Missile Launchers Missing the Tabletop

[Mileposter]

That's a horrible adjustment. High variance is bad, yes, but wide outliers is good. 1d3+2 Makes a minimum 4 - a poor balance factor.

 

If you want to decrease variance but maintain balance you're better off changing d6 to 2d3. Leave the static '+x' out, it's too dangerous.

[Wargamer]

How or why are wide outliers good? In the most extreme cases you have weapons that can inflict anywhere from 1 to 36 wounds depending on the dice rolls! 

 

This should be the first thing to change - no weapon (with the possible exception of Ork weapons) should have a double-random attribute.

 

Fixed modifiers are fine, especially for weaker weapons. A 2D3 frag missile is still vastly inferior to a flat-3 heavy bolter because of the variance, but if you know you've got at least four shots that variance becomes more palatable.

[Brother Casman]

I was thinking that former small blast weapons could be d3 per 10 models in the target unit, and former large blasts could be d3 per 5 models in the target unit. Perhaps with a hard cap at 6d3? Might not help the missile launcher's woes, though...

[Kallas]

 

Missile Launchers are good in small games on Havocs (because the ability to fire twice allows you to make better use of the split profile). Otherwise I’d take lascannons.

Check the maths with the same havoc squad with 2x HB and 2xLC. Against nearly any target you will do the same or better while saving points. Damned shame.

Actually, that's incorrect from a damage caused perspective:

Average vs T7/3+: 2 Lascannons cause 2.54 damage; 4 Missiles cause 4.03 damage. For a cost: damage ratio, Lascannons 19.69:1, vs ML 24.8:1.

Average vs T3/5+: 6 HB shots cause

2.18 casualties; (avg 14) ML shots cause 4.02. Cost: Casualties that's: HB, 4.59:1, vs ML, 24.8:1.

 

So the MLs actually outperform on a platform to platform basis (ie, not on a price comparison, where it's inherently biased as a specialist vs generalist). But basically, yes, the ML is paying for its versatility (in points and a 1:1 power comparison). But here is the crux my point:

 

The versatile option can choose where it applies its output every time it shoots. The Las/Bolter setup might be more efficient when you're able to target optimal things for each every time, but when you aren't you're losing efficiency - MLs are not.

 

No vehicles? I guess those Lascannons will just pop a Guardsman. No infantry in range/LOS (or too tough)? Well I guess I'll have to throw some extra shots into that tank.

 

Further, the MLs get to choose what is most important. So when you've got infantry and vehicles bearing down, the Las/Bolter setup doesn't get to focus down the vehicles, its Heavy Bolters are pretty much going to have to shoot the infantry if they want to be useful. The MLs get to prioritise, and go all in on Kraks into a particular Rhino, or Frags unloading into a Gaunt unit on an objective - they get to focus all their firepower as and when they need to. That's why they pay so much.

 

When all's said and done, I do actually think MLs need a slight drop in cost though

[chapter master 454]

I do feel the variance of D6 weapons is far too wide. I would think a possible solution, as to prevent these weapons becoming too broken is implementing certain simple rules.

 

If we add static numbers however add a caveat that if the number of shots exceed the number of models in the target unit, you lose any shots above that squads current number (so a weapon that got 5 hits vs. squad that has 2 guys left only gets 2 hits. Can't hit something twice with the same blast) and ofcourse you could alter it depending on what weapon it may be. Some may get to wrap around like this because they hit like freight trains and if the initial shockwave doesn't get you then the following firestorm and shrapnel will.

 

I think there needs to be highs and lows but there is such a HUGE valley of what is good and bad. How did my frag missile get only 1 hit vs. 30 orks? Feels Guard man. How did my vindicators siege cannon only get 1 hit vs. the static building it is meant to turn to rubble? Feels bad man.

Variance is good, hearthstone shows this as it can lead to some insane things and often these are good fun. However it also shows that too much hurts.

 

The question is simple: how many shots feel good on a frag? 4 feels ok, 5 is nice and 6 is great but when we roll 3 and lower it just feels so bad to begin with. It also comes round to still needing to hit as well somehow. It just means these weapons have another point of failure, a second joint that really is far too flexible and open to just failing the whole system. In this game, turns count and when a weapon flubs a turn it just feels bad and not worth it. Not saying there shouldn't be down time but it can feel bad when you big point investment fires one shot and misses (my friend's stormsurge using a pulse driver got this FAR too many times. It just feels so bad for a weapon that costs 107 points!)

[The Unseen]

@Kallas, you don't understand man, when we were doing those comparisons, we were firing the heavy bolters at a tank as well, representing not having other targets and trying to weight it in the missile launchers favor.

 

The bolters add an additional .7ish wounds vs a T7 3+ save, bringing that set-up to around 3.3 wounds caused, a very small decrease over the 4 from missiles.

 

Against GeQ, MeQ, and heavy tanks, the mixed unit does more damage for fewer points, by firing both 2 lascannons and 2 heavy bolters at the same target. And of course you can split fire if you want.

 

Vs infantry, the 2 heavy bolters do a lot more than the frag missiles, as I was doing my math for them as d6 shots, not d3. Their even worse than I thought.

[Wargamer]

Just to point out... Against T7 3+:

 

A Missile Launcher has 29.63% chance of successfully wounding.

A Lascannon has a 37.04% chance of wounding.

 

Both these weapons do equal damage.

 

A Heavy Bolter has 11.11% chance of wounding per shot, so that's 33.33% chance for the whole volley.

 

It's pretty clear that the 2 Las 2 HB have much better odds of dealing damage to your hypothetical target.

 

Or to put it another way:

 

4 Kraks works out at 1.185 wounds, causing D6 damage each.

 

2 LC + 2 HB gives us 0.741 wounds, causing D6 damage + 0.667 wounds causing 1 damage. That's 1.407 successful wounds total before damage.

[Kallas]

Vs infantry, the 2 heavy bolters do a lot more than the frag missiles, as I was doing my math for them as d6 shots, not d3. Their even worse than I thought.

Frags are D6 shots. So they're what they are.

 

But yeah, I do agree that they're actually somewhat lacklustre (it's likely to do with the Bolter profile, and how weedy that is now, plus random shots).

 

You're right that Las/HB is better at focus firing, which is dumb.

[The Unseen]

@Kallas

 

Yep, it's dumb.

I don't like it, because I love missile launchers, models and themes, but they desperately need to be cheaper.