Space Marine anti horde devices

[Stormxlr]

How do you deal with hordes? For example one of my local tyranid players bring ~250 models to 2k game, while I brought my Deathwing with 25 models.

Prepare for wall of text.

 

Ive been looking at sicaran punisher, kinda changed my mind about it. But not by it self, the cannon is simply a heavy 18 heavy bolter,and you get another 1 heavy bolter on the hull all together for 165 pts. +20pts for 2sponson heavy bolter bringing it to 185pts. The hull is 14 wounds and T7. All together thats 27 heavy bolter shots. I was thinking wouldnt it be better to get 2 or 3 quad hb rapiers. But they are only T5 W4 with 2 gunners.

So Ive looked at it and thought whats better is not one or another but combination of one sicaran punisher and 2 quad hb rapiers for 337 points you get 3 units and 51 heavy bolter shots!

That is equivalent of 17 heavy bolters, If you buy 4 devastator squads with heavy bolters you get 16 heavy bolters for 420 pts!

So sicaran and 2 rapiers are really good shot per point at ~6.6 points per shot, while 4 devastator squads are 8.75.

PLUS you get more wounds and tougher platforms!

What is your opinion of this unit combo? And what are your ways to deal with massive hordes?

Edited February 8, 2018 by Stormxlr

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

[Schlitzaf]

Honest answer? is just raw bodies. Not saying horde and run 60+ Marines. But the Marine lists that do well, run sizable body count, the BA Intercessor list at LVO, or last fall, the Gulliman TacticalRazorspam list. They upwards of 30 Marines bodies as a core list. Run 2 ten Ten Man Tacticals with HeavyBolter/Plasma/CombiPlasma, and two of those give 356, gives you 20 Bodies. I don't know your exact list composition. Or if you prefer a more Templar/Space Wolves style center, ASM Squads at 151 (10 Man, 3 Plasma Pistols), give you an appreciable and cheap chaff clearing squad, at 302. (Before you say muh Vangaurd, two Vangaurd squads cost 60 more points, which is 5 man squad or another terminator). 

 

The issue with high elite armies, if your paying for fast engagement generally and focus of firepower. While lacking long term staying power. Horde Armies in contrast, generally aren't very alpha striky, but have inevitability. They will throw enough dice over course of the game to wear you down. And finally horde suffers, from inability to properly engage the enemy force. A unit of 30 Orks, if engaged with ten marines, will likely at best only have half the squads able to hit. If you want to see this fact highlighted, close combat is honestly perfect. An elite unit, like Terminators will hit hard and will murder. But as they even 1-2 models, their combat effectiveness is reduce 20-40%. By the time they are whittled to 1-2 models, they are negligible and die to small arms fire. Having more high toughness, high wound count models only highlight your current scenario. 

 

You have hard hitting first 1-2 turns, but come turn 3-4, you force is a paltry. I man not saying take a horde, I am saying take staying power. Its similar but different. Razorspam works because while lacking bodies it has staying power. A wounded Razor is able to effectively shoot, as long is it doesn't move. Then once firefight range is joined, the hiding tacticals can jump out and engage. Any unit you have in 300+ Point range, will only make worse your current problems. 3 10 Man Tacticals, a Basic Captain and Liutanent will run around 700 Points. If you run 2 Deathwing, 1 Deathwing Knight, and Belial, you'll be left with 500 Points. Quite a tidy points count to spend on toys and other things. 

 

'shrug' The basic answer, for me is that adding something like that to your list, will only make worse your current situation

[Kallas]

Or if you prefer a more Templar/Space Wolves style center, ASM Squads at 151 (10 Man, 3 Plasma Pistols), give you an appreciable and cheap chaff clearing squad, at 302. (Before you say muh Vangaurd, two Vangaurd squads cost 60 more points, which is 5 man squad or another terminator)

No, Vanguard absolutely are a better investment than Assault Marines, especially if you're taking an option that Vanguard can also take (so everything besides Flamers...)

 

VV cost

2.29ppa (points per attack; including Bolt Pistol); bring 7 attacks per battle round.

AM cost 2.6ppa (including Bolt Pistol); bring 5 attacks per battle round.

 

47 attacks (15 AM): 50 attacks (12 VV), including Bolt Pistols (which don't deserve as much weight as that). That's a 6.38% (3 attacks) increase in volume of attacks, for a 1.54% (3pts) decrease in cost. Those are points equivalent (2x6 VV @192pts; 2x7/8 AM @195pts).

 

Just to clarify, at 302pts (2x10 AM with 6 Plasma Pistols, the unit you suggested in your post) that's 2x8 VV (with 6 Plasma Pistols). Comparatively, that's 62 attacks (AM); 66 attacks (VV). So again, that's a 6.45% increase in attacks for a 1.32% decrease in cost.

 

Assault Marines are bad, when compared to Vanguard. And yes, the above is comparing both the AM and VV without Jump Packs, where the cost difference is in the favour of the AM; if Jump Packs are involved then the cost/attack difference is even more in favour of taking VV as the AM get less bodies by proportion.

[Schlitzaf]

As I explained above. It’s a 60 Point difference or 5 wounds. I’d rather take the 5 more wounds then the extra attacks. (20 Man Vangaurd put 62, 25 ASM put out 53). Offensive Vangaurd are better like most elite units. But weaker defensively.

 

I’ll take the 5 more wounds over 10 attacks. And if I was having issues with hordes, I’d much rather take the 5 more models over extra attacks. To have the extra staying power. As losing 1 Vangaurd is offensively losing skin to 2 Assault Marines. (1 Model with 3 or 4 attacks vs 2 Models with 2 Attacks). NB Pistols existence means it’s like losing a Vangaurd 2/3 of 2 Assault Marines. But if we are going off Assault Phase attack’s only, 1 Vangaurd offensively similar to 2 Assault Marines

Edited February 8, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[Kallas]

I made a comparison for points equivalent. VV are better, point for point, than AM. AM only bring a couple of extra wounds, which is important for sure, but offensively they're worse - which is something you absolutely need vs hordes. Edited February 8, 2018 by Kallas

[Schlitzaf]

No, you need staying power vs hordes. You only need offensive ability for the killing blow or first strike. Your core or centered force is meant to engage and lock enemy down. Sense the center gonna take most casualties, you need to be able to receive the initial blow. Yes Vangaurd and Elites are good round 1. But once round 2 or enemy counter attack their combat potential and threat will drop like a rock. First blow is all about engagement. Either on the reception or otherwise. And when on the reception, raw bodies or wounds are needed. If you hit a 30 Man Gaunt Squad. 21 > 14 > 9.32 you kill about 7.77. Vs 31 > 20.66 > 13.66. Or 11.55. Pistols/Chainswords additional attacks 10 > 6.66 > 4.44 or 3.7. The difference is 4. But if your on reception of charge. 60 > 30 > 15 > 5. 1.66.

 

Vangaurd just lost 1-2 Marines. Or 6 Attacks on average (or 2 Dead Gaunts). While ASM lost only 4.5 Attacks or 1.5 Dead Gaunts. The difference is marginal when your goal is be able to take a hit. The slight loss in relative damage is unimportant. You’d rather more bodies with less attacks. Sense the extra damage caused is mostly insigificant, give 3-4 more wounds won’t kill enough to actually remove active combatants from the melee and hordes like have battle shock immunity. Or you wiped Squad with just ASM level of attacks. For the killing blow or first blow to hit key targets like monsters you want raw attacks. But long term engagements, you’d rather bodies

Edited February 8, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[Kallas]

More bodies with less attacks will also kill off less, meaning that their defensive additional advantage is squandered by their inability to reduce the enemy's numbers.

 

In above comparison of 2x8 VV and 2x10 AM: the VV have 66 attacks:16 Wounds (or a 4.125A:1W ratio), while the AM have 62:20 (3.1A:1W). So roughly a 3 VV:4 AM ratio, which points wise is not attainable for the AM (they're approximately 19.25% cheaper, or a 4 VV:5 AM cost ratio). Which means that for your points investment VV are the more efficient option, as they're putting out more attacks for their cost and how much damage they can take.

 

For their cost Assault Marines don't cause enough damage, and the extra cost of bodies is not great. If you're going without Jump Packs you'd better served with Tactical Marines, who bring the same volume of attacks but with a ranged weighting instead of melee. Incidentally that also makes it easier to bring more Battalions.

 

Tacticals are essentially the same as Assault Marines, except they don't need close the distance and can bring far more useful tools (ie, Plasma, Flamers, Heavy Bolters, etc). If you're planning to engage in melee then using your Tacticals to anchor and then counter attack with the Vanguard is far more effective/efficient than trying to anchor with Assault Marines and counter attack with... More Assault Marines?

 

It's possible that they might just sit there slowly carving through the event, probably because they're stuck on 30 Gaunts and will for the rest of the game, given their terrible cost:attacks.

 

And that's all assuming no Jump Packs, which one huge in determining who gets the first strike in, and when comparing AM/VV makes AM even worse.

 

Are you actually arguing in favour of a couple extra wounds? Is that seriously the reason why someone should take AM over VV? Because that is pretty pathetic a role for a unit as expensive as AM: be a crap meatshield that can't kill much!

[Firepower]

Ugh, yet another statistics dual.

 

Long story short, the best solution to hordes at this point seems to be boots on the ground.  A small concentration of points on some more powerful firepower isn't a bad idea, so long as you do it sparingly.  I think a pair of HB rapiers would be fine.  I wouldn't go for the Sicaran, though.  Aside from eating up an abundance of points, a single tank can be effectively taken out of the game by a successful charge.  With 250 models on the table, your Nid opponent will have plenty of chances to make that charge.

 

You may want to invest in a Thunderfire as well.  Its Stratagem can be useful for delaying a nasty charge or keeping a unit from reaching an objective, and it puts out a lot of deent chaff-clearing shots for its cost.

 

Pepper a couple of cheap Lieutenants around to help land those wounds.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Firepower

[Schlitzaf]

The difference between killing 11 vs 15 vs hordes is small. As the only about 15 enemy models should ever be able to engage with proper placement. And over the course of 2 combat rounds you will reduce a gaunt to an insignificant number. Furthermore, the 5 extra Assault Marines. Gives you set 3 8 Mans whom have much better board coverage than 2 10 Man Vangaurd. Or the Vangaurd are running small squads which get pick off by chaff fire. And as I said, once the battle on the table is joined. A Vangaurd dies just as easily as ASM. That Vangaurd who just died is offensively worth 2 or 1.5 Assault Marines.

 

The Vangaurd threat potential is reduce far faster and more readily than an equivalent set of Assault Marines. Vangaurd do more attacks and offensively better. That not what you need vs hordes. What you need is the ability to take a hit. It’s why Intercessors are good. Because they have the wound count needed to absorb smal arm fire. If OP was willing use Intercessors, I’d suggest those. But based on his other posts he isn’t. You keep saying “but only few more points gets you..”.

——

0 Dead

Vangaurd 60

Assault 50

——

2 Dead.

Vangaurd 54.

Assault 46.

——

4 Dead.

48 Vangaurd.

42 Assault Marines.

——

6 Dead.

42 Vangaurd.

38 ASM.

——

8 Dead.

36 Vangaurd.

34 Assault.

——

10 Dead

30 Vangaurd.

30 Assault Marines

 

And their remains 15 Assault Marines to 10 Vangaurd. This was a brief and dirty comparison, but when both Squads take wounds, ASM, endure it and degrade far less painfully. Also in general what firepower said

Edited February 8, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[Wargamer]

Something else to keep in mind is that hordes can be surprisingly deadly at wiping out a single vehicle model - Tyranid Hive Guard are a particularly nightmarish example. If you're relying on a single big tank to wipe out hordes, you can easily be undone with a bit of forward planning.

[Kallas]

You keep saying “but only few more points gets you..”.

Yes, because it's a pretty minimal increase for greater effectiveness. If you let 130pts of Assault Marines languish in melee, killing 6pt Gaunts slowly for the rest of the game, that's not particularly useful. If you spend 160pts on Vanguard, they'll cut through them 50% faster and be able to engage again much sooner.

 

The difference between killing 11 vs 15 vs hordes is small. As the only about 15 enemy models should ever be able to engage with proper placement. And over the course of 2 combat rounds you will reduce a gaunt to an insignificant number. Furthermore, the 5 extra Assault Marines. Gives you set 3 8 Mans whom have much better board coverage than 2 10 Man Vangaurd. Or the Vangaurd are running small squads which get pick off by chaff fire. And as I said, once the battle on the table is joined.

3x8 Assault Marines gives you 19/20 Vanguard, so you can run 2x7/1x6. Yes they do die just the same, and I'm sure you'd agree that units like AM and VV both, particularly MSU, should generally be held in counter attack positions, preferably out of LOS (which isn't much of an issue considering their lack of a significant ranged presence).

 

On the flip side of hordes only getting a certain amount of models involved, having a smaller unit means can concentrate your models in a smaller area, meaning that a horde unit can get even less models involved. Consider - one model move to within 1" of one enemy model, while the others hang back at 1" of that model. If they're removing models close to your unit, your consolidate can get you back in (kind of depends on lots of positioning on table) or you can hold back and they won't get to attack you. If they pull models further away then don't consolidate in and they'll get less attacks on you.

 

I do see quite a lot of ragging on MSU, but there are advantages in there too.

 

A Vangaurd dies just as easily as ASM. That Vangaurd who just died is offensively worth 2 or 1.5 Assault Marines.

They're offensively 2:3 Assault Marines (if you include Bolt Pistols), defensively 1:1 and cost 4:5. Yeah, they do die as quickly, and that is an element of the comparison, but Marines can't really afford to have units being minimally effective and the cost of the upgrade versus the increase in effectiveness is worthwhile.

 

The Vanguard threat potential is reduce far faster and more readily than an equivalent set of Assault Marines. Vanguard do more attacks and offensively better. That not what you need vs hordes. What you need is the ability to take a hit. It’s why Intercessors are good. Because they have the wound count needed to absorb small arm fire. If OP was willing use Intercessors, I’d suggest those. But based on his other posts he isn’t.

Yes, AM lose less per loss but they also have a lower maximum in the first place.

 

8 AM is 17 (25 w/ Pistols) attacks; 7 VV is 22 (29 w/ Pistols).

 

So that degrades:

AM / VV

17 / 22

15 / 19

13 / 16

11 / 13

9 / 10

7 / 7

 

So at 6 casualties they hit the same output, with 0-1 Vanguard left and 2 AM left. those AM aren't going to do anything, at that point (neither is the 0-1 Vanguard!)

 

Really, against hordes of Gaunts (or Guard) I don't really see basic melee units achieving anything of note. Especially against Kraken Trait Tyranids, who'll happily get stuck in, take barely any casualties from AM (and a few more from VV) and then bounce off them to go engage some shooty units. Melee just gives them a few extra Pile In/Consolidate moves.

 

Heavy Bolter Rapiers, Thunderfire Cannons, Assault Bolter Inceptors, etc are really going to cause more damage. Just had a quick look at some other options and there are some nice cheap (points-wise anyway) ones: Mortis Dreadnought (2x Twin HB for 109; 2x AC for 119); Mortis Contemptor (2xTwin HB for 140; 2x Kheres AC for 156). Pretty cheap for volume of fire, and also pretty resilient (especially to small arms).

 

Tacticals would hold the line just as effectively as AM/VV (same resilience) and are a bit more useful during the closing stages with their Bolters (and possibly Heavy/Special Weapons). Units of AM/VV are likely much better employed as they're usually taken (ie, Jump Packs) where they can intervene in a wider area and/or go after nastier targets (such as Hive Guard) to keep them locked down.

[Claws and Effect]

I do Vanguard with twin claws.

 

3 attacks each that reroll to wound. A 5 man squad is putting out 16 attacks per turn, and more of them will successfully wound compared to ASM chainswords. And against most horde units the claws' AP will eliminate their save.

[Schlitzaf]

Kallas I did say “Tacticals” then added the caveat “Unless you want to play like Black Templars and Space Wolves then use Assault Marines”. Also, a basic melee unit will smash a squad of Gaunts in 1.5 Rounds of Melee. You do an average 10 wounds, every time you attack. The Gaunts in contrast will only do about one wound.

 

The extra four wounds provided by the Vangaurd over the Assault Marines, especially when foot walking, is unneeded. As their goal is simply to deal damage. And against a horde of doing 10 Wounds is just the same as doing 14 wounds. Especially even after losing only 1-2 models, you are still averaging 7-9 wounds. Where a unit like Vangaurd damage output and lacks the flexibility of proper engagement.

 

The best unit for this role (beside Grey Hunter and Crusader Squads) is 4-6 5 Man Intercessors Squads. Simply because they can engage at all stages and can hold the line. Then with three PowSword attacks, take on other MeQ units, and do damage beyond wet noodling.

[Captain Idaho]

It's not going to be popular but the best way to beat hordes with Marines is with bodies. My lists have around 50 infantry models plus vehicles.

 

The sooner the meta moves away from skewed list building into combined arms the better.

[breng77]

Scout bikers and agressors have done well for me.  Typically my recent lists can kill about 50-60/Orks GEQ a turn, so more nids typically.  9 Scout bikes put out 54 S4 shots at 12" range (+combi/storm bolter if you want) for 225 points. (16 dead GEQ with no buffs) and also have 19 attacks on the charge.

 

For something like raven guard you can deploy in range to shoot twice turn 1 (if you go first).  6 of them will average  114 S4 shots at 18" which is ~34 dead Guardsman. 

 

Both can  easily can be more than that with a captain and LT.

[arigatous]

It's not going to be popular but the best way to beat hordes with Marines is with bodies. 

 

I second that and agree with Schlitzaf as well. Horde archetype is meant to be especially effective vs small-numbered elite armies. We don't usually see this in tournaments just because of small time limits. Without the time pressure horde will inevitably beat an elite setup. The only thing that helps vs horde is more bodies.

[Joukernaut]

I don't often play in a very competitive meta, but I do face hordes on a regular basis.

If you equip assault marines with jump packs and survive the first wave of incoming horde, you can jump up flame them, charge them, then (if you survived) jump out of combat, flamer them, and flamer them again on overwatch.

I've ran three 5 man dual flamer squads recently, hiding them out of LOS, then jumping them in, flamer, charge, jump out after, flamer again.

To a lesser extent the same goes for a three man flamer/flamer/combi-flamer bikesquad.

If you can deliver them and keep them alive assault centurions will make short work of any horde armie when equipped with hurricane bolters and flamers, especially when supported by an ancient and apothecary. Big plus is they will be able to handle anything else they get into contact with as well with those siege drills.

Other than that I agree that bodies help, intercessors with their two wounds and two attacks are great value and not easily shifted.

[Kilofix]

Stormtalon and Assault Centurions?

[Dracos]

30 Intercessors, 20 Hellblasters, 10 Reivers, approx 1200 points flavor with couple captains and lieutenants it’s a tad heavy in infantry for an all- comers list but for horde it should work. Cheapest 3+ wound per point possible I think.

 

Then someone will mention Hordes using tanks and monsters and we get back to Captain Idaho. Although I’ve never been a fan of vehicles cut to their cost the game is best when using balanced combined arms list played well. Yes some units are always going to be more optimal than others but in my opinion, Astartes means winning with skill not a particular spam of units.

[Kallas]

I've been really enjoying Las/Bolter Predators. They are reasonably cheap (160), bring a pair of Heavy Bolters which help to thin out hordes, Twin Lascannons put the hurt on tanks/monsters (and with Killshot, Heavy Bolters can really add to the pain, even wiping the weaker vehicles like DE Raiders alone).

 

They also help fill out the usually expensive Heavy Support slots (and Bolter Inceptors or Tarantulas can fill out Fast Attack for cheap/effective).

[Cap'm Heckus]

I’m a fan of the “volume of fire” approach. I say 6 aggressors screened by 6 more aggressors. 36+6d6 shots per squad hitting on 3+ even when they advance. 72+12d6 shots per Squad when the stand still. 18” range. Sprinkle in captains and Lts for bonus kick. Some inceptors riding shotgun. Good times.

[Dracos]

Crap, I'm think I'm really warming up to this Aggressor unit. :) At least one squad of them coming out of the shadows with a Grav Captain 

[Firepower]

Aggressors are one of the more aesthetically likable Primaris units.  Not likable enough to taint my Crusade with Primaris heresy, but still, nice :D

[Kallas]

Aggressors are one of the more aesthetically likable Primaris units. Not likable enough to taint my Crusade with Primaris heresy, but still, nice :D

*shudder* They're so... I don't even know what exactly I hate about their models but I cannot stand them! Their rules are much better/more appropriately costed now but damn they ugly