Mortal Wounds are a Problem

[Wargamer]

The problem, Lysere, is that Mortal Wounds don't work the way you claim they do.

 

Mortal Wounds are not universally "cast Smite, screw everyone." Sniper Rifles inflict Mortal Wounds on a wound roll of 6. Tyranid electro-guns inflict Mortal Wounds to vehicles on a 4+ to wound.

 

It sounds like your issue isn't with Mortal Wounds, but with Smite.

[Atrus]

Ive never liked the multiple sources of MW. Even in the teaser days before 8th came out, i started thinking that it was okay as something that powerful would surely be restricted. But lo and behold the eldar teaser came out and it was a smorgasbord of MW.

 

Im fine with MW cutting through everything. Im not fine with it being so readily avaiolable to and from so many sources.

Psykers? Thats fine. Exploding vehicles? Fine with that. Snipers? Okay. After that, things start to go down hill pretty fast.

The beta rules for psykers help smite spam a lot and i think its fine.

 

The whole notion of "adjust to the MW tactic" imo is psychotic. Lets get something straight. MW spam is not a tactic. It is lazy. Spamming the sources of MW and screening behind little gribblies so opponent doesnt have a chance to get at those sources does not require skill or strategy on behalf of the spammer. It is lazy playing that punishes the other player for bothering to set up on the table.

 

Not everyone is able to soak up MW with cheap fleshbags. Looking at pure armies because not eeveryone plays soup and "play soup" should not be the go to argument to get cheap bodies in someonea army who may only play and enjoy a single faction.

 

Not everyone has access to MW. Look at SoB (whose faith can soak up meltaguns and lascannons to the face but not a splinter from a blown up rhino though same can be said for THSS termies but thats a different pile of salt), not a single source in there at all. Tau (yeah rail guns but only on a 6 to wound) Necrons (i think, you know i havent actually seen their index so i could be wrong).

 

I can understand what they were trying to do with things like nurgle farts and mortarions b.o. and things like that but i dont think MW is the answer. Just takes away too much from the players hands.

 

TL;DR MW should be much more restricted/less readily available.

[Triszin]

Its a problem GW created which isnt going away.

 

the issue was spamming of invulnerable saves (which are now common)

 

no they spammed mortal wounds

 

so now a new form of invulnerable saves (FNP, wulfen ignore wounds) is now taking the place of what shouldve been a invulnerable save.

 

in saves should've always worked against everything but the success should degrade in regards to the STR of the incoming attack.

 

so a rail gun has a higher chance of wounding a invulnerable save compared to a laz gun.

and if they didn't have a invuln then it would be a MW

 

so a STR 20 attack against a T10 4+ should be a 6+ save.

 

but above a STR 21+ it should be a mortal wound, have the invuln scale with the T value of the unit. or invent some new INV scale to show it, maybe base it off the 4,5,6 scale we have.

 

6 inv scale becomes mortal wounds at S15 attacks

5 inv scale becomes MW at S20 attacks

4 inv scale becomes MW's at S25 attacks.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Triszin

[Gentlemanloser]

Ah yes. Misplacing Bobby G because a unit with fly, that ignored other units and terrain, and can also advance without penalty, managed to maneuver to make Bobby the closest unit to it.

 

Yeah, such misplacement...

 

Edit. You do realise Bobbys rules state he has to be placed as close as possible to his old position but over 1" away, right?

 

So letting him get shot wasn't a decision that could be changed....

 

/sigh

Edited February 9, 2018 by Gentlemanloser

[Wargamer]

Thinking on this, I believe I have the solution.

 

Mortal Wounds should be Psychic attacks - powers, Force weapons, etc.

Psykers should have a "Psychic Save" - an Invun against Mortal Wounds.

Certain Psykers should project auras that give a Psychic Save to friendly units nearby.

 

This would mean that Mortal Wounds are a choice - if you want them, or want resistance to them, you need Psykers.

 

Certain armies can have exceptions of course - Armies like Grey Knights, Sisters or Thousand Sons should have army-wide "Psychic Saves", as should any Blank unit.

 

This in turn allows for more varied and more interesting unit combinations; being highly resistant to Mortal Wounds won't necessarily help when Mr Angry wants to share his favourite Thunder Hammer.

[TheFinisher4Ever]

The problem with Mortal Wounds being the rock to elite armies scissors is that elite armies are already at a disadvantage. There is no more invisible 2+, 2++, 2+++ units. The toughest a unit gets this edition is a 2+ save with 1 reroll per phase. You no longer need to get around that. Buckets of dice will kill that just as easily as will a horde of 5+ models, especially since 3+ invulns are still incredibly uncommon. At most, youll get 4+ invulns most of the time, which is a coin flip. Its a an answer to a problem that doesn't actually exist. Every army in the game can kill elite infantry. What KombatWombat said in the previous page is correct. Its an answer to a problem that no longer exists, so now it just discourages elite infantry.

 

I also disagree with the analysis that Invuln saves are too prevalent as the 3++ is actually still pretty rare. What that means is most of the time you are dealing with a 4++ or 5++ which really isn't that survivable. Its either saving 50% or 33% of wounds. Reducing a unit with a 2+ to a 5++ is still certainly worthwhile.

 

Also, Mortal Wounds are not what make Eldar as good as they are, its mostly Alaitoc, reapers and Ynarri shenanigans. The only Mortal Wounds they can dish out, outside of the Psychic Phase, are from scorpions and Wave Serpents. And no one uses Scorpions because they are awful. People use the wave serpent because its great, not because of its one-time-use D3 mortal wounds.

Edited February 9, 2018 by TheFinisher4Ever

[Kinstryfe]

My view is that MW are simply too lazy of a mechanic and it's filling a niche that could easily be made powerful, but not overwhelming, by some creativity in making rules. Instead of every psyker just having a variety of smite, mix it up. Allow invulnerable saves, but also allow modifiers. A cheap Guard psyker may give a -1 to invulnerable, while a psychic monster like a zoanthrope may give -3. Also just make more variety in powers to make them do more than kill elites. There's no reason not to be a lot more varied with rules and just slap mortal wounds on everything.

[Triszin]

My view is that MW are simply too lazy of a mechanic and it's filling a niche that could easily be made powerful, but not overwhelming, by some creativity in making rules. Instead of every psyker just having a variety of smite, mix it up. Allow invulnerable saves, but also allow modifiers. A cheap Guard psyker may give a -1 to invulnerable, while a psychic monster like a zoanthrope may give -3. Also just make more variety in powers to make them do more than kill elites. There's no reason not to be a lot more varied with rules and just slap mortal wounds on everything.

I really like this

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

 

My view is that MW are simply too lazy of a mechanic and it's filling a niche that could easily be made powerful, but not overwhelming, by some creativity in making rules. Instead of every psyker just having a variety of smite, mix it up. Allow invulnerable saves, but also allow modifiers. A cheap Guard psyker may give a -1 to invulnerable, while a psychic monster like a zoanthrope may give -3. Also just make more variety in powers to make them do more than kill elites. There's no reason not to be a lot more varied with rules and just slap mortal wounds on everything.

I really like this

 

Its not a bad Idea, but I can still see this getting just abused just the same eating through all the invul save. Watching a squad of cheap zoan's supernuke a squad of terminators (which have a 5++ save getting completely removed, make terminators literally useless). And since you can easily spam psykers or squads of psykers depending on the faction (especially Grey Knights and Thousand Suns, where EVERYONE is a psyker) being able to remove 50-200 pts models just spamming smites is going to utterly break the game. Imagine watching Guillimen or Magnus get utterly psyker nuked by a couple squads of zoanthropes being able to utterly remove invul saves. Storm shields (which arent exactly cheap and give a 3++ at 7 to 15 points per shield), Iron Halo, refractor fields and such are instantly gone. You are just going to have psyker spam the likes you have never seen.

 

I would like the old force weapon rule be brought back (if you can deal a wound with a force weapon, you make a psychic test and if you pass you can instantly kill a model but you can still suffer perils of the warp). but thats just personally what I would like back.

[Beams]

The problem with Mortal Wounds being the rock to elite armies scissors is that elite armies are already at a disadvantage. There is no more invisible 2+, 2++, 2+++ units. The toughest a unit gets this edition is a 2+ save with 1 reroll per phase. You no longer need to get around that. Buckets of dice will kill that just as easily as will a horde of 5+ models, especially since 3+ invulns are still incredibly uncommon. At most, youll get 4+ invulns most of the time, which is a coin flip. Its a an answer to a problem that doesn't actually exist. Every army in the game can kill elite infantry. What KombatWombat said in the previous page is correct. Its an answer to a problem that no longer exists, so now it just discourages elite infantry.

 

I also disagree with the analysis that Invuln saves are too prevalent as the 3++ is actually still pretty rare. What that means is most of the time you are dealing with a 4++ or 5++ which really isn't that survivable. Its either saving 50% or 33% of wounds. Reducing a unit with a 2+ to a 5++ is still certainly worthwhile.

 

Also, Mortal Wounds are not what make Eldar as good as they are, its mostly Alaitoc, reapers and Ynarri shenanigans. The only Mortal Wounds they can dish out, outside of the Psychic Phase, are from scorpions and Wave Serpents. And no one uses Scorpions because they are awful. People use the wave serpent because its great, not because of its one-time-use D3 mortal wounds.

Right now I can get a GK librarian a stormshield and a forcestaff, the 6+++ warlord trait, and the Cuirass of sacrifice for another 5++++. A smite or two makes it a lot easier than trying to get a few melta gun shots in.

 

All that said, are large chunk of HQs have a 4++ or better, with a Cannoness at a 4++, most space marine Captains having the option of a 3++, bullgryn bodyguards getting up to a 2++.

[kombatwombat]

Can you imagine trying to take down things like Guillimen or a squad of assault terminators (TH and SS) in this edition without mortal wounds?

Easily.

 

You realise that for the last... I want to say seven editions since they lost their 2D6 3+ save Terminators have been terrible? You want to kill Terminators, massed fire of any kind. Just force them to roll saves, they will eventually get caught by a bad roll that just obliterates them. Anything with lots of shots and AP-1 - which are extremely common - is an effective anti-Terminator weapon. Autocannons are the absolute bane of Storm Shield Terminators, with multiple shots, just enough AP to force them to use their Inv save but no more, and 2 damage killing a model with every failed save. You’re not going to throw away CP by rerolling saves against 8 autocannon shots when elsewhere on the board someone’s just about to fire a Meltagun into your Warlord. Terminators only seem tough when people think that powerful weapons like Melta are effective anti-Terminator weapons, when really what you want is a Heavy Bolter. Hell, a Sicaran Punisher nearly kills an entire Storm Shield Terminator Squad in one go! — Edit: sorry, forgot they had two wounds. It kills half of the squad.

 

Exploding vehicles? Fine with that.

Really? You’re fine that a Storm Shielded Terminator can shrug off a direct hit from a Volcano Cannon, but a flimsy Ork Trukk’s fuel tank exploding kills him? Edited February 10, 2018 by kombatwombat

[Warhead01]

I like Mortal wounds and don't see a problem at all. It is what it is.  I have one reliable unit that can dish them out and 2 that I never field because they are too random and the other hits on a 5+, I tried it sadly can't justify it in my lists. I think the real problem is players using that mechanic as a crutch.

[TheFinisher4Ever]

 

The problem with Mortal Wounds being the rock to elite armies scissors is that elite armies are already at a disadvantage. There is no more invisible 2+, 2++, 2+++ units. The toughest a unit gets this edition is a 2+ save with 1 reroll per phase. You no longer need to get around that. Buckets of dice will kill that just as easily as will a horde of 5+ models, especially since 3+ invulns are still incredibly uncommon. At most, youll get 4+ invulns most of the time, which is a coin flip. Its a an answer to a problem that doesn't actually exist. Every army in the game can kill elite infantry. What KombatWombat said in the previous page is correct. Its an answer to a problem that no longer exists, so now it just discourages elite infantry.

 

I also disagree with the analysis that Invuln saves are too prevalent as the 3++ is actually still pretty rare. What that means is most of the time you are dealing with a 4++ or 5++ which really isn't that survivable. Its either saving 50% or 33% of wounds. Reducing a unit with a 2+ to a 5++ is still certainly worthwhile.

 

Also, Mortal Wounds are not what make Eldar as good as they are, its mostly Alaitoc, reapers and Ynarri shenanigans. The only Mortal Wounds they can dish out, outside of the Psychic Phase, are from scorpions and Wave Serpents. And no one uses Scorpions because they are awful. People use the wave serpent because its great, not because of its one-time-use D3 mortal wounds.

Right now I can get a GK librarian a stormshield and a forcestaff, the 6+++ warlord trait, and the Cuirass of sacrifice for another 5++++. A smite or two makes it a lot easier than trying to get a few melta gun shots in.

 

All that said, are large chunk of HQs have a 4++ or better, with a Cannoness at a 4++, most space marine Captains having the option of a 3++, bullgryn bodyguards getting up to a 2++.

That GK Librarian sounds fairly tough, but he's nothing close to the old Smashfather level. Autocannons will still hurt him pretty bad. Anything with D6 damage can still potentially 1 shot him. Massed fire will still bring him down, that it will take a bunch of shots. An invisible 2+ 2++ 4+++ with 15 look out sir wounds he is not.

 

As I said above, I don't think a lot 4+ invulns is a problem, and it's certainly not a problem that requires mortal wounds to fix.

 

3+ invulns are really only regurarely available on units that can take storm shields, which is generally assualt terminators and some HQs. Also not a problem that requires mortal wounds to fix. Want to fix the amount of stormshields you see? Increase their price on characters.

[Quixus]

Need more save mechanics to MW (certain units can use their invuln maybe, ie. Terminators)

This however invalidates the whole concept of MW. The idea is that no save is allowed. I would not mind doing that.

 

From a design perspective I think GW is making the same mistake as they did with the different power weapons in 6th and 7th edition. They invent a new paradigm (higher strength means lower AP and/or unwieldy) and then hand out "special" weapons that go against that paradigm. With that concept there should not be any AP2 at initiative.

 

8th edition introduced the concepts that every hit has a chance to wound and that there is armour that can save against any wound (I have not seen AP -5 yet) but that AP makes all armour saves harder. Then they introduce MW which ignores the whole idea.

 

Mortal wounds really should be gone. Make them Ignore toughness and/or automatically wound, but do not remove invulnerable saves. Also the spillover should be dependent on the type of attack. Area effects should spill over but would be limited in effect against a single target, targeted effects should not spill over but should work better against multi wound targets. The price of both would have to be balanced against each other.

 

I think the real problem is players using that mechanic as a crutch.

You call it a crutch, I call it playing to your army's strength. You neatly summed up the problem with mortal wounds. They are too good not to spam.This could either be fixed by making them less effective or more expensive and rare.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

8E is pretty much the "here's a good idea that fixes the game...and then let's just completely ruin it by ignoring it" edition. Reset faction balance? Begin codex creep cycle again. Make morale matter again and gut ATSKNF? Allow certain armies to completely negate morale. Make saves matter again and make units pay a premium for their save? Make mortal wounds ignore all saves. Keep mortal wounds rare to preserve balance? Hand it out to everyone.

[Gentlemanloser]

You could run a FW Chaplain dread as a Red Scorpion with Iron Hands tactics in Culln the Risens bubble as your Warlord.

 

For a 3+ / 5++ with four 6+++ saves...

[FirstSonofHorus]

I think if you changed all smites to an AP-3 (or thereabouts) wound, it would solve the majority of the problem. Still keep mortal wounds in other instances so there are ways around those tough units with high invulnerable with high invulnerable saves - but would mitigate the number of them. 

Edited February 10, 2018 by FirstSonofHorus

[Warhead01]

 

 

I think the real problem is players using that mechanic as a crutch.

You call it a crutch, I call it playing to your army's strength. You neatly summed up the problem with mortal wounds. They are too good not to spam.This could either be fixed by making them less effective or more expensive and rare.

Maybe I wasn't very clear in my post. 

Yes I do think it's a crutch. Not the mechanic or even using that mechanic. But I mean spamming the mechanic which seems to be what I have read about the most. 

I have a weird boy. a Shock Attack Gun and a Zap Gun. All three of those can produce Mortal Wounds but only one of those will always produce mortal wounds. No one will fields nothing but the latter two but there are lots of players that will spam the weird boy. Much like all the other and much cheaper psykers that, it seems to me, created this situation.

That's the crutch as I see it. 

If your saying, and I am not sure if you are or are not, that spamming mortal wound generators (Like low cost psykers) is playing to n armies strength then I would disagree. It's semantics but it's not playing to that armies strengths it's playing to that armies only strength.  Can that army do nothing else at all? 

Which still comes back to the players and how they play. 

I'm of the opinion, bring all the mortal wound things you can. My Orks are 6 points each and I bring lots of them.  (Q: What's ultraviolent and and pull your wizards arms and legs off before breakfast? A: Orks! )

 

I would agree that things that generate Mortal Wounds should cost more especially if they are reliable.

I would also say this seems to be an issue more for competitive players than people like myself.

[justicarius6]

Mortal wounds, with how easy they are to generate at the moment should either have to roll to wound (either fixed strength or fixed roll) and ignore saves, or auto-wound but allow saves.

 

They're simply too powerful and too frustrating (taking away all player agency is horrible) right now.

Edited February 12, 2018 by justicarius6

[Tamiel]

I don't want 40k to become "PsykerHammer".

Edited February 12, 2018 by Tamiel

[Helycon]

I feel mortal wounds are fine when not spammed and most people have already stated that as the main problem: people spam them when they can do so cheaply. 

 

MW from themselves are great: they reward good positioning and punish bad positioning. It's a neat idea when you can hurt something that can otherwise be difficult to damage, let alone kill. It's no longer fun when it gets out of hand and it becomes the main weapon for an army, simply because they CAN. Most armies pay a premium for units that can deal mortal wounds, or have very specific requirements, ie. roll a 6 to wound with a limited amount of attacks. It's not reliable but cool when it happens. When it always happens, it's bad and people will spam it. Another way it should be done, is paying CP's for it. I very much like the Dark Angel options with a heavy bolter, a missile launcher against a fly-keyword unit, when scout bikers fall back, or when a character can be targeted by a Black Knight with a grenade launcher. They are VERY specific and cost you something else too: your regular shooting. Doing all of them costs you 4 CP, which is a lot. You need to roll to hit for all of them and therefore still have a chance to fail, like smite. They are a lot more limited, however, which is the good part. 

 

I would vastly prefer it if most of the MW's were generated this way. Limited use, lucky rolls on specific hits or wounds, some psychic powers. 

 

And to whoever stated that the codexes have powercreep: The ones in the middle are currently the biggest outliers. The first ones are a bit on the weaker side, with a rampup to the middle, and a slight decrease at the end. The latter ones feel pretty good most of the time. I can't speak for TS and Daemons yet though. 

[ERJAK]

I've long had the nagging thought that he successor to 7th Editions 'D' Weapons are a problem.  That they are simply too good, versus everything.

 

Last nights game sealed the deal for me and now I'm convinced that Mortal Wounds are a problem.  And the proposed Beta rule for Smite is not an adequate solution.  It's treating a symptom, and not the actual problem itself.

 

The ability to generate Mortal Wounds, globally, not just from Smite, is simply too great for the their potency in game.

 

Last night I faced a team opponent of Nids and TSons.  I had to face Biovores, Malenthropes, Zoanthropes, Ahriman, an Exalted Sorcerer, and a couple of Hellforged Contemptors (Which are a ridiculously broken unit.  24", BS2+ any hit is a Mortal Wound.  Oh look you've kept them in a reroll 1 bubble...).  And the sheer amount of Mortal Wounds I faced was staggering.

 

One of the largest problems surrounding Mortal Wounds is they (like D weapons of old) remove Player Agency.  There is nothing you can do when facing them.  Doesn't matter if you've used durable High Toughness units.  Doesn't matter if you've used Powers or Stratagems to increase Saves or Invulnerable Saves, you simply remove models by the handful.

 

It's another push towards Horde army dominance in 40k, as the only thing you can do is try to stem the tide by getting ultra cheap disposable units targeted and removed instead.  But then things like Biovorses and Hellforged Contemptors can shoot past cheap screens anyway.

 

If Mortal Wounds stay as globally powerful as they currently are, then the ability to spam them needs to be vastly reduced.

 

I hope the balance pass recognises this, and isn't blinded by focusing on Smite as the be all and end all.

That's what you get for not banning forgeworld. They can have their units back in the normal game when they learn how to write halfway decent rules.

[TheFinisher4Ever]

 

 

I've long had the nagging thought that he successor to 7th Editions 'D' Weapons are a problem. That they are simply too good, versus everything.

 

Last nights game sealed the deal for me and now I'm convinced that Mortal Wounds are a problem. And the proposed Beta rule for Smite is not an adequate solution. It's treating a symptom, and not the actual problem itself.

 

The ability to generate Mortal Wounds, globally, not just from Smite, is simply too great for the their potency in game.

 

Last night I faced a team opponent of Nids and TSons. I had to face Biovores, Malenthropes, Zoanthropes, Ahriman, an Exalted Sorcerer, and a couple of Hellforged Contemptors (Which are a ridiculously broken unit. 24", BS2+ any hit is a Mortal Wound. Oh look you've kept them in a reroll 1 bubble...). And the sheer amount of Mortal Wounds I faced was staggering.

 

One of the largest problems surrounding Mortal Wounds is they (like D weapons of old) remove Player Agency. There is nothing you can do when facing them. Doesn't matter if you've used durable High Toughness units. Doesn't matter if you've used Powers or Stratagems to increase Saves or Invulnerable Saves, you simply remove models by the handful.

 

It's another push towards Horde army dominance in 40k, as the only thing you can do is try to stem the tide by getting ultra cheap disposable units targeted and removed instead. But then things like Biovorses and Hellforged Contemptors can shoot past cheap screens anyway.

 

If Mortal Wounds stay as globally powerful as they currently are, then the ability to spam them needs to be vastly reduced.

 

I hope the balance pass recognises this, and isn't blinded by focusing on Smite as the be all and end all.

That's what you get for not banning forgeworld. They can have their units back in the normal game when they learn how to write halfway decent rules.

Forgeworld is not the only problem. GWs Nid codex puts out more mortal wounds than anything FW has, with the exception of pre-nerf Malefic Lords.

[Lysere]

The problem, Lysere, is that Mortal Wounds don't work the way you claim they do.

 

Mortal Wounds are not universally "cast Smite, screw everyone." Sniper Rifles inflict Mortal Wounds on a wound roll of 6. Tyranid electro-guns inflict Mortal Wounds to vehicles on a 4+ to wound.

 

It sounds like your issue isn't with Mortal Wounds, but with Smite.

 

Smite is only one part of it. Spore minds cause mortals wounds on anything but a 1, per mine. Soul burner weapons do mortal wounds per hit. Things like these are more of the issue than smite to me especially if they go through with the beta rule.

 

In the case of sniper rifles or the elctro guns you mentioned both could be left as is. It's just a matter of changing how other sources work to be more along those lines. Basically if it doesn't currently tie into some sort of wound roll then perhaps it should.

[battle captain corpus]

I'm perfectly fine with Mortal Wounds to be honest. I like the way they work. Sure nothings perfect but this edition of 40K is the closest I've seen to a solid good game for a long time.

 

BCC