Doombreed vs Angron feats?

[Moonreaper666]

Based on their feats who is the more powerful Daemon Prince of Khorne? Who would win in a duel?

 

How heavily defended was the Forge World that Doombreed single handedly destroyed during the Horus Heresy?

[Raulmichile]

Old lore refered Doombreed as the most powerful DP of all Khorne Daemons. There is the misconception that Daemnon Primarchs are the most powerful of all because they are Primarchs to begin with, and this is not necessarily true.

[Marshal Loss]

I think the real question is if 'what if the Blood Gorgons were there'

[Stormxlr]

I think the real question is if 'what if the Blood Gorgons were there'

How come?what are you referencing

[helterskelter]

 

I think the real question is if 'what if the Blood Gorgons were there'

How come?what are you referencing

About a dozen or so previous what if? threads.

 

Angron basically ate Armageddon, and another couple of really angry crusades.

[Walter Payton]

Angron's big achievements post-ascension are:

 

- The Dominion of Fire (taking five hundred planets from the Imperium with an army of 50,000 berserkers).

- The First War for Armageddon (although he ultimately lost, despite inflicting enormous casualties on the Grey Knights).

 

Doombreed's big achievements are:

 

- Personally fought the Emperor alongside N'kar

- Wiped out the Warhawks and Venerators during the 5th Black Crusade

- Being one of the first humans raised to daemonhood.

- Annoying Mephiston a bit.

 

 

Old lore refered Doombreed as the most powerful DP of all Khorne Daemons. There is the misconception that Daemnon Primarchs are the most powerful of all because they are Primarchs to begin with, and this is not necessarily true.

 

Incidentally, I strongly suspect that this is going to be retconned so that the daemon Primarchs are the most powerful daemon princes.

[Khornestar]

I didn’t pay much attention to the CSM or daemons codices; is Doombreed even mentioned?

[Marshal Loss]

I didn’t pay much attention to the CSM or daemons codices; is Doombreed even mentioned?

 

Doombreed is mentioned in the timeline, under the 5th Black Crusade

[Moonreaper666]

Angron's big achievements post-ascension are:

 

- The Dominion of Fire (taking five hundred planets from the Imperium with an army of 50,000 berserkers).

- The First War for Armageddon (although he ultimately lost, despite inflicting enormous casualties on the Grey Knights).

 

Doombreed's big achievements are:

 

- Personally fought the Emperor alongside N'kar

- Wiped out the Warhawks and Venerators during the 5th Black Crusade

- Being one of the first humans raised to daemonhood.

- Annoying Mephiston a bit.

 

 

 

Old lore refered Doombreed as the most powerful DP of all Khorne Daemons. There is the misconception that Daemnon Primarchs are the most powerful of all because they are Primarchs to begin with, and this is not necessarily true.

Incidentally, I strongly suspect that this is going to be retconned so that the daemon Primarchs are the most powerful daemon princes.

 

I doubt it

 

Name one Daemon Primarch that can eradicate everyone in a Forge World in a SINGLE DAY ON HIS OWN!?!

 

And this was during the Heresy, when Baneblades are cheap like McDonalds!

 

I don't get why Doombreed was on the Vengeful Spirjt, he should be on Terra assaulting the Palace!

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

According to the latest CSM Codex, the Dominion of Fire has Angron overrunning 70 SECTORS in 2 centuries, with the Imperium taking about 3,000 years to retake 90% of it. For reference, this would be the equivalent of Macharius not dying at the end of his crusade and continuing on at about the same pace for 2 centuries, and the fact that GW hasn't written anything more than a paragraph about this is a damned travesty. As far as military conquests go, this seems a bit more impressive than taking a single forge world, even if it was in a day (in retrospect Armageddon seems like it's barely worth mentioning compared to this).

 

As for one on one- who knows? Probably would depend on who was writing them.

[Khornestar]

Hell yeah, Optimvus. I wish we had more info about it.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

Angron's big achievements post-ascension are:

 

- The Dominion of Fire (taking five hundred planets from the Imperium with an army of 50,000 berserkers).

- The First War for Armageddon (although he ultimately lost, despite inflicting enormous casualties on the Grey Knights).

 

Doombreed's big achievements are:

 

- Personally fought the Emperor alongside N'kar

- Wiped out the Warhawks and Venerators during the 5th Black Crusade

- Being one of the first humans raised to daemonhood.

- Annoying Mephiston a bit.

 

Old lore refered Doombreed as the most powerful DP of all Khorne Daemons. There is the misconception that Daemnon Primarchs are the most powerful of all because they are Primarchs to begin with, and this is not necessarily true.

Incidentally, I strongly suspect that this is going to be retconned so that the daemon Primarchs are the most powerful daemon princes.

 

I doubt it

 

Name one Daemon Primarch that can eradicate everyone in a Forge World in a SINGLE DAY ON HIS OWN!?!

 

And this was during the Heresy, when Baneblades are cheap like McDonalds!

 

I don't get why Doombreed was on the Vengeful Spirjt, he should be on Terra assaulting the Palace!

 

 

You're also trying to say in another thread though, that Daemon Angron and Fulgrim would be able to kill "millions of guardsmen and entire Loyalist Legions" at the Siege of Terra, so according to your own logic, Angron should be capable of taking out a much less defended Forge World single-handedly. He is, again by your logic, part of the "most powerful and unkillable" of the Traitor Primarchs.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

 

Angron's big achievements post-ascension are:

 

- The Dominion of Fire (taking five hundred planets from the Imperium with an army of 50,000 berserkers).

- The First War for Armageddon (although he ultimately lost, despite inflicting enormous casualties on the Grey Knights).

 

Doombreed's big achievements are:

 

- Personally fought the Emperor alongside N'kar

- Wiped out the Warhawks and Venerators during the 5th Black Crusade

- Being one of the first humans raised to daemonhood.

- Annoying Mephiston a bit.

 

Old lore refered Doombreed as the most powerful DP of all Khorne Daemons. There is the misconception that Daemnon Primarchs are the most powerful of all because they are Primarchs to begin with, and this is not necessarily true.

Incidentally, I strongly suspect that this is going to be retconned so that the daemon Primarchs are the most powerful daemon princes.

I doubt it

 

Name one Daemon Primarch that can eradicate everyone in a Forge World in a SINGLE DAY ON HIS OWN!?!

 

And this was during the Heresy, when Baneblades are cheap like McDonalds!

 

I don't get why Doombreed was on the Vengeful Spirjt, he should be on Terra assaulting the Palace!

You're also trying to say in another thread though, that Daemon Angron and Fulgrim would be able to kill "millions of guardsmen and entire Loyalist Legions" at the Siege of Terra, so according to your own logic, Angron should be capable of taking out a much less defended Forge World single-handedly. He is, again by your logic, part of the "most powerful and unkillable" of the Traitor Primarchs.

Guardsmen are not Skitarii

 

A Forgeworld would have Combat Servitors, Battle Techpriest and Knights to defend it as well

 

 

Adeptus Mechanicus troops are on par or better than Astartes

[Lord_Caerolion]

Better than Astartes? A simple look at the game itself shows that isn't the case, as well as general readings of the background. Why would the Astartes be needed if basic humans with augmetics the Mechanicus can churn out by the billions are a superior force?Also, the Siege of Terra would have had everything you just described, given the Martian hosts seeking refuge on Terra, combined with the Titan Legions defending Terra too. You cannot seriously argue that a Forge World has better defenses than Terra at the time of buildup to the Siege.

[Dagoth Ur]

 

A Forgeworld would have Combat Servitors, Battle Techpriest and Knights to defend it as well

 

Not all Forgeworlds are Knightworlds. Not all Forgeworlds are outfitted with hosts of Knights.

 

 

Adeptus Mechanicus troops are on par or better than Astartes

 

 

Citation required. Last time I checked, an Astartes will flat out murder Skitarii, Tech-Tralls and regular servitors. Now, if we are talking Legio Cybernetica troops, e.g. Castellax Battle Automata (Which have become shunned technology by the Adeptus Mechanicus due to their bellicose and increasingly unstable nature), then sure, but regular Forgeworld troops, e.g. Skitarii and Tech-Thralls, are not better than Space Marines, or even on par. Not as of current depiction and fluff. The only clear advantage they have is numbers.

[Slave to Darkness]

 

I doubt it

 

Name one Daemon Primarch that can eradicate everyone in a Forge World in a SINGLE DAY ON HIS OWN!?!

 

And this was during the Heresy, when Baneblades are cheap like McDonalds!

 

I don't get why Doombreed was on the Vengeful Spirjt, he should be on Terra assaulting the Palace!

 

Any Daemon Primarch can do that if the Author writes it. 

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

A Forgeworld would have Combat Servitors, Battle Techpriest and Knights to defend it as well

Not all Forgeworlds are Knightworlds. Not all Forgeworlds are outfitted with hosts of Knights.

Adeptus Mechanicus troops are on par or better than Astartes

 

Citation required. Last time I checked, an Astartes will flat out murder Skitarii, Tech-Tralls and regular servitors. Now, if we are talking Legio Cybernetica troops, e.g. Castellax Battle Automata (Which have become shunned technology by the Adeptus Mechanicus due to their bellicose and increasingly unstable nature), then sure, but regular Forgeworld troops, e.g. Skitarii and Tech-Thralls, are not better than Space Marines, or even on par. Not as of current depiction and fluff. The only clear advantage they have is numbers.

Doombreed purged the Forgeworld during the Heresy so there were Battle Automatas

 

Aren't Rad weapons common within the Skitarii? Couldn't these weapons destroy tens off thousands of Astartes?

 

I also thought their melee weapons combined with their cyborg strength would tear through Power Armor?

 

Wouldn't the Skitarii be as fast, agile and accurate with their weapons as Astartes?

 

 

In one battle during the Great Crusade, the Iron Warriors lost tens of thousands of Astartes taking a Forge World

 

(I think it was either 15k or 45k)

 

 

I don't have the audio book Dark Compliance. Can somebody list out the defenders of the FW that Doombreed attacked?

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

If a simple augmented human that could be manufactured by the millions could rip through power armor with ease and was as fast, agile, and accurate as Astartes, the Emperor probably wouldn't have even bothered with the Astartes program in the first place...

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

 

A Forgeworld would have Combat Servitors, Battle Techpriest and Knights to defend it as well

Not all Forgeworlds are Knightworlds. Not all Forgeworlds are outfitted with hosts of Knights.

Adeptus Mechanicus troops are on par or better than Astartes

Citation required. Last time I checked, an Astartes will flat out murder Skitarii, Tech-Tralls and regular servitors. Now, if we are talking Legio Cybernetica troops, e.g. Castellax Battle Automata (Which have become shunned technology by the Adeptus Mechanicus due to their bellicose and increasingly unstable nature), then sure, but regular Forgeworld troops, e.g. Skitarii and Tech-Thralls, are not better than Space Marines, or even on par. Not as of current depiction and fluff. The only clear advantage they have is numbers.

Doombreed purged the Forgeworld during the Heresy so there were Battle Automatas

 

Aren't Rad weapons common within the Skitarii? Couldn't these weapons destroy tens off thousands of Astartes?

 

I also thought their melee weapons combined with their cyborg strength would tear through Power Armor?

 

Wouldn't the Skitarii be as fast, agile and accurate with their weapons as Astartes?

 

 

In one battle during the Great Crusade, the Iron Warriors lost tens of thousands of Astartes taking a Forge World

 

(I think it was either 15k or 45k)

 

 

I don't have the audio book Dark Compliance. Can somebody list out the defenders of the FW that Doombreed attacked?

 

 

Angron attacked Terra during the Heresy, so there were Battle Automata where you said he could basically win the war himself.

 

Could rad-weapons do that? Sure. Bolters will also kill tens of thousands of Skitarii too, if not more, so what's your point? Lasguns could kill tens of thousands of both Skitarii and Astartes, if there's enough of them. 

 

Tear through power armour? Looking at rules to give us a rough estimate, no. No they cannot. The Automata could, but they're slow, bulky, and comparatively rare, so they'll get shot to pieces.

 

As fast/agile/accurate as Astartes? Well again, looking at rules, the Astartes are better stat-wise, with the Skitarii only sharing the BS4, with Astartes being superior in pretty much all other stats other than Wounds. I'm going to give the advantage to the Astartes here.

 

The Iron Warriors? The Legion infamous for taking horrific losses to achieve their victories through siege warfare? The got stuff done, but they had a horrifically high mortality rate in basically all their campaigns, but their focus was on basically annihilating all trace of their enemies. The other Legions could possibly have gotten the job done with a fraction of the casualties with spearhead assaults against the ruling Magi. Also, that figure conveniently ignores how many defending forces were killed. Did 45k Iron Warriors die to capture a Forge World, but kill 5 million Skitarii during the campaign? I doubt the Iron Warriors took more casualties than they dealt.

 

 

Lastly, again, if the Skitarii were more effective than Astartes, and could be created by getting a basic human and giving them some robot bits, why would the Imperium have ever bothered with the Astartes? Why bother with the geneseed implantation into pre-pubescent children, the resource-intensive power armour etc, when making them half-servitors made from random prisoners was a superior end result?

 

Please, provide some sources that show Skitarii as more effective 1v1 when fighting Astartes. Not just one-sided casualty reports from a Legion known for taking high casualties and ignoring what we actually know about the game.

[Tyriks]

Forges of Mars has a high ranking tech priest specializing in close combat lose a fight to the youngest Space Marine present. To be fair, it was a stupid fight meant to show off the prowess of a marine, but still very clear. Edited February 15, 2018 by Tyriks

[Lord_Caerolion]

Also, the argument could be made that Astartes are actually resistant to rad-weapons, given that they have the Melanchrome organ, which protects against severe radiation?