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Balancing 40K


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#251
Schlitzaf

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Then we just go back to days of if your gonna see an allied force. It’s always gonna be Cadia/Catachan/etc. The Faction traits are rarely breaking onto themselves and help define the army. Vostroyans having +6 Range and Metallica advance + shoot, if it came down to it. I’d live without. But I am happy for once my Vostroyans are actually mechanically Vostroyans and feel different than Cadian not just look different
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#252
Mileposter

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Then we just go back to days of if your gonna see an allied force. It’s always gonna be Cadia/Catachan/etc. The Faction traits are rarely breaking onto themselves and help define the army. Vostroyans having +6 Range and Metallica advance + shoot, if it came down to it. I’d live without. But I am happy for once my Vostroyans are actually mechanically Vostroyans and feel different than Cadian not just look different


I'd posit that this is a positive thing - if you feel thus strongly about your Vostroyans, then you'll make them your primary and any allies will be auxiliaries as proposed.

It's my opinion that you should feel that attached to your force and its identity. THAT, above all else, is what promotes mono armies.

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#253
Beta galactosidase

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The fourth edition space marine codex was the first one with chapter rules. Prior to that there were some rules in white dwarf for the first foundings, but I never saw anyone use them.

The Guard had two codexes in third edition and the second one was the first of any codex to have make your own doctrines.
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#254
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But sense I started playing (allying) my Vostroyans in 5th (Apoc), they have always been an allied force. And there was no reason I couldn’t use any other models, nothing made them Vostroyan. Let alone a unique force. They simply provided my armies anchor sense thematically I dislike using Marines as back field campers. Now as they provide the backfield camping, they have that 6” longer range which makes my guns feel better quality and remind me of my Intercessors. Whose weaponry is made/designed by a Magos. And the Vostroyans have heavy ties to the Admech. So the quality of Admech design shows in my Vostroyan Weaponry, and makes the force feel like it belongs in the same universe.

My Metallica less so, I just added them in Decmember to replace Bike Squads. Because I hate having Marines run Perimeter duty. It feels unbefitting. But being able to advance and shoot each turn, makes the army feel like it racing to keep up my Marines. While monitoring the Primaris by afar. While also marching forward to the enemy without any sign of fear or cowardice. And while my Marines roar forward and blaze a path with flame, my Skitarri as they charge provide constant and drilled covering fire. Showing the difference.

Unironically rerolling charge has grown on me a lot. My Templars are the force for me that least needs it. Because my identity and imagination with that chapter is tied to Crusader Squads and what that unit represents. But rerolling charges showcases our zeal to get stuck in
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#255
Gentlemanloser

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So if you limit CP use to the main faction, how do things like Khurovs Aquilla work?

GK main, 120 point Guard Supreme Command with 3 Tempestor Primes.

Spend The 1CP from supreme comnand on Extra Armory for the Aquilla.

Can't use that CP on strats anyway.
QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#256
Mileposter

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So if you limit CP use to the main faction, how do things like Khurovs Aquilla work?

GK main, 120 point Guard Supreme Command with 3 Tempestor Primes.

Spend The 1CP from supreme comnand on Extra Armory for the Aquilla.

Can't use that CP on strats anyway.


In my suggestion, it's limiting Stratagems AND Relics AND Bonuses to the main faction. So, in your example, if your Warlord is from the Grey Knights - there isn't a Khurovs Aquilla.
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#257
Captain Idaho

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So if you limit CP use to the main faction, how do things like Khurovs Aquilla work?GK main, 120 point Guard Supreme Command with 3 Tempestor Primes.Spend The 1CP from supreme comnand on Extra Armory for the Aquilla.Can't use that CP on strats anyway.

In my suggestion, it's limiting Stratagems AND Relics AND Bonuses to the main faction. So, in your example, if your Warlord is from the Grey Knights - there isn't a Khurovs Aquilla.

I like this method but I'd also encourage costs per formation from a set pool of Command Points. Say 3 per 500pts, then a Battalion costs 3, a Brigade costs 1 etc.

Then we can control people doing horrible shenanigans more.

#258
Crimson Ghost IX

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Still thinking giving everybody more base cp at the build stage is a good idea and eases many of these issues most fairly.

 

+3-6 more or so for around 9-12 base before detachments kick in for everyone. Suppose it could scale at 1 per 250 pts or something for the base points.

Seems almost everybody feels somewhat starved for them and some are inclined to getting them by all means possible already.

 

I think GW will be doing something to give everyone more points eventually myself, but that is just my speculation as it seems a likely way for them to go.

Looking at what strats cost to use and do already and figuring more will be coming etc.

 

Strats and therefore Relics are only usable from the same book as the warlord seems likely to me for matched play.

I think warlord must be from the detachment that costs the most points in your army is also perhaps likely for matched play.


Edited by Crimson Ghost IX, 21 February 2018 - 12:51 PM.


#259
NatBrannigan

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Couldn't you just limit who can use which CP's?

 

CP's generated by a Guard detachment can only be used by Guard units

CP's generated by a Marine detachment can only be used by Marine units.

CP's generated by an "Imperium" Faction can be used by Imperium units but then you're missing out on Regiment / Faction traits.

 

That would stop Guard Infantry squads being used as batteries. If you take them to get CP's, you can only use your CP's on them ad other Guard units.



#260
Tyriks

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Couldn't you just limit who can use which CP's?
 
CP's generated by a Guard detachment can only be used by Guard units
CP's generated by a Marine detachment can only be used by Marine units.
CP's generated by an "Imperium" Faction can be used by Imperium units but then you're missing out on Regiment / Faction traits.
 
That would stop Guard Infantry squads being used as batteries. If you take them to get CP's, you can only use your CP's on them ad other Guard units.

This would mean many games have 6 pools to keep track of. That's unnecessary complication. Limiting the stratagems to the Warlord's codex is much simpler.
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#261
Lexington

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That said, I think the simplest solution (i.e., the least effort applied for greatest effect) is a small change in wording for Stratagems, Relics, and Faction bonuses (Regimental Doctrines, Chapter Tactics, etc.). Change the opening lines to "If your army is battleforged and your warlord is from a (CODEX) detachment, you have access to the (THING) listed here...". Leave the rest of the game the way it is. Keep the faction keyword requirement to be Battleforged. Keep the CP assigned to Detachment.


As far as Strategems go, wouldn't this just give us the same problem that was being prominently discussed pre-LVO, where Guard armies can get a practically unlimited number of CP while others are left with very few?

I do like the idea of simply eliminating faction bonuses - they've been really badly implemented in 8th, with some being amazing and others being next to worthless. At the same time, having lived through the transition between the 3.5 and 4th Ed Chaos Codex, the idea of even suggesting that to a wider audience gives me hives...
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#262
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That said, I think the simplest solution (i.e., the least effort applied for greatest effect) is a small change in wording for Stratagems, Relics, and Faction bonuses (Regimental Doctrines, Chapter Tactics, etc.). Change the opening lines to "If your army is battleforged and your warlord is from a (CODEX) detachment, you have access to the (THING) listed here...". Leave the rest of the game the way it is. Keep the faction keyword requirement to be Battleforged. Keep the CP assigned to Detachment.


As far as Strategems go, wouldn't this just give us the same problem that was being prominently discussed pre-LVO, where Guard armies can get a practically unlimited number of CP while others are left with very few?

I do like the idea of simply eliminating faction bonuses - they've been really badly implemented in 8th, with some being amazing and others being next to worthless. At the same time, having lived through the transition between the 3.5 and 4th Ed Chaos Codex, the idea of even suggesting that to a wider audience gives me hives...


Doesn't give that problem - but makes it a Guard problem to adjust (if it even is a problem afterwords, would need to test those interactions) rather than a game problem. Smaller scope, smaller problem, easier adjustment implementation!

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#263
Lexington

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Doesn't give that problem - but makes it a Guard problem to adjust (if it even is a problem afterwords, would need to test those interactions) rather than a game problem. Smaller scope, smaller problem, easier adjustment implementation!


Fair, but it's not just a Guard problem, is it? It's also a Tyranid problem, and will inevitably be an Ork problem soon enough. Hell, if cheap Kroot are still running around in the Tau book, it might well be a problem for them, too. I appreciate the dedication to elegance and simplicity, but this really is a problem with the whole Detachment/CP system, not just one army - units with cheap Troops choices can swamp the board with cheap bodies that generate tesources for tons of force-multiplying Strategems. I think it's a problem that needs to be solved at the source.
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#264
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I agree that it needs to be solved at the source - I merely disagree with the source.

From my point of view, the source is the balance of what Stratagems are available, not the generation of CP. If Space Marines and Grey Knights had actual worth-while and valuable Stratagems, Guard or Tyranid spamming theirs wouldn't feel like such a blow against the game.

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#265
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I agree that it needs to be solved at the source - I merely disagree with the source.

From my point of view, the source is the balance of what Stratagems are available, not the generation of CP. If Space Marines and Grey Knights had actual worth-while and valuable Stratagems, Guard or Tyranid spamming theirs wouldn't feel like such a blow against the game.


GK have at least three really good strategems. Heed the Prognosisticators, Only in Death, and Psybolt. They are expensive though, and quickly eat through GKs 5-8 CPs.

#266
utilityzero

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I think CP and strategems are just one of the biggest short comings of 8th. Because of how they took the place of special rules and how they are unevenly implemented.

But they aren't going anywhere so I feel that they need to at least attempt to balance them. And then deal with soups and CP batteries. I'd say only your primary faction even gets their faction traits and it's based on your warlords faction.

I'd even be ok with some of the bigger factions like IMPERIUM getting a special trait or maybe even obsec just to make certain lists playable.

I don't much care if it screws one or two builds or one codex more than others for a short while. That can be addressed on a case by case basis and is a problem for that army or codex. The CP disparity and soup exploitation are problems with the game to me and should be fixed first. I don't think a single paragraph rules change is ever going to fix that and please everyone.
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#267
Skaorn

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It seems to me

I think CP and strategems are just one of the biggest short comings of 8th. Because of how they took the place of special rules and how they are unevenly implemented.
But they aren't going anywhere so I feel that they need to at least attempt to balance them. And then deal with soups and CP batteries. I'd say only your primary faction even gets their faction traits and it's based on your warlords faction.
I'd even be ok with some of the bigger factions like IMPERIUM getting a special trait or maybe even obsec just to make certain lists playable.
I don't much care if it screws one or two builds or one codex more than others for a short while. That can be addressed on a case by case basis and is a problem for that army or codex. The CP disparity and soup exploitation are problems with the game to me and should be fixed first. I don't think a single paragraph rules change is ever going to fix that and please everyone.


I think they would have been better off going with a generic list of stratagems that everyone had access to. Sure +1 to shooting if you don't move or reroll a failed charge isn't as sexy as some of the codex specific ones but everyone would know them and creep would be diminished.

#268
Lord_Caerolion

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Couldn't you just limit who can use which CP's?
 
CP's generated by a Guard detachment can only be used by Guard units
CP's generated by a Marine detachment can only be used by Marine units.
CP's generated by an "Imperium" Faction can be used by Imperium units but then you're missing out on Regiment / Faction traits.
 
That would stop Guard Infantry squads being used as batteries. If you take them to get CP's, you can only use your CP's on them ad other Guard units.

This would mean many games have 6 pools to keep track of. That's unnecessary complication. Limiting the stratagems to the Warlord's codex is much simpler.

 

 

It's not that particularly hard to do so, though? Warhammer Fantasy used to have to deal with Power dice separately for each Wizard, on top of the random "generic pool" generated each turn. My preferred solution is just "CP's can only be used on stratagems of the same Detachment/Codex, and Relics can only impact CP's used by the same". No taking a tiny force of Guardsmen, just to take the Aquila and refund the points of every other Detachment. Of course, I can see why it's easier to do your method, and don't really have any issue with that either.

 

Personally though, I think what's also needed is another "army rule" for the Astartes. It used to be that Chapter Tactics were the Astartes equivalent to other army-wide rules like the Orders, or Mechanicus Doctrines, etc. Now though, everybody gets their own equivalent of Chapter Tactics, and the Astartes are being left a bit behind.


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#269
Tyriks

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Couldn't you just limit who can use which CP's?
 
CP's generated by a Guard detachment can only be used by Guard units
CP's generated by a Marine detachment can only be used by Marine units.
CP's generated by an "Imperium" Faction can be used by Imperium units but then you're missing out on Regiment / Faction traits.
 
That would stop Guard Infantry squads being used as batteries. If you take them to get CP's, you can only use your CP's on them ad other Guard units.

This would mean many games have 6 pools to keep track of. That's unnecessary complication. Limiting the stratagems to the Warlord's codex is much simpler.
 
It's not that particularly hard to do so, though? Warhammer Fantasy used to have to deal with Power dice separately for each Wizard, on top of the random "generic pool" generated each turn. My preferred solution is just "CP's can only be used on stratagems of the same Detachment/Codex, and Relics can only impact CP's used by the same". No taking a tiny force of Guardsmen, just to take the Aquila and refund the points of every other Detachment. Of course, I can see why it's easier to do your method, and don't really have any issue with that either.
 
Personally though, I think what's also needed is another "army rule" for the Astartes. It used to be that Chapter Tactics were the Astartes equivalent to other army-wide rules like the Orders, or Mechanicus Doctrines, etc. Now though, everybody gets their own equivalent of Chapter Tactics, and the Astartes are being left a bit behind.
Warhammer Fantasy also failed, so I'm not sure we should try to emulate it. With that many pools I think we would just have to start keeping track with pen and paper, which I would rather avoid. Wouldn't be impossible at all, just inconvenient.

#270
Lord_Caerolion

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Well, the power dice pool wasn't exactly up there in reasons why it failed, if it contributed at all. That would more be the far more involved Movement phase, rules bloat, and the frankly shocking balance issues towards the end. Even so, point taken.


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#271
Captain Idaho

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I actually like army specific Stratagems. It's great fun. 40K 8th is great fun.

I just want the games little bugs (And I don't mean Termagants) squashed.

I don't think it takes much to fix things. Smite spam was done in a single rule amendment. Character spam is part of the Detachment issues and can be amended by simply removing the Supreme Command Detachment from matched play or having it cost CPs to field.

Stuff like that are easy fixes and will work.

Nothing fundamental has to change and expecting massive changes won't get GW to notice the problem in my eyes. Small and easy fix and it'll likely work.

Edited by Captain Idaho, Yesterday, 12:13 PM.

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#272
utilityzero

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I think limiting players to a single primary faction for warlords and traits and strategems would help a lot to cut back on soup abuse. And maybe also a set number of CP instead of by detachment. Or go to a flat bonus across all detachments. Those aren't huge changes really but they'd make a big difference. I know a lot of people don't want to limit players choices but you can't have balance without some sort of limitations. If you want a game without them play narrative. Otherwise it can't be anything goes.
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#273
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Or maybe just add +1 to the CP cost of all Stratagems that aren't default ones, or Stratagems used by the Warlords faction? It seems a little arbitrary that Space Marines would lose out on their Auspexes because the overall commander is from a different Chapter, for example, but it'll make it harder to take an Astra Militarum Warlord to spam CPs, but then have the bulk of the army be Astartes, etc.


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