New Fluff discussion

[Gree]

Likewise how the legion seems to have unified in discarding Prosperine styles in favour of birds, birds and tentacles? Considering the legion;s whole thing has been hatred of mutation/desperatly trying to preserve all they once had, now loving mutation and adopting tzeentch/bird focused imagery seems a tad odd, as does how doing almost anything seems to be Phyric/costly and how  there is no such things as business deals with warpsmiths ect now, just backstabbing and theft.

The Heresy-era Thousand Sons were anti-mutation. That's not the same as the 40k era Thousand Sons who spent ten thousand years in the service of a Chaos God. This is not new lore.

 

"The Rubric ended that forever for the battle brothers of the Thousand Sons, but the sorcerers who command those armoured shells still carry the gene-seed of their Daemon Prince, and wear their grotesque mutations proudly as tokens of their mercurial patron's favour."-Index Astartes: Thousand Sons.

 

I'm not really sure why people keep associating the early Thousand Sons with the full-fledged Chaos Legion of ten millennia later. They're a legion dedicated to Tzeentch after all.

 

As a side note, the bird skulls motif is also a Prosperine tradition according to the new book.

 

 

I indeed took from it that the Thousand Sons no longer fear the flesh change and actually embrace.  Perhaps 10,000 years will do that to you, lol.  I need to reread though they did seem to indicate that the 9 cults were Magnus bastardization of the original cults so they may no longer be in existence.

 

One of my issues is how redundant most of the Cults are.

 

For example, we have a Cult of Manipulation, the Cult of Scheming, the Cult of Duplicity. All of those are synonyms for the same thing. Their descriptions even note how they basically do the same thing.

 

It seems to me that the author just wanted to make nine cults to echo Tzeentch's number and he padded out the Cults with groups that do the same thing.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

Likewise how the legion seems to have unified in discarding Prosperine styles in favour of birds, birds and tentacles? Considering the legion;s whole thing has been hatred of mutation/desperatly trying to preserve all they once had, now loving mutation and adopting tzeentch/bird focused imagery seems a tad odd, as does how doing almost anything seems to be Phyric/costly and how  there is no such things as business deals with warpsmiths ect now, just backstabbing and theft.

The Heresy-era Thousand Sons were anti-mutation. That's not the same as the 40k era Thousand Sons who spent ten thousand years in the service of a Chaos God. This is not new lore.

 

"The Rubric ended that forever for the battle brothers of the Thousand Sons, but the sorcerers who command those armoured shells still carry the gene-seed of their Daemon Prince, and wear their grotesque mutations proudly as tokens of their mercurial patron's favour."-Index Astartes: Thousand Sons.

 

I'm not really sure why people keep associating the early Thousand Sons with the full-fledged Chaos Legion of ten millennia later. They're a legion dedicated to Tzeentch after all.

 

As a side note, the bird skulls motif is also a Prosperine tradition according to the new book.

 

 

I indeed took from it that the Thousand Sons no longer fear the flesh change and actually embrace.  Perhaps 10,000 years will do that to you, lol.  I need to reread though they did seem to indicate that the 9 cults were Magnus bastardization of the original cults so they may no longer be in existence.

 

One of my issues is how redundant most of the Cults are.

 

For example, we have a Cult of Manipulation, the Cult of Scheming, the Cult of Duplicity. All of those are synonyms for the same thing. Their descriptions even note how they basically do the same thing.

 

It seems to me that the author just wanted to make nine cults to echo Tzeentch's number and he padded out the Cults with groups that do the same thing.

 

Or maybe (BIG maybe) the overlap in their purviews was intended by Tzeentch to give them something to fight over and turn them against each other....including arguing over the semantics of how the words are similar, how they are different, what they mean in "Original Prosperine" or "Reformed Late-Crusade Imperial Gothic." I imagine their "King James vs. Dead Sea Scrolls" debates get bloody.

 

Just. As. Planned. :)

[Skerr]

Lol, i did wonder the same thing that a lot of the cults had overlap of some kind.

 

Being a geek i looked up each word on dictionary.com and there all subtle differences.

 

Duplicity: 1. Deceitful in speech or conduct as by acting or speaking in two different ways to various people about the same subject, double dealing.

2. An act or instance of such deceitfulness.

3. The act or fact of 2 or more offences in one charge.

4. The state or quality of having 2 qualities or parts.

 

Manipulation: the act of maniplulating, root word manipulate.

1. To manage or influence skillfully

2. To handle, manage or use with skill

3. To adapt or change to suit ones purpose

4. To examine or treat with skillful use of hands

 

Scheming: given to making plans especially sly or crafty ones.

 

I did not put this to be a smarty pants, cuz i agree they are basically the same thing, lol.

 

Members of each cult would likely argue endlessly on how they are different and maybe the writers looked up the definitions too.

 

I can split hairs but the lesson here is do not trust any of them, lol.

[Triszin]

- Ashes of Prospero

 

Isakaar Orr's soul was trapped in the crystalline labyrinth for hte past 10k years.

 

When the great rift occured it cracked a small portion of the labyrinth, and fractured his soul, part of it found was now outside of the gate system.

 

When NJAL the rune lord was sleeping he was drawn to prospero where that fragment of Isakaar Orr injected itself into Njals psyche,

 

Njal and Isakaar have converstations throughout the book and come to some realizations.

 

- Njal through isakaar's information, and being told by isakaar, that Horus played both magnus and the wolf king, that Russ's orders didnt come from the emperor but from Horus.

- Njal feels sorrow for this

- Isakaar at first refused to beleive just how far Magnus had fallen until he encountered him, he now admits Magnus in 40k is a traitor and must be stopped

 

When Njal finds Isakaars body he reserrects isakaar, with knowledge from Fenris runelords and Isakaar fragment in his head

 

Isakaar assists the 13th co escape the labyrith

 

- Storm birds, 30k era tanks and equipment, a 30k techmarine/iron priest, bulveye the old wolf, the old wolves and 13th co escape

 

When Isakaar and other loyalist Tsons attempt to leave most of the Tsons turn to ashes and the wolves destroy there armors. because they would come back as traitors

 

Isakaar finds out about the rubicrae and decides not to leave the labyrinth until he can find a way to:

 

- Stop the rubicrae

- Prevent/fight magnus from using the Crystalline labyrinth from becoming a Nexus for warp creatures to go through to enter realspace with no big issues

- Find any other loyal Tsons in the maze and form a force to fight magnus, make an army

 

 

Lukas the trickster breaks into a library and steals a page from the tzeentch librarians and tricks magnus into thinking its the spell he needed

- lukas threatens to killhimself with the page locking it in stasis for a thousand years if magnus didnt free the rest of the space wolves stuck int he labyrinth

- magnus frees the rest and they all get out of hte portal system.

- magnus attempts to control lukas body but lukas lights the page on fire and runs away

- it was a blank scroll/spell about doing some super basic stuff

 

Magnus plans to turn the Labrinyth into a nexus/Gate system to transfer the Deamonic hordes into realspace, if done it will essentially allow magnus to have an infinite army

 

 

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I have a feeling they are prepping for Isakaar Orr to become a Loyalist Tson in 40k leading a new loyal Tson faction. and that the space wolves, Njal/Grimnar would go to bat for Isakaar and defend him from being purged

[Zodd1888]

Just saying that while I think the concept is very cool, I will commit to Exterminatus on Nottingham if the Loyalist get 1KS Power Armour troops as new models.

 

That said, I'd be interested in seeing a model line (like 1KS) that all faction specific kits could be both Loyalist or Heretic. I mean DA are already there, IMO.

[Re'Koleq't]

I really hate Lukas (aka Loki) the Trickster. So lazy from GW to add yet another hero to the already saturated Wolves lineup (don't get me started on Arjac 'Lysander' Rockfist lol).

 

Tricking Magnus (who should be able to read the future or intuit that Lukas is full of crap) just compounds the travesty.

 

Just because he's called 'Trickster' doesn't mean he can so easily outwit a primarch - THE primarch of schemes.

 

Oh well. Getting off my soap box now. Sorry, rant over lol!

[Archaeinox]

As far as I'm concerned the fluff is whatever the heck I want it to be.

 

Black Library and the Codexes can't coordinate with each other. The universe is too big. Far too big. Example: Athenaeum of Kallimakus in Codex vs. in Ahriman trilogy.

 

So, keeping the amount of inconsistencies and contradictions in mind, don't put too much stock in the fiction. Just pick a way and roll with it

[Skaorn]

I'm not exactly liking what I'm hearing. At least in 3rd & 4th it always seemed like Ahriman knew exactly what would happen with the rubric and purposely screwed over Magnus. I always liked the idea of him dancing around, giving Magnus the double fingers as he tried to get to the BL. Then Typhous showed up so I guess they couldn't have two traitor traitors. Still I liked that Ahriman was the big mover and shaker instead of a Primarch but now Magnus is back...

[Scammel]

I'm not exactly liking what I'm hearing. At least in 3rd & 4th it always seemed like Ahriman knew exactly what would happen with the rubric and purposely screwed over Magnus. I always liked the idea of him dancing around, giving Magnus the double fingers as he tried to get to the BL. Then Typhous showed up so I guess they couldn't have two traitor traitors. Still I liked that Ahriman was the big mover and shaker instead of a Primarch but now Magnus is back...

To be fair, Ahriman is still the more interesting of the two characters. Magnus was always so arrogant and reliant on his powers that he lacked the natural prescience and judgement that Ahriman constantly cultivated, and that only seems magnified now. Ahriman is always two steps ahead while Magnus borderline doesn't seem to bother.

[Paladin777]

Ahriman has plots and schemes for a purpose. Magnus on the other hand, is now wholly enthralled by tzeentch who schemes for the sake of scheming and thereby I would make sense for Magnus to care less. In addition, Magnus is now functionally immortal as he can’t really be killed, Ahriman might not be able to die or age, but I’m sure he could still be killed which means for him stakes will pretty much always be higher.

[Xenith]

I'm not exactly liking what I'm hearing. At least in 3rd & 4th it always seemed like Ahriman knew exactly what would happen with the rubric and purposely screwed over Magnus.

 

I don't know where you got that from, the Rubric was always described as a massive success, and a catastrophic failure. Ahriman had eliminated mutation from the Legion, but at the cost of their physical forms.

 

Ahriman, in the true hubris of the Sons, thought he could control the power of the warp, but in the end made a monkey-paw bargain. He cast a spell that would stop the legion from mutating forever, but didn't think about the ways in which that could happen, or the capriciousness of the gods. 

 

Ahriman didn't screw over Magnus, but took action because Magnus was doing nothing but sitting in introspection in his tower. 

 

The tale of the Thousand Sons is one of "I know best".

[Re'Koleq't]

I won't go into details because spoilers, but Ahriman was betrayed with an intentional flaw in the Rubric.

[PiñaColada]

Okay, so slightly off topic here but still fluff. I'm thinking of painting up my new Thousand Sons army in the paint scheme of Sect of the Red Echo but I'm wondering how you guys interpret this.

From the codex: "Though their leaders were once known for their forbearance, the Sect of the Red Echo has carved a gruesome warpath since falling to Tzeentch, with haunting screams following wherever they go. Some amongst the Cult of Time interpret these as the dying cries of their victims, others as the mad harmonies of the warp itself"

 

So does this mean that they are followed by sounds that only they can hear or that everyone can hear? Odd question, I know..

[The Yncarne]

I read it as the victims are screaming when the sect shows up and does their thing. It is poorly worded given in the game there could literally be voices only the cult hears.

[Zodd1888]

I think Ghasts as Spawn would represent a physical manifestation of the above.

[Kite Senet]

The fact that the Cult of Time is even interested implies to me that there's some timey-wimey weirdness going on; so I'd suspect it's something that's audible when in their presence, and not just a handful of sorcerers who are hearing things while their Rubrics eternally ponder "if a scream echos to a formation of soulless husks, does it make a sound?"

[PiñaColada]

The fact that the Cult of Time is even interested implies to me that there's some timey-wimey weirdness going on; so I'd suspect it's something that's audible when in their presence, and not just a handful of sorcerers who are hearing things while their Rubrics eternally ponder "if a scream echos to a formation of soulless husks, does it make a sound?"

This makes sense, and also doubles as a cool backstory. I kind of want my guys to have been stuck in the warp for a while anyways so the whole weird temporal aspect fits.

[Lords of Preyspire]

The fact that the Cult of Time is even interested implies to me that there's some timey-wimey weirdness going on; so I'd suspect it's something that's audible when in their presence, and not just a handful of sorcerers who are hearing things while their Rubrics eternally ponder "if a scream echos to a formation of soulless husks, does it make a sound?"

Was the sorcerer from fatespinner a thousand son?

[bozo69pd]

Thank you Yergerjo and Khazan for putting that time table together and the list of major Psychic Shards. What book is that Kadmus shard from?

 

This is a great discussion, a lot of things that I agree/disagree with but all seem plausible. I think the main thing to note is to remember GW is doing us a FAVOR but giving our legion more storyline. Obviously it is tricky when there is decades of lore in place, so you have to give them some leeway and wiggle room to squeeze a new side story in the timeline without jumping all over them like some Red Shirted Nerd.

[Triszin]

on ashes of Prospero:

 

Lukas didn't "trick" Magnus.

 

Lukas Grabbed a random scroll from the Blue tzeentch librarians, and magnus was made aware of the intruder and captured him.

 

Magnus assumed the scroll that lukas grabbed was the scroll he sent one of the librarians to locate, so Lukas just played off of it.

 

Additionally, magnus looked into the future, and saw that when he killed lukas, Lukas's stasis heart activated at trapped that scroll for 1000 years. so magnus didn't kill Lukas instead started to force control of lukas body, so Lukas threw the scroll near a fire and ran away.

 

It wasn't the scroll magnus needed, and magnus even states that, and lukas states he never said it was.

 

 

on the NExus and why its important.

 

It acts as a Tunnel, it is between the warp and realspace and is made of both.

what it does is allow things to keep much more of its power when they pass through it, so when magnus materializes in realspace he is hindered as most of his power is still inthe warp, same for greater deamons.

 

but if magnus is succesful in using the nexus, Magnus and deamons that pass through will be exponentially more powerful as they don't need to brute force power into realspace, they can just go through the nexus. (so imagine deamon primarchs 3-5x their current stats, same with deamons in general).

 

On Issakaar Orr, he stays behind, he is now closing as many nexus gate entrances as possible and fiddling with the controls. (the nexus is so particular that it took hundreds of years to make each gate, due to how much tuning each gate needs. every time a gate is used it must be re-tuned).

 

Njal says Issakkar can leave the nexus, implying he (njal) and the wolves would make sure that issaakar is allowed in the imperium.

 

Issakaar says he he doesnt belong in 40k atm, that he needs to try any and all means to prevent magnus from using the nexus, and save as many 30k loyal Tsons as possible. Then issakaar shuts off the gates to Tizca.

 

Then Njal orders the WOlf ships to melta bomb Tizca again and try to wipe out as many of the gate entrances as possible

 

 

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tin foil hat fun ideas

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I could see Njal and the wolves finding some way to repay Issakaar, Issakaar saved the 13th company and returned them to the wolves, so I could see the wolves trying to find some way to end the "all is dust" curse so Issakaar and the loyal Tsons may leave the nexus in force and join the imperium.

[Sonoftherubric21]

I would love seeing that come to fruition.  A loyalist T-sons force? I would have an excuse to use my 30k Thousand Sons again! :p 

[Re'Koleq't]

NO. The Imperium getting access to our psykers, that would be lame! They already got ALL the toys. No trying to get your hands on ours.

Already bad enough that they get loyalist primarchs again. Sleepy heads waking up just as ours finally get their  together!

Chaos uniqueness is shrinking.

Next up - Imperial daemons...

[Ishagu]

Loyalist TSons would be awesome. Imagine a large force or Rubrics being revived by Yvraine and re-joining the Imperium after pledging to Guilliman.

[Panzer]

Next up - Imperial daemons...

You mean Legion of the Damned, the Sanguinor etc? ^^

[Skerr]

While I agree from a player perspective about wanting to keep the 1k sons in chaos from a lore perspective its awesome, seems a natural progeession and practically writes itself. The model line would likely do very well.

 

But i get you...