New Fluff discussion

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Seeing as we have a fair bit of new fluff on our legion, I'm wondering what people's favorites and least liked parts are, and how it interacts with the backstory of your own warbands?
 

Whilst it's an excuse to not give us a non fleshy dread, the new fluff for for the TS get hellbrutes is quite evocative, and how recruitment in general is still happening.
Hvaing more infomation on the deamon engines, and how the Tson's became dragon slayers when arriving in the eye is quite nice.
Really not sure on how the legion is unified, especially with the exiles seeming wiped out/on the run now and how Magnus now seems to be controlling and screwing his sons over even more then ever now, my warband have always been Ahrimanites and exiles, so not sure where this leaves them, between Magnus and the Black legion it seems any exiles would have to leave the eye and head for the Mealstorm or try and carve out homes in realspace to survive.

Likewise how the legion seems to have unified in discarding Prosperine styles in favour of birds, birds and tentacles? Considering the legion;s whole thing has been hatred of mutation/desperatly trying to preserve all they once had, now loving mutation and adopting tzeentch/bird focused imagery seems a tad odd, as does how doing almost anything seems to be Phyric/costly and how  there is no such things as business deals with warpsmiths ect now, just backstabbing and theft.

[Kite Senet]

Honestly, I felt like there were some pretty major plot holes or inconsistencies present in the fluff; the omission of mentions of things like the original five Cults of the Thousand Sons in the description of the new nine cults, and the chronology of the Rubric *after* the siege on Terra which seems to contradict the chronology that The Crimson King was implying, makes me wonder if the fluff author was fully familiar with the Thousand Sons backstory...or if I've just misunderstood it all this time myself. The complete absence of the dragons in the extant fluff in particular, and suddenly *bam* it's so important they made it their insignia was confusing, as well as some of the chronology in the earlier pages regarding when, exactly, they discovered and arrived on Sortiarius (seemingly implying that it may have happened after the Siege on Terra rather than fleeing there immediately after the Burning of Prospero).

 

Even the motivations of the Thousand Sons seem oddly inconsistent with those surviving Thousand Sons depicted in the Ahriman trilogy, particularly Ahriman himself. I chalked it up to the fluff being centered around Magnus and his follower's perspective rather than those of the Exiles, but it seems like Ahriman retains a much more hopeful and ambitious perspective than the one he seems to have in the fluff.

 

But maybe I misunderstood the codex; I don't have mine on me at the moment.

 

As for my own warband, I consider it to be affiliated with the Exiles and Ahriman's schemes to amend the Rubric, rather than Magnus's forces, so I consider the (as I see it Magnus-centered) fluff somewhat irrelevant to my characters.

[The Yncarne]

I also wondered who wrote the background sections and how they came across their ideas and words. At least now I can use the new helbrute conception to explain why my warnand consorts with non-Ahrimanite bands.

 

I keep plugging away with my warband vision little changed since 3rd edition.

[Skerr]

I need to go back and reread the fluff section again as I read it Sat night before digging in the rules, (I had all of you for rules leaks and discussion so i focused on the fluff)

 

 

I indeed took from it that the Thousand Sons no longer fear the flesh change and actually embrace.  Perhaps 10,000 years will do that to you, lol.  I need to reread though they did seem to indicate that the 9 cults were Magnus bastardization of the original cults so they may no longer be in existence.

 

I also wondered about Ahriman 's loyalties though as of WoM, they seem aligned (in one sense of a big picture, i see both these guys planning to manipulate and screw the other over even if it is because both are paranoid that the other is planning to manipulate and screw the other one over.)

 

Maybe we will see Ahriman make another break from his loyalty to Big M if he gets close to getting the Ynarri knowledge to reverse the Rubric.

[Archaeinox]

I am quite pleased with how we are portrayed in the Codex. It's about time we had more than a paragraph of NEW stuff that wasn't copy/paste (prior to wrath of magnus)

[Kite Senet]

Looking over my codex now, I notice that (on the top of page 16) the book does indeed say the "once noble fellowships" of the Thousand Sons were replaced with the nine Cults hierarchy by Magnus's will; though it still seems odd to me, the book does at least explain that change.

 

On page 12 it implies the Thousand Sons joined the Siege on Terra before they had even claimed the Planet of the Sorcerers as their own, and only after that had the Rubric been cast; but A Thousand Sons and The Crimson King seems to have them cast by Magnus after Russ broke his back, directly to the Planet of the Sorcerers and *then* he convinces his Sons to join the Siege on Terra while Ahriman schemes his Rubric. Isn't this a pretty clear chronology discrepancy or am I missing something? (Timey-wimey warp shenanigans?)

[Raven1]

Overall I like it. Having the expanded story is great. I was bit confused too about the timeline, but with multiple authors doing multiple things its certain mistakes will be made.

 

As far as Ahriman and his exiles, i think his past treachery is being excused at the moment because of the greater need of the legion/Tzeentch's will. It just depends on how long it lasts.

[yergerjo]

My understanding was:

 

Burning of Prospero

Teleport to Planet of Sorcs

Magnus Broods and debates on what to do...visits his ero's, helps the Salamanders get home, etc

Luck is visits and fights Sanahket

Ahriman starts working on Rubric

Magnus goes nuts since he was "shattered" along with his back, Amon puts him back together (mostly)

Magnus decides to help Horus

Siege of Terra

Thousand Sons run home, the long hard way

Ahriman casts the Rubric, gets exiled

 

Battle of the Fang

 

Black Legion novels

 

Amon tries to kill Ahriman (Ahriman trilogy)

Meqnwhile

Ahriman chases Czeverac through time and space trying to get into the webway

Meanwhile

Ragnar series with Maddox

 

Wrath of Magnus

Fracture of Biel Tan

Magnus and Girlyman duke em on the Moon

 

....

NOW

[Kite Senet]

Ah; the summary is much appreciated. I suppose I had always assumed that the Rubric happened before the Siege on Terra, with Magnus realizing that there was no longer any possible fix for the Imperium situation after the Rubric and (quite literally) resigning himself to Fate; but that really wouldn't make sense, considering that would imply Ahriman himself wouldn't be present for the Siege and thus would have little reason to perceive himself a traitor, which seems to be the case based on his interactions with Astraeos in the Ahriman trilogy.

[Ishagu]

Why does Magnus decide to help Horus? I thought Ahriman read the mind of a space Wolf Rune priest during the Burning of Prospero and knew it was Horus that changed Russ' orders from arrest to annihilate?

[Kite Senet]

Why does Magnus decide to help Horus? I thought Ahriman read the mind of a space Wolf Rune priest during the Burning of Prospero and knew it was Horus that changed Russ' orders from arrest to annihilate?

He did. But Ahriman actually revealed to Wyrdmake the truth of Horus's treachery...and then cast Othere, rendered helpless by the sheer horror of the revelation, to the monstrosities in the warp to have his soul eaten, essentially ruining the Thousand Sons's chance of revelation and reconciliation with the Imperium.

 

I suspect Magnus was already quite enthralled to Tzeentch by the time of the Siege. His assistance in the Siege of Terra was more likely Tzeentch's idea than Magnus's.

[Khalan]

He helps Horus because when his soul is shattered by Russ into it's different aspects, and recombined in The Crimson King, the Good "Shard" was lost on Terra and never recovered, so he basically loses his sense of nobility and helping the Emp but keeps all the bad stuff. Apparently the shard is found by Malcador and used to imbue an artifact of some kind.

 

Following his near death at the hands of Leman Russ on Prospero, at least a part of Magnus was scattered into several "shards". These psychic phantoms have their own personality and ideals. They seemingly act independent of each other and what is recognized as the "primary" Magnus on the Planet of the Sorcerers. Known shards include:

• The shard of Prospero, destroyed by Jaghatai Khan. This shard urged the Khan to choose a side in the war and seemed neutral to both Horus and the Emperor.^[9]
• The shard of Kallista Eris, found in the urn of Kallista Eris' ashes carried by Lemuel Gaumon while imprisoned in Kamiti Sona.^[16a][16d]
• The shard of Aghoru, representing Magnus's warrior aspects, found on Aghoru^[16b]
• The shard of Kadmus, representing Magnus's quest for lost knowledge, found on Terra deep within Mount Cithaeron in the past^[16c]. This shard came to the aid of Salamanders First Captain Artellus Numeon aboard the Fire Ark and guided the vessel, which was carrying the remains of Vulkan, through the Ruinstorm and to Nocturne.^[11]
• The shard of Nikaea, representing Magnus's feelings of betrayal, found on Nikaea^[16d]
• The shard of Terra, representing Magnus's noble virtues, was kept by Malcador the Sigillite on Terra, and the reformed Magnus declared that they would aid Horus's assault on Terra to recover it.^[16d] Meanwhile this shard stalked the Imperial Dungeon and was eventually sealed into the body of Revuel Arvida by Malcador. The ritual did not go as planned and a new being emerged, neither Arvida or Magnus, known as Ianius.^[14]
• The shard of the Athenaeum of Kallimakus, representing manipulation, secrets, and change, which attached itself to the Athenaeum to plant the seed of a second Rubric in Ahriman's mind.^[17]
• The shard of Ahriman, which unbeknown to its host lived inside his mind palace.^[17]

[Khannis]

I like the fact that we have new fluff, but I think it's just too inconsistent, a mash of different ideas that is afraid to both deviate from the model range available AND at the same time goes against the spirit (if not the actual canon) of older, more thought-out fluff.

I think Magnus' daemonhood and madness is wholly expected with the soul-fragments business and all that, and I also understand that the part of the Legion that actually follows Magnus have embraced in varying degrees the "gifts" of Tzeentch. But to me this is much more bland and pedestrian than the actual Ahrimanite side, in which a fanatic, obsessive desire for conservation and restoration brings about the will of Tzeentch's change, while it's protagonists fight constantly the consequences of their own action, serving Chaos without (at least in their mind) surrendering to it.

We already have many, many stories of slavish devotion and madness, so the ones that add depth, complexity and contradiction to it, like the Ahriman or the Night Lords trilogy, to name a few, capture my interest much more, and inspire me much more to actually pursue the hobby. Thus it saddens me that such stories are mostly left out entirely of gameplay and are frequently nothing more than a footnote in the Codices.

As an example outside the Thousand Sons, take the Alpha Legion. By their (very good) gameplay you'd think they are a buch of raving-mad slaaneshi fanatics who appear from thin air among throngs of techno-virus monstrosities while cultists and great daemon-engines trudge along in support. NOTHING I have read of their fluff even suggests this type of approach to warfare, much less how such absolute turnabout happened after they decided to betray the Imperium at the behest of the Cabal.

[Skerr]

Overall I like it. Having the expanded story is great. I was bit confused too about the timeline, but with multiple authors doing multiple things its certain mistakes will be made.

 

As far as Ahriman and his exiles, i think his past treachery is being excused at the moment because of the greater need of the legion/Tzeentch's will. It just depends on how long it lasts.

Agreed.

If you rewatch that cool WoM video where we got our first glimpse of new unit artwork Magnus interrupts the horned weasily exalted sorcerer who calls Ahriman a traitor something like "you are all my sons, some loyal others wayward and treacherous though now all roads lead to Fenris..." thats all i remember so they reconciled at some point but I am sure Tzeentch will toy with them both some more... i mean, bad guys always flip on each other.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Interesting discussion. FYI, our psykers have been embracing mutation since the 3.0 Codex/Index Astartes days. IA specifically talked about them "wearing their mutations proudly" in contrast to the static Rubricae.

[Zodd1888]

Okay, 100% AoS Kairic Acolytes look like humans mutating into Tzaangors. They even have those funky feathers growing out of them. If they aren't part of the line I really think you could make an argument to use them as Tzaangors with blades prior to their complete mutation.

 

Do you guys think we'll get further mutations of Tzaangors? Maybe some kind of minor LoC, or a GW Giant Tzeentch Spawn. I'd be down for that.

[Archaeinox]

Regarding the mash up of fiction:

 

I think 40k is too bloated to have one thing be canon. There are too many inconsistencies. We have to use our Suspension of Disbelief and develop our own army's storyline using the inspiration from the collected works (ie: codex fluff)

 

Example: NO mutation and now exalted can be mutated. what? Hell, Ahriman can cast Boon of Mutation on himself. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Regarding the mash up of fiction:

 

I think 40k is too bloated to have one thing be canon. There are too many inconsistencies. We have to use our Suspension of Disbelief and develop our own army's storyline using the inspiration from the collected works (ie: codex fluff)

 

Example: NO mutation and now exalted can be mutated. what? Hell, Ahriman can cast Boon of Mutation on himself.

Easy game shorthand for how he does things like turning his skin to steel/stone, becoming living flame, etc in the books now that there aren't separate powers for that.

[Archaeinox]

Yeah it's called imagination work-around hehe, totally with ya there man.

[Skerr]

Okay, 100% AoS Kairic Acolytes look like humans mutating into Tzaangors. They even have those funky feathers growing out of them. If they aren't part of the line I really think you could make an argument to use them as Tzaangors with blades prior to their complete mutation.

 

Do you guys think we'll get further mutations of Tzaangors? Maybe some kind of minor LoC, or a GW Giant Tzeentch Spawn. I'd be down for that.

Ha, i kitted the one exalted sorcerer with the forward stepping attack position, pointed staff with feathered elbow, 4 beaked backpack and the mutated avian head.   I use him specifically to lead my Tzangoor horde with a sort of mutual affinity and ewas toying around with that leaving it a bit of a mystery. I planned on making a new DP and using a Tzangoor head.  I got inspired by one of the posters here that put a pick on the DP thread.

 

Update:  Khalan has a beautiful DP using a Deceiver Ctan body a Tzangoor head, wings and magical effect.  Certainly inspired me to use a Tzangoor head on a long neck for my next prince.  Not sure if I want to go Power Armor or Mini LOC.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Okay, 100% AoS Kairic Acolytes look like humans mutating into Tzaangors. They even have those funky feathers growing out of them. If they aren't part of the line I really think you could make an argument to use them as Tzaangors with blades prior to their complete mutation.

 

Just chop their heads off and replace them with Tzaangor heads. Good to go. Even same base size....and if you also play Cult of the Transient Form in AoS you can use them there too, since those guys can turn into Tzaangors mid-battle.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

Okay, 100% AoS Kairic Acolytes look like humans mutating into Tzaangors. They even have those funky feathers growing out of them. If they aren't part of the line I really think you could make an argument to use them as Tzaangors with blades prior to their complete mutation.

 

Do you guys think we'll get further mutations of Tzaangors? Maybe some kind of minor LoC, or a GW Giant Tzeentch Spawn. I'd be down for that.

Ha, i kitted the one exalted sorcerer with the forward stepping attack position, pointed staff with feathered elbow, 4 beaked backpack and the mutated avian head. I use him specifically to lead my Tzangoor horde with a sort of mutual affinity and ewas toying around with that leaving it a bit of a mystery. I planned on making a new DP and using a Tzangoor head. I got inspired by one of the posters her that put a pick on the DP thread.

 

Update: Khalan has a beautiful DP using a Deceiver Ctan body a Tzangoor head, wings and magical effect. Certainly inspired me to use a Tzangoor head on a long neck for my next prince. Not sure if I want to go Power Armor or Mini LOC.

I would suggest slapping horns on the old, hooded Champion of Tzeentch and throwing him on a disk. Makes a great Shaman. So does the Magister or Fatemaster.

 

Ogroid Thaumaturge with some added feathery wings would be awesome. Might be able to tinker with his head using spare Lord of Change bits.

[sneakybamsen]

Being a new TS player (only have like a box of rubrics, datacards and the codex), I have no major hurdles with regards to fluff before and after codex. That said, I am working my way though the HH saga, and fluffwise, the sons are cooler than even the Dark Angels (yup, I guess I am sort of a DA fanboy). I like and care about fluff, but unlike some of you, I haven't been collecting/playing TS for 10+ years. Therefore I find it cool that tzeentch demons are an option in the codex without going for codex demons. You can, if you want, build a straight demonic force with Magnus, and keep it Thousand Sons ruleswise. Is it fluffwise appropriate? I guess not, but the sons have far more options now than ever, and I think that is what was greatly needed to make the army viable (options are always good to have for variation and possible strength).

The army I'm planning does have most options for most slots, even though I to some extend find the tzaangors a bit too fantasy-like for 40k. The models are cool enough, and I guess they can be argued for fluffwise, it still feels funny to me. I might get some horrors (pink ones, probably not gonna bother with blues and brims as you have to pay for them in matched play even if you do not get to use them), flamers and screamers, just to provide more options for building lists that aren't top tier effective, but can provide some punch and variation. Previously a brigade required spamming for TS. Now there's at least 3 options in every category (except fliers and transports), so fast attack in a brigade no longer needs to be 3 spawn units for instance. For those reasons I quite like the codex. All I gotta do now is decide on the paint scheme I want for my sons. Might go for the Crystalline Harbingers look. Might also just go TS blue. Not sure.

 

Regards

[Kite Senet]

I don't really see any contradiction with a Thousand Sons + Daemons mixed force; I'll try not to spoil anything, but the Thousand Sons have been consorting with Daemons for a *very* long time.

[Paladin777]

Back in third edition are used to run a unit of nine flamers and a unit of five screamers. The screamers were actually pretty good light character snipers, And the flamers destroyed chaff and medium infantry alike. Unfortunately, I got rid of them when the demons became their own book and before allies were thing.