Centurions: Strike from the Shadows Inquiry

[Aothaine]

Hey everyone!

 

So I have loved the Centurion models since I first saw them. So I'm trying to find a way that I can field these behemoths. I'm still working on most of the loadouts, but I am leaning heavily toward the following build for my Centurion Devastators.

 

Centurion Devastator

- Grav Cannon with Grav Amp x2

- Hurricane Bolters

 

These bad boys push out 8 S5 -3 1(d3 vs 3+ sv) shots as well as 6(12) bolter shots each.

 

The consensus is that they need a delivery system and I was wondering if Strike from the Shadows would be the best way to drop two units of five of each of these right into rapid fire range. Something that does concern me though is that this is done before the first turn begins. Do it happen prior to knowing who has the first turn? If so that could put me at a severe disadvantage as a list like this will require that I have first turn in order to attempt to keep them alive.

 

If I don't have first turn would it be safer to deploy them in cover around 15" away? That way they can move 4" on their turn and be within rapid fire range with the hurricane bolters?

 

Do you think that their 2+ save will be enough to keep them alive if I don't get first turn?

 

I am not sure on points yet but if I can somehow fit in two Apothecaries should I invest in a drop pod and drop all my HQ in with them? Librarian, Captain, Apothecaries x2? Or should I just use my HQ to support my line troops in the back?

 

Appreciate any and all assistance in this matter.

 

Edit: Can Primaris marines fit in Centurion Armor? For example if I wanted to go ahead with this and decided to go with Rift Stalkers as my chapter. Would adding Centurions be okay fluff wise?

Edited February 7, 2018 by Aothaine

[Claws and Effect]

Strike From The Shadows happens after you know who has first turn. However, there is no consensus on whether seize the initiative happens before or after Strike From The Shadows.

 

Technically Primaris shouldn't be able to use Centurion suits, but I doubt anyone will give you any grief if you want to use them. Aggressors would be fluffier.

 

I wouldn't worry about placing them 15" away. If you don't get first turn anything you want to shoot will be able to move far enough to get rid of the -1 to hit.

 

The biggest problem with Centurions is their cost. A unit of 3 will cost you over 300 points. For the same cost you could take THREE Aggressor squads.

 

Your 2 units of 5? That's going to cost 1180 points. That's a LOT of points to wrap up in 2 units that aren't that hard to kill. Do you really want over half your points sunk into 2 units? If not, you may want to consider rethinking the idea. If I were to use them I wouldn't take more than a single unit of 3.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Claws and Effect

[Race Bannon]

^ = Great advice ^_^

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Hey everyone!

 

So I have loved the Centurion models since I first saw them. So I'm trying to find a way that I can field these behemoths. I'm still working on most of the loadouts, but I am leaning heavily toward the following build for my Centurion Devastators.

 

Centurion Devastator

- Grav Cannon with Grav Amp x2

- Hurricane Bolters

 

These bad boys push out 8 S5 -3 1(d3 vs 3+ sv) shots as well as 6(12) bolter shots each.

 

The consensus is that they need a delivery system and I was wondering if Strike from the Shadows would be the best way to drop two units of five of each of these right into rapid fire range. Something that does concern me though is that this is done before the first turn begins. Do it happen prior to knowing who has the first turn? If so that could put me at a severe disadvantage as a list like this will require that I have first turn in order to attempt to keep them alive.

 

If I don't have first turn would it be safer to deploy them in cover around 15" away? That way they can move 4" on their turn and be within rapid fire range with the hurricane bolters?

 

Do you think that their 2+ save will be enough to keep them alive if I don't get first turn?

 

I am not sure on points yet but if I can somehow fit in two Apothecaries should I invest in a drop pod and drop all my HQ in with them? Librarian, Captain, Apothecaries x2? Or should I just use my HQ to support my line troops in the back?

 

Appreciate any and all assistance in this matter.

 

Edit: Can Primaris marines fit in Centurion Armor? For example if I wanted to go ahead with this and decided to go with Rift Stalkers as my chapter. Would adding Centurions be okay fluff wise?

If you dont get first turn then those Centurions will never fire a shot other than possibly overwatch.  They will attract tons of enemy firepower and die horribly.  

 

Stuff that easily kills Centurions...

Lascannons

Plasma

Smite

Close Combat

Melta

Eldar (all flavors)

Battle Cannons

Nids

 

 

 

Need Dakka?  Do what C&E says... Aggressors.  Or do what I say, Scout Bikers.  Those are both MUCH cheaper, require little or no support, and much much faster.  

 

Centurions are probably more than 50% overcosted.  Oblits are cheaper, have more firepower, have better durability(5+ invuln) and cost 195 points.    

Edited February 8, 2018 by SanguinaryGuardsman

[Aothaine]

Yeah I hear you guys completely. I just really love the look of the models. 

 

The aggressors only have 2 wounds, six shots at S4 AP0 D1, a 3+ save 18" range. Sure they are cheaper but Centurions out-class them easily imho. 

 

 

Aggressor - 41pts per model

Auto Boltstorm Gauntlet

Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

 

Centurion Devastator - 146pts per model

Hurricane Bolter

Grav-cannon and Grav-amp x2

 

Aggressor x3 (123pts)  vs. Centurion Devastator

Wounds: 6                |   Wounds: 3

S4AP0D1: 18+D6    |   S4AP0D1: 12

NULL                       |  S5AP-3D1(d3): 4

Save: 3+                  | Save 2+

Move:  5"                 | Move: 4"

 

So at this point I would say that the Centurion does win out mostly. However there are some problems. It is one centurion vs 3 aggressors so you have 6 wounds which is nice. The centurion has a better change at shoot down monster and vehicles as the aggressors need to assault to really take out the vehicles. Bot are equally good at taking out chaff. 

 

It seems if you need survivability then you want to go with aggressors and pick up the anti-monster/tank somewhere else. But it also depends if the Centurions are going first turn or not. Eight of them in rapid fire range on first turn are going to wreck a LOT of things. You then have your back line filled with Intecessors A Primy Cappy and Primy Libby. Though it might be better just to drop one unit of six of these bad boys on the table with a primaris Apothecary baby sitting them and give them lascannons. However, by doing this they lose a lot versatility. I should proxy some and do some testing between the two.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that if I end up going with Rift Stalkers they are Primaris Only. Being Primaris only means they would most likely do not have access to the Centurions which is a shame. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Aothaine

[MajorNese]

You miscalculated the grav-cannons. Each centurion only has one cannon + amp, just like last edition. One arm is the cannon, one is the amp. Means just 4 shots per model, which you could get a lot cheaper on other units.

 

I've tried to make them work too, but they are just too expensive, no matter the loadout. Only faced them once in this edition, wiped out a squad of AT centurions by charging them with a thunder hammer captain. Never ever has he made his points back quicker, killing all 3 on the charge...

Edited February 8, 2018 by MajorNese

[Claws and Effect]

You're selling the Aggressors short. If they don't move they can fire twice, including on Overwatch.

 

They can also fire both their boltstorm gauntlets and fragstorm launchers, which translates to 7-12 shots each.

 

If you take full squads of 6 and they don't move they will fire a MINIMUM of 84 bolter shots, with a max of 144.

 

And 6 man squads are 222 points. More than 100 points cheaper than 3 Centurions.

 

For 70 points LESS than 2 5-man Centurion squads, you can get 5 6-man Aggressor squads. That's a minimum of 420 bolter shots per turn if they hold still. And since they have assault weapons and aren't penalized for advancing you still get 210 bolter shots with a 6-12" move.

 

Oh, and the max for all 5 squads is 720 bolter shots if they don't move.

 

Still think they are outclassed? They have more dakka than a Guard Brigade.

 

I'm not going to try and influence your opinion on the appearance of Centurions, but the fact remains that they are the single most overcosted unit in the entire codex. By a wide margin. My Fire Raptor with lascannons and autocannons is 4 points cheaper than 3 Centurions with grav cannons. And it puts out 10 S6 2D shots, 8 S7 2D shots, and 4 S9 D6D shots.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Claws and Effect

[Race Bannon]

Man, if you love the Centurions, then go for it ^_^

 

Having said that, unless you have already purchased the models, then I would recommend playing a few games with proxies for them and Agressors. When you find the unit that fits for you is when money should be exchanged.

 

For my part, I tried this in 7th for Cents and fell in love with them too.

[NatBrannigan]

This is all awful news! I was looking at centurions in the codex and my eyebrow raised when I worked out the cost. Popped on here for an explanation of why the unit is worth the cost and founf the opposite. I'm in a similar boat starting a small Primaris only force but wanted some long ranged anti-tank. I really like the Centurion models and they don't look out of place net to Primaris at all. But for that price!? I just don't understand it at all. Each centurion costs more than a Leman Russ Battle Tank if I take Lascannons, which was the plan.

 

Now I don't mind using models I love with sub-par rules (been a Guard player for 5 editions...) but this is a bit much.

 

Guess I'll stick some Lascannons on the Repulsor instead :(

[Aothaine]

You miscalculated the grav-cannons. Each centurion only has one cannon + amp, just like last edition. One arm is the cannon, one is the amp. Means just 4 shots per model, which you could get a lot cheaper on other units.

 

I've tried to make them work too, but they are just too expensive, no matter the loadout. Only faced them once in this edition, wiped out a squad of AT centurions by charging them with a thunder hammer captain. Never ever has he made his points back quicker, killing all 3 on the charge...

 

OMG... ohhh but that means they are 28 points cheaper than I thought... I'll have look into this some more when I get home.

 

 

You're selling the Aggressors short. If they don't move they can fire twice, including on Overwatch.

 

They can also fire both their boltstorm gauntlets and fragstorm launchers, which translates to 7-12 shots each.

 

If you take full squads of 6 and they don't move they will fire a MINIMUM of 84 bolter shots, with a max of 144.

 

And 6 man squads are 222 points. More than 100 points cheaper than 3 Centurions.

 

For 70 points LESS than 2 5-man Centurion squads, you can get 5 6-man Aggressor squads. That's a minimum of 420 bolter shots per turn if they hold still. And since they have assault weapons and aren't penalized for advancing you still get 210 bolter shots with a 6-12" move.

 

Oh, and the max for all 5 squads is 720 bolter shots if they don't move.

 

Still think they are outclassed? They have more dakka than a Guard Brigade.

 

I'm not going to try and influence your opinion on the appearance of Centurions, but the fact remains that they are the single most overcosted unit in the entire codex. By a wide margin. My Fire Raptor with lascannons and autocannons is 4 points cheaper than 3 Centurions with grav cannons. And it puts out 10 S6 2D shots, 8 S7 2D shots, and 4 S9 D6D shots.

 

Fair enough. Man I was not understanding Aggressors at all. This is very frustrating. I love the Centurion models but man they are significantly worse it seems. This is bad news indeed.

 

 

This is all awful news! I was looking at centurions in the codex and my eyebrow raised when I worked out the cost. Popped on here for an explanation of why the unit is worth the cost and founf the opposite. I'm in a similar boat starting a small Primaris only force but wanted some long ranged anti-tank. I really like the Centurion models and they don't look out of place net to Primaris at all. But for that price!? I just don't understand it at all. Each centurion costs more than a Leman Russ Battle Tank if I take Lascannons, which was the plan.

 

Now I don't mind using models I love with sub-par rules (been a Guard player for 5 editions...) but this is a bit much.

 

Guess I'll stick some Lascannons on the Repulsor instead

 

Well using them as an pure anti-tank role isn't too bad. It is still bad though. But a unit of three with Two Lascannons sitting on the back line with a captain and apothecary nearby might not be too bad. Though there are most likely better options.

 

Gonna think on this a bit more and I'll be back with some more thoughts on this.

[Biscuittzz]

For 70 points LESS than 2 5-man Centurion squads, you can get 5 6-man Aggressor squads. That's a minimum of 420 bolter shots per turn if they hold still. And since they have assault weapons and aren't penalized for advancing you still get 210 bolter shots with a 6-12" move.

 

Oh, and the max for all 5 squads is 720 bolter shots if they don't move.

 

 

Interesting...... .

 

Now, do I have enough money for 10 Aggressor Squads or 720 dice? 

[Aothaine]

 

For 70 points LESS than 2 5-man Centurion squads, you can get 5 6-man Aggressor squads. That's a minimum of 420 bolter shots per turn if they hold still. And since they have assault weapons and aren't penalized for advancing you still get 210 bolter shots with a 6-12" move.

 

Oh, and the max for all 5 squads is 720 bolter shots if they don't move.

 

 

Interesting...... .

 

Now, do I have enough money for 10 Aggressor Squads or 720 dice? 

 

 

I'm a huge fan of the humble bolter. I am surprised I missed this with the Aggressors. But keep in mind they are 222 points with this load out for a squad of 6 guys. So if you had 10 squads that would be 2220 points. Going for six squad in a spearhead might be a better option. 1,332 points and then you have enough points for 1-2 HQ and 3 Troops. 

 

The problem with taking so many of these guys is that all the weapons do D1 with no ap. The Centurions, while way worse with Grav than I thought, have the potential to do D3 damage. I've thought about it some and I think they are best left as trophy pieces unless you are just playing a friendly game. Also, they are most likely better off using lascannons even though that load out limits their use. Though the heavy bolter and missile pods might not be bad. At least they will be able to fire all weapons at 36" then. Still the cost is an issue that needs to be of concern. 

 

The main reason for me considering Rift Stalkers is their ability to move the Centurions up the line into double tap range on first turn. I also love the all white color scheme. But if I'm going to build all Primaris and focus on Aggressors which do not want to move so they can double tap then it would be better to go with Dark Angels. As Dark Angels that do not move get to reroll all 1s and can only ever lose 1 model to morale. They then also get to use their strat that makes plasma +1D.

 

Gonna need to think about this some more. I really like the Centurion models... I might have to just deal with them being on the shelf until the next Chapter Approved and think about how to implement them into games at a later date.

 

Edit: Please don't get me wrong. I'm kind of bouncing around right now. Just trying to figure out how to use models I like the look of. It can be difficult.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Aothaine

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

If you are going to do Centurions do it them right.  

 

Raven Guard not Raptors. 

Lascannons

In cover in your deployment zone.

Next to the Banner of the Emperor Ascendant.

Next to a captain or shrike and a Lieutenant.  

 

Anything else is destined to end badly.  The above setup will get a few shots if you go second.  Make em count.

[Aothaine]

If you are going to do Centurions do it them right.  

 

Raven Guard not Raptors. 

Lascannons

In cover in your deployment zone.

Next to the Banner of the Emperor Ascendant.

Next to a captain or shrike and a Lieutenant.  

 

Anything else is destined to end badly.  The above setup will get a few shots if you go second.  Make em count.

 

Yeah I was planning on making them with Rift Stalkers. Love the all White scheme with the ability to use the strike from shadows strat. But only time will tell. I'm slowly getting dissuaded from using the Centurions and might just end up buying them for display rather than play. Which is really sad. :/

[Oxydo]

If you are going to do Centurions do it them right.  

 

Raven Guard not Raptors. 

Lascannons

In cover in your deployment zone.

Next to the Banner of the Emperor Ascendant.

Next to a captain or shrike and a Lieutenant.  

 

Anything else is destined to end badly.  The above setup will get a few shots if you go second.  Make em count.

You realise that Raptors have the same chapter tactics as Raven Guard and can use the Strike from the Shadows strategem?

Lias gives full rerolls on misses and +1 in move for them as well.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

If you are going to do Centurions do it them right.  

 

Raven Guard not Raptors. 

Lascannons

In cover in your deployment zone.

Next to the Banner of the Emperor Ascendant.

Next to a captain or shrike and a Lieutenant.  

 

Anything else is destined to end badly.  The above setup will get a few shots if you go second.  Make em count.

You realise that Raptors have the same chapter tactics as Raven Guard and can use the Strike from the Shadows strategem?

Lias gives full rerolls on misses and +1 in move for them as well.

 

I just realized it now.  Still, Raven Guard are cooler, use Raven Guard.  

[Aothaine]

 

 

If you are going to do Centurions do it them right.  

 

Raven Guard not Raptors. 

Lascannons

In cover in your deployment zone.

Next to the Banner of the Emperor Ascendant.

Next to a captain or shrike and a Lieutenant.  

 

Anything else is destined to end badly.  The above setup will get a few shots if you go second.  Make em count.

You realise that Raptors have the same chapter tactics as Raven Guard and can use the Strike from the Shadows strategem?

Lias gives full rerolls on misses and +1 in move for them as well.

 

I just realized it now.  Still, Raven Guard are cooler, use Raven Guard.  

 

 

Going for Rift Stalkers. :p

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

 

 

For 70 points LESS than 2 5-man Centurion squads, you can get 5 6-man Aggressor squads. That's a minimum of 420 bolter shots per turn if they hold still. And since they have assault weapons and aren't penalized for advancing you still get 210 bolter shots with a 6-12" move.

 

Oh, and the max for all 5 squads is 720 bolter shots if they don't move.

 

Interesting...... .

 

Now, do I have enough money for 10 Aggressor Squads or 720 dice?

I'm a huge fan of the humble bolter. I am surprised I missed this with the Aggressors. But keep in mind they are 222 points with this load out for a squad of 6 guys. So if you had 10 squads that would be 2220 points. Going for six squad in a spearhead might be a better option. 1,332 points and then you have enough points for 1-2 HQ and 3 Troops.

 

He meant 10 boxes of them. They come 3 to a box, so you need 10 boxes to make 5 squads of 6.

 

The points total is a little over 1100.

 

That's a bit much for my liking. I am, however, eventually going to have a Vanguard detachment with 3 squads of 6, for a devilish 666 points.

[Aothaine]

 

 

 

For 70 points LESS than 2 5-man Centurion squads, you can get 5 6-man Aggressor squads. That's a minimum of 420 bolter shots per turn if they hold still. And since they have assault weapons and aren't penalized for advancing you still get 210 bolter shots with a 6-12" move.

 

Oh, and the max for all 5 squads is 720 bolter shots if they don't move.

Interesting...... .

 

Now, do I have enough money for 10 Aggressor Squads or 720 dice?

I'm a huge fan of the humble bolter. I am surprised I missed this with the Aggressors. But keep in mind they are 222 points with this load out for a squad of 6 guys. So if you had 10 squads that would be 2220 points. Going for six squad in a spearhead might be a better option. 1,332 points and then you have enough points for 1-2 HQ and 3 Troops.

 

He meant 10 boxes of them. They come 3 to a box, so you need 10 boxes to make 5 squads of 6.

 

The points total is a little over 1100.

 

That's a bit much for my liking. I am, however, eventually going to have a Vanguard detachment with 3 squads of 6, for a devilish 666 points.

 

 

Yep my initial list is dropping 3 units of 6 setup for the mass bolter fire. ^_^

[ShinyRhino]

If you're dead set on Striking from the Shadows, skip the Dev Cents and use Assault Cents instead. Hurricanes and Flamers.

If you go first, dakka down an infantry unit and then charge something big. If you go second, use them as a roadblock unit.

 

The psychological effect of placing a unit of Assault Centurions in the Shadows is huge. You'll watch people castle up infantry around tanks, forming little onions of units. Then you can blow their minds by deploying on the objective they left empty.

 

Dev Cents belong deep in your deployment zone, in cover, and out of LOS of the list of things that nuke them easily. People do still use plenty of LOS blocking terrain, right?

[Dracos]

Thanks Rhino  ... until that little bit of advice, I hadn't warmed to the Aggressors really even though I thought the model was pretty good. Now I'll be looking to see if I can slip a squad of 5 in the shadows in a way that might support another part of my army. Regardless ... excellent advice on the Assault Centurions 

[varchilde]

I played my 2nd game with my Carcharadons last night (1250 points). Starting to think the bolter Aggressors are going to be in the running for MVP in the army; used StfS on them to sit them in cover on the midfield and the dakka-ed all game long.

[deadangel101]

I have to chime in here. Centurions are not worth their cost. I have tried using them in 8th, and they are just too expensive and limiting. Their biggest problem? The 4 inch movement rate. Yes they can move and fire heavy weapons without penalty. Yes their shots ignore cover bonuses. But only moving 4 inches is really limiting. Especially if you are using ITC rules for LOS blocking terrain, you would be surprised how often a more maneuverable opponent can keep you from getting shots on them. Their base cost needs to be dropped by at least 30 points for what you get from them.

[Race Bannon]

So, if not using ITC rules for LoS then they are more worthwhile?

[ShinyRhino]

I've found my Assault Centurions to be valuable for their points.

This weekend they mulched Primaris Marines, and were a tough nut to crack even against Hellblasters who were very reluctant to overcharge their guns against our CT.

 

The highlight was SftSing the squad and getting a first turn charge on a Renegade Knight. Stripped 14 wounds in combat, lost one model, then used Honour the Chapter to finish off the Knight.

 

I do find that they need Chaplain support for rerolls though. The squad only had seven attacks, so rerolls were important. I achieved this by dropping a jump pack Chaplain behind them and leaving one model in his bubble for the fight phase. You could do the same thing via another use of SftS or with a Terminator Chaplain.

Edited February 26, 2018 by ShinyRhino