Jump to content

Welcome to The Bolter and Chainsword
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Necromunda mission 'Looters'?

Necromunda game

  • Please log in to reply
6 replies to this topic

#1
totgeboren

totgeboren

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,581 posts
  • Location:Umeå, Sweden
  • Faction: Word Bearers

Hey all, I played the scenario 'Looters' yesterday, me being the defender. And I don't get it?

 

The defender starts with about half his gang, decided randomly, and gets jumped by the attackers entire gang. The attacker gets to pick tactics, while the defenders gets two at random. The defender is supposed to defend his loot crates.

Ok, so far so good, the defender is at a severe handicap, but something will make this a bit more interesting right?

 

Nope.

 

And to make matters worse, after our first round, I had three guys down and had not done a single wound to the enemy (Goliaths so no wonder. tongue.png). So reading through the scenario, I noticed that I could just bottle out then and there.

What would happen? I still had 4 crates, so 4 rep. -1 from bottling, so 3. My opponent would lose 2 rep from not having any crates, and I would get to keep all my credits.

 

Sure, some of the scenarios are unbalanced, but there is literally no carrot for the defender to stay and defend. The only thing that happens is that he gets more and more trashed (with guys injured) due to having all the odds stacked against him, while also losing out on credits and rep.
I played nice to my opponent and allowed him to steal two crates since my gang is in the lead in the campaign, but the way the scenario is written means there is never any reason for the defenders to stay.

 

Have we misunderstood something completely?


WfHLk2F.jpgETL_2014_Banner_V2_04_Primus_Inter_Paresgallery_29004_6198_3277.png
 
“What started out as a pleasant afternoon of drugs and surgery has not gone as planned.”

 

-Zoidberg

My Chaos stuff, Mansions of MadnessDescent 2ed, and home-made ZM board!


#2
Gorgoff

Gorgoff

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,395 posts
  • Location:Germany, Osnabrueck
  • Faction: IVth Legion
Yupp, you miss several points, chummer.

First I don't see the paragraph which allows you to bootle out whenever you want. Maybe I miss something, but the way I read it you don't have the choice. Because it is your home turf you get a bonus not to bottle even.
Second point is that you seem to have missed that the rest of your gang comes in as reserve.
Yes, you have to fight in lower numbers in the first two turns, but then?
You have the huge advantage, to now where he is and where he wants to go. Put your reserves to good use.
Third thing is, that he has to carry the crates back to his corner to win. That is not easy at all, because it takes an action to do this.
Lay ambushes an shoot him in the back.
Fourth thing is that you loose reputation if you run away and your cash for every box he gets. That is the main reason not to loose that fight.
Bring back Psycho Dad!
gallery_48988_10980_12646.png

#3
totgeboren

totgeboren

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,581 posts
  • Location:Umeå, Sweden
  • Faction: Word Bearers

Those scenarios that do not allow you to bottle out specify that (see the latest one in WD for example), so you can just bottle right away.

 

Yes, the gang comes as reserves, 1 dude at the end of the first round, 2 at the end of the second and so on.

Carrying a crate is a simple action, so can be done twice per turn per model.

Third is we basically only play 3D, so he has his entire table edge to use.

 

We generally play on a 3'x3' table. Due to him being able to deploy 6" forward, and the crates needing to be 12" away from each other, this means that turn one, he is likely able to reach around 2 crates. He can use Overseer or any of the tacic crads that give you extra move/actions. The models that are not sent forward into assault/1"-away-from-crates make a single move to try and shoot and pin the defenders. (In our case, reaching close combat turn 1 was no issue for the Goliaths with stim-slugs.)

 

The defender gets 1 lone random reserve at the end of turn 1, that you can send out on their own...

 

Even if an attacking model is pinned next to a crate, he can still stand up, pick up the crate and do a single move towards his friends who did a single move and shot. These models can then pick up the crate and do a move+move to their edge. So turn 2 two crates should be within the attacker exit edge.

 

After this the defenders get two dudes, but the attacker has already left with half the crates. If he has some dudes left on the table, he can try and survive with them, but in our case he managed to get all his models to his edge during turn 2, carrying 2 crates.

 

There is no possibility to lay an ambush, since you only have a single turn, with one random dude to attack the looters. Perhaps if you manage to down a few of the attackers dudes during your first turn, but that requires a lot of luck as you are outnumbers and do not have the initiative.

 

And as I said in the first post, yes, you get -1 Rep from bottling, but I get 4 rep from defending all the crates, while the enemy loses 2 rep from not taking any crates. So +3 rep to the defender and -2 to the attacker if you bottle right away.

 

Barring extreme dice rolls, the defender will only lose more and more dudes and credits the longer he remains.

 

I think the big issue is that you can do a move+move while carrying a crate. I mean, setting up a chain of just two dudes allows you to easily move a crate up to 20" a turn. :/

 

But as the scenario is, it's just a case of setting up and then removing the models after your first loss (which you will likely suffer turn 1 anyway).


WfHLk2F.jpgETL_2014_Banner_V2_04_Primus_Inter_Paresgallery_29004_6198_3277.png
 
“What started out as a pleasant afternoon of drugs and surgery has not gone as planned.”

 

-Zoidberg

My Chaos stuff, Mansions of MadnessDescent 2ed, and home-made ZM board!


#4
The laughing raven

The laughing raven

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 148 posts
  • Location:Carmarthenshire
The scenarios are supposed to be nasty, that was always the point, was a way for small gangs to nail opponents who have higher gang ratings. Although I have to say the goliaths coming with T4 as standard is a bit unbalanced in this game, S4 is fair enough but not both. Also next time you play him you spring an ambush and get your own back :)

#5
totgeboren

totgeboren

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,581 posts
  • Location:Umeå, Sweden
  • Faction: Word Bearers

The scenarios are supposed to be nasty, that was always the point, was a way for small gangs to nail opponents who have higher gang ratings. Although I have to say the goliaths coming with T4 as standard is a bit unbalanced in this game, S4 is fair enough but not both. Also next time you play him you spring an ambush and get your own back :)


I think I might not have gotten my point across properly...

The defender can bottle out immediately and get to keep their money, get rep and the defenders lose 2 rep.
So the defender wants to bottle out as fast as possible. At the same time, the attackers have an extreme advantage on the tabletop, which means every round they get will be brutal for the defenders.

The problem is a case of carrot-or-stick. The defenders get absolutely no carrot for staying around while being slaughtered, so why would they?

Tried out sabotage too. Same thing there. Every turn I did not voluntarily bottle out was a round of seeing more of my gang in the sick bay. Setting up a table for an hour just to get a game where the only valid tactic is to bottle turn one isn't remotely ok for a game.

Not one of the attacker/defender scenarios produce games that are remotely fun, because the only valid tactic for the defenders is to bottle out immediately.

WfHLk2F.jpgETL_2014_Banner_V2_04_Primus_Inter_Paresgallery_29004_6198_3277.png
 
“What started out as a pleasant afternoon of drugs and surgery has not gone as planned.”

 

-Zoidberg

My Chaos stuff, Mansions of MadnessDescent 2ed, and home-made ZM board!


#6
Gorgoff

Gorgoff

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,395 posts
  • Location:Germany, Osnabrueck
  • Faction: IVth Legion
What they can't.
Page 20 Gang war. You can only bottle out voluntary if you habe ro test in the first place, which you don't if you haven't lost anybody.

But anyhow that is not the problem.
In my humble opinion your problem starts and ends with your table.
Obviously you play on a to small table with not enough fitting terrain.
It should not be possible for a Goliath (Goliath! Movement 4"!) to reach any place on the table in turn one.
The name 3D play is meant literally.
You should have towers and bridges and ladders and holes and stuff like that, which makes it impossible to go anywhere in turn one.
And by the way, I have already seen cool games of both szenarios for both players, but it happened always on bigger tables with sufficent terrain.

Edited by Gorgoff, 05 March 2018 - 04:09 PM.

Bring back Psycho Dad!
gallery_48988_10980_12646.png

#7
totgeboren

totgeboren

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,581 posts
  • Location:Umeå, Sweden
  • Faction: Word Bearers

Yes, as said, the defenders will always want to bottle out as soon as possible, which in many scenarios can happen turn 1 if you lose a single model, due to having so few models on the table.

 

How big a table do you think is enough? None of the ZM tables in the rulebook are even 3" by 3" , so a 3" by 3" table, with an added 8"-12" height in terrain should definitively be enough one would think.

 

How big tables do you think one should use?

 

*Late edit*

 

The issue is not table size, due to two reasons. First, as said above that all the ZM scenarios are played on much smaller tables than what my group has been using.

 

Secondly, take say something basic, like a Goliath Ganger with a stub cannon vs a Delaque Ganger with a lasgun. I will omit saves and injury dice, since they will be the same for both in 99% of the cases. This is just to highlight the issue.

Say they are shooting at each other with -1 to hit due to cover. The Goliath will put .22 wounds on the Delaque before saves. The Delaque will put .17 wounds on the Goliath before saves. So the Goliath is better at range. And if the gangers have some extra gear like a knife or sidearm, the points difference is minimal.

The Goliath ganger is in that case about 33% better at shooting.

 

Lets say we are getting within assault range. If the Goliath assaults the Delaque, he will put on average 0.666 wounds on him before saves, meaning he will only suffer on average 0.055 wounds back.

Let the Delaque do the same thing, since he is after all much worse at shooting so.

In assault, he will be putting down 0.333 wounds before saves (so only half as good as the Goliath in cc), and suffer a whooping 0.222 wounds in return, explaining why it's almost suicide to assault the Goliath too.

 

Also, take into account Gang Tactics cards. Even with random cards, I have seen Goliaths assault 10+D3" (Brutal Charge), 16"+D3" (Adrenaline surge) and even 24+D3" (Desperate Effort).

 

I mean, having Goliath Champs and Leaders with M8, S6 and T6 thundering around sometimes with over 20" assault range, while everyone else is both noticeably worse at range and totally outclassed in close combat means the Goliaths are not balanced.

 

It's simply not the tabletop layout that is the issue, since even on planet bowling ball, the Goliaths would be expected to sweep the floor with everyone else.  


Edited by totgeboren, 07 March 2018 - 01:48 PM.

  • Gorgoff likes this

WfHLk2F.jpgETL_2014_Banner_V2_04_Primus_Inter_Paresgallery_29004_6198_3277.png
 
“What started out as a pleasant afternoon of drugs and surgery has not gone as planned.”

 

-Zoidberg

My Chaos stuff, Mansions of MadnessDescent 2ed, and home-made ZM board!






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Necromunda game

1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users