't tell him anything, despite Russ correctly determining that there is a battle going on that the Emperor and the Custodes are heading up, and this is why the Emperor hasn't been seen in a long time. Even when Russ simply asks whether or not they're winning, Valdor still can't comment on it. Frustrated Russ demands to know why Valdor has come to see him here and now, to which Valdor replies "You left this behind when you spoke to Malcador" and the Spear is brought in on a velvet lined grave-trolley. OK GUY HALEY WE GET IT - THE SPEAR IS IMPORTANT!!!! So important that Captain-General of the Custodes has been tasked to return it to Russ despite the fact that Horus could literally be arriving in a matter of days... On a slightly more serious note, this could've been done better with Loken returning the Spear. There could have been a continuation of the meeting at the beginning of the book, Loken desperate to be taken along to face his Primarch again. Valdor didn't need to be in here just for that - and that is solely why he's in the book. Speaking of characters in this book for no good reason, Belisarius Cawl. At this point he's an acolyte in the Mechanicum who gets raised to the position fo Tech-Adept. He's stationed on a Forge World that's on a warp route to Beta Garmon, and as such is tactically important in the Heresy. He's smart, even by Mechanicum standards, and has way with working things out and creating things. But honestly, this is shoe-horned in at best as there's no actual connection between Cawl and this story other than to set up his 30k persona. The location of the Forge World is important, and anything relating to the events there could be handled by a disposable Tech-Adpet. Seeing as Cawl makes up a solid 10%-15% of the page count of this book, to me it feels really forced. Russ makes a stop of at Fenris to plan what he is going to do, and this is where the middle part of the book is set and is the best part, in my opinion. It feels very reminiscent of Prospero Burns in the description of the Aett, the way that the Rout talks to each other, and there's a lot of focus on Bjorn as he continues with his Primarchs favour despite being a low level in the overall pecking order. Oh, and he doesn't like being called 'The Fell-Handed', he prefers 'The One-Handed' and it's something that really grinds his gears. I won't speak to much about this part of the book, its the best part and is too full of spoilers. Back to the Forge World, because guess what? The traitors have arrived demanding compliance and loyalty to the Warmaster and Kelbor Hal. After a small battle the traitors win with the remaining Mechanicum pledging allegiance to the Warmaster directly - he actually shows up to a massive ceremony where all the Mechanicum individually pledge loyalty to Horus at his feet, or get their brains blown out by Abaddon. I'm not kidding here... And this is one of the main problems for me in the book, that Russ is written very well but every other Primarch doesn't get a similar treatment, Horus in particular. I don't understand why in the middle of an uprising he's leading, on his way to a tactically astute staging ground for a massive invasion of the Sol System comprising of 9 Legions and supporting forces beyond measure, that Horus has the time or the inclination to accept personal fealty from a large number of minor Mechanicum personnel. Except that it gives us a 'cool moment' of Cawl kneeling before the Warmaster, and despite having to say that he's on the side of the Warmaster decides that he can't ever serve someone that evil and has to get out of there. That's literally the only reason I can see that Horus is placed there, if it weren't for Cawl it would have been a random Sons of Horus captain accepting the surrender. So after returning to Fenris, and formulated a strategy where Russ can help the Imperium by confronting Horus even though he can't defeat the Warmaster (Hint: the spear is really important, in case you missed that earlier), the Rout makes it's way to the Venegeful Spirit. Because those markings on the Venegeful Spirit that the Knights Errant were placing about, they weren't just internal battle signs showing directions or high priority targets, there was also some specially designed runic powers that allow the Rune Priests to track the Venegeful Spirit through the galaxy. And they track him to this Forge World, where Russ takes the majority of his Legion (around 40,000 astartes) and his fleet to tackle the Warmaster. Again, without spoiling too much, there's a big battle with the bulk of the Rout boarding the Venegeful Spirit where they are massively outnumbered and outgunned. Russ eventually finds his way to Horus, and again poor writing for Horus leaves him twiddling his imaginary moustache as he tries to get Russ to join him, before giving up and flat out attacking him. Horus lives, Russ is badly injured but ultimately accomplishes what he set out to do, and the Rout are left to escape after taking horrendous casualties. With Russ being patched up and unable to lead the remaining jarls take the fleet to Yarrant. Horus gives Abaddon the command to pursue the wolf fleet, before moving his own towards Beta Garmon. And this is where the book ends. It might sound like I'm being overly harsh, but honestly the best parts of the book are the parts I don't want to talk about - people should experience it for themselves. Russ and the Wolves are portrayed brilliantly here. But this book does have it's problems. Whether it's forcing characters into the narrative, not being able to portray the other Primarchs (especially Horus) with any real depth or dimension, or lacking some subtlety in making you aware of key plot points. Overall I'd say this is a solid 7 out of 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 @m_r_parker How does Russ accomplish what he set out to do and how does the spear figure into that? Thanks a lot for the write-up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Enjoyable review, thank you for that. Russ & the Rout <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Can anyone give a spoilered review? book sounds great for wolf lovers, not liking what I am hearing about the Sons and Horus though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_r_parker Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 @b1soul In terms of what Russ needed to do, he needed to wound Horus with the spear. How did the spear figure into that? Well he shoved it right into Horus’ guts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagashnee Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 @b1soul In terms of what Russ needed to do, he needed to wound Horus with the spear. How did the spear figure into that? Well he shoved it right into Horus’ guts! So they wrote a entire book to make Sanguinius mark II? This....doesnt sound good. But will read it in full before making up my mind of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 @b1soul In terms of what Russ needed to do, he needed to wound Horus with the spear. How did the spear figure into that? Well he shoved it right into Horus’ guts! So they wrote a entire book to make Sanguinius mark II? This....doesnt sound good. But will read it in full before making up my mind of course. I won’t lie, that’s the first thing I thought of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Caldersson Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 I find it amusing that one of the wildest ideas that people said wouldn't happen, is what happened. Also how Cawl seemed to be shoved in there just to give him "confirmation that he's been around for 10k years, and is super smart guys. So now please accept the Primaris plot holes?" just like people said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huggtand Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 @b1soul In terms of what Russ needed to do, he needed to wound Horus with the spear. How did the spear figure into that? Well he shoved it right into Horus’ guts! So they wrote a entire book to make Sanguinius mark II? This....doesnt sound good. But will read it in full before making up my mind of course. Remember that they are rewriting some off the stuff in the old narrative. So long as they make Sanguinius sacrifice mean something worthwhile it´s sounds OK for me personally because it gives Russ a meaning where he did not have one before. If Russ opens a gap in Horus armour (if that is really what he does, I don´t know) then Sanguinius must have a different task now. Maybe he is going to open up Horus psychic defense or something similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 @ m_r_parker What prevented Horus from killing Russ? Did Horus just let him limp away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareddm Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 It sounds like it suffers from the similar issue of Dark Imperium, where the parts that are good are really good, but it's really obvious where Haley was asked, "Could you include a section to showcase New Model X?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagashnee Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 @b1soul In terms of what Russ needed to do, he needed to wound Horus with the spear. How did the spear figure into that? Well he shoved it right into Horus’ guts! So they wrote a entire book to make Sanguinius mark II? This....doesnt sound good. But will read it in full before making up my mind of course. Remember that they are rewriting some off the stuff in the old narrative. I do, if anything if they do end up pulling a massive retcon just to hand Russ a pre-existing narrative it would make it worse for me not better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huggtand Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Remember that they are rewriting some off the stuff in the old narrative. I do, if anything if they do end up pulling a massive retcon just to hand Russ a pre-existing narrative it would make it worse for me not better. I´m not worried that they are going to massive retcon Sanguinius from the last stand. It's more that they give him a good purpose for his sacrifice instead of standing doing nothing since there already is a chink in the armour. Since I do not have Wolfsbane I´m not sure what the spear does. Could be something else altogether, it's just speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbero666 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 They could have used Russ to bypass the Vengeful Spirit shields with some kind of occult artifact activated remotely during the Siege. That would have made Russ' plan useful without stepping over Sanguinius role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagashnee Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Remember that they are rewriting some off the stuff in the old narrative. I do, if anything if they do end up pulling a massive retcon just to hand Russ a pre-existing narrative it would make it worse for me not better. I´m not worried that they are going to massive retcon Sanguinius from the last stand. It's more that they give him a good purpose for his sacrifice instead of standing doing nothing since there already is a chink in the armour. I dont follow? You arent worried about them changing it because they will change it? Sanguinius already had all the purpose he needed, he was a loyal son, not afraid to die for what is right, even if any chance of victory has passed. The chink was just theoretical icing on the cake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Sanguinius already had all the purpose he needed, he was a loyal son, not afraid to die for what is right, even if any chance of victory has passed. The chink was just theoretical icing on the cake. Hell yeah. "It is known that Sanguinius was gifted with the power of prescient vision, able to see foresee what lay ahead. His soul was pure, and the prophesies he spoke of inevitably came to be. It can thus be surmised that he knew full well he was going to his doom when he confronted the Warmaster, and yet he went without hesitation. Whether this act was prompted by fatalism or loyalty to the Emperor is a point debated by many Imperial theologians lacking in faith. There is no doubt in the minds of the Blood Angels. They maintain that the Angel walked into the lion's den out of duty, knowing full well what the outcome would be." From the old Index Astartes BA article. Sanguinius's sacrifice is what it is. This spear thing might be done well or done poorly but Sanguinus didn't go in aiming to make a crack in Horus's armour for the Emperor to follow up. Bravely walking to his certain death and refusing his brother's offer are the emotionally resonant elements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Horus's armour would surely be repaired in time for when he faces sanguinius several months later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omega-soul Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Sanguinius already had all the purpose he needed, he was a loyal son, not afraid to die for what is right, even if any chance of victory has passed. The chink was just theoretical icing on the cake. Hell yeah. "It is known that Sanguinius was gifted with the power of prescient vision, able to see foresee what lay ahead. His soul was pure, and the prophesies he spoke of inevitably came to be. It can thus be surmised that he knew full well he was going to his doom when he confronted the Warmaster, and yet he went without hesitation. Whether this act was prompted by fatalism or loyalty to the Emperor is a point debated by many Imperial theologians lacking in faith. There is no doubt in the minds of the Blood Angels. They maintain that the Angel walked into the lion's den out of duty, knowing full well what the outcome would be." From the old Index Astartes BA article. Sanguinius's sacrifice is what it is. This spear thing might be done well or done poorly but Sanguinus didn't go in aiming to make a crack in Horus's armour for the Emperor to follow up. Bravely walking to his certain death and refusing his brother's offer are the emotionally resonant elements. But the point of "crack in the armour" is to show the futile of any actions - to show how powerful Horus become, so it was futile trying to kill him. And so if the Russ actually hurt Horus - that just mean that although Sanguinius is a loyal son - but worthless. The Sacrifice means that you exchange something for the price of life. So if Sanguinius just died... what the point? What the loyalists gets from it? So if Leman russ actually made something useful - he would be seen as the better son, because he changed something. Basicly it is he who sacrificed - didn't listened to everyone else, made a suicidal rush and changed something. So how the Sanguinius sacrifice can be more relevant in this situation? There is a scene of a "not-so-great-and-worthless-death-that-rarely-remembered" - the death of Ferrus Manus. Does he considered as a Martyr? But it's essentialy the same thing. I really hope that BL will retcon the finall battle, so that Sanguinius would be more useful, than just dead corpse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Can we.... oh I don't know, this idea might be a tad radical, but hear me out... Can we wait til we see what they do with this and Sanguinius, before whining about it when Wolfsbane hasn't even hit general publication yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealMcCagh Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Does it ever get in to why Russ doesn't like the spear? It looks funny? Makes him uncomfortable? Bad history with it? Doesn't match his color scheme? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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