Adeptus Custodes FW beta rules

[Ishagu]

The Calidius WAS that, in 7th edition HH rules.

The Custodes don't need that, they need dedicated anti tank and ranged fire support units.

 

I think the weapon profile is fine. Maybe you're right, let it ignore modifiers on flying vehicles, but I wouldn't neuter it into something only capable of dealing with light transports. The Custodes themselves can cut those up.

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

I can tell you didn't read what I said Ish. The caladius is a high durability anti skimmer platform. It's not a gunboat; it doesn't reliably one shot heavy tanks or now down units.

 

If you hit and wounded every time (not unlikely next to valoris with my proposed changes) you do an average of 12 wounds. That's pretty solid. Maybe it could have an additional point of AP from heliothermic.

 

If you shot hellblasters theyd hit half the time at best (hello raven guard, alaitoc, alpha legion banners, strats etc) and explode on the majority of misses. You would overcharge them and ergo do way less

 

Your scenarios are fairly outrageous. Parking Valoris next to a tank with only str8 guns? In the back field? Why? He's better near a squad of wardens or Allarus by a mile.

 

Double layering plasma hellblasters with reroll 1s for hit and wound means very few of those shots miss certainly not half. Heck using what's his face Samuel for reroll all misses IS actually worth leaving him in mid field with them. You are talking about facing two armies with to hit shenanigans not even facing us Custodes.

 

I like the volume of shots. It does need damage 2 though. This thing fires rounds the size of a marines fist bigger, and bigger than a leviathan.

[CCE1981]

Found out while watching a British youtuber the plasma flamer ( forgot the name) was Str 6 on the British site and Str 7 on the US site.

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

Can anyone else think of any other glaring changes besides my earlier list? I would love for the dreads to drop in price and go up one str but that seems to be a blanket issue with dreads being over costed next to troops plaguing gw and fw.

 

 

As reminder here it is:

 

Caladius and Coronus need a flat 5++. Both drop between 35 to 50 points.

 

Caladius needs flat damage 2 on the guns and possibly to either ignore hard to hit, or not take shooting penalty.

 

Coronus needs 2d6 shots on the blaze.

 

Dreads both need 15 to 25 point drop and the Achillus dread needs flamers added to wargear change out.

 

Achillus needs the death rays with same profile as imperial space marine but 2 shots instead of 1. That or just make the death rays plasma ejectors.

 

Damage on twin las pulsar should be flat 3.

[Dulahan]

I'm confused about the Achillus needing the deathray option.  What's wrong with the Lastrum Storm Bolter?  Because Str 5, AP -1, Rapid Fire 2 (and having 2 of them at that) is pretty nice!

 

And the spear's shooting profile is pretty saucy as well.

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

I'm confused about the Achillus needing the deathray option. What's wrong with the Lastrum Storm Bolter? Because Str 5, AP -1, Rapid Fire 2 (and having 2 of them at that) is pretty nice!

 

And the spear's shooting profile is pretty saucy as well.

Is having more options...bad? As long as its pointed accordingly.

[Charlo]

I'm confused about the Achillus needing the deathray option. What's wrong with the Lastrum Storm Bolter? Because Str 5, AP -1, Rapid Fire 2 (and having 2 of them at that) is pretty nice!

 

And the spear's shooting profile is pretty saucy as well.

Because it's on the model :D

 

All the tanks should have machine spirit no hit modifiers rule, because they do in 30k and are supposed to be the pinnacle.

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

 

I'm confused about the Achillus needing the deathray option. What's wrong with the Lastrum Storm Bolter? Because Str 5, AP -1, Rapid Fire 2 (and having 2 of them at that) is pretty nice!

 

And the spear's shooting profile is pretty saucy as well.

Because it's on the model :D

 

All the tanks should have machine spirit no hit modifiers rule, because they do in 30k and are supposed to be the pinnacle.

Will add. Whats the worst they can say? No? Lol

 

 

Caladius and Coronus need a flat 5++. Both drop between 35 to 50 points.

 

Caladius needs flat damage 2 on the guns and possibly to either ignore hard to hit, or not take shooting penalty. Add machine spirit.

 

Coronus needs 2d6 shots on the blaze, add machine spirit.

 

Dreads both need 15 to 25 point drop and the Achillus dread needs flamers added to wargear change out.

 

Achillus needs the death rays with same profile as imperial space marine but 2 shots instead of 1. That or just make the death rays plasma ejectors. Points costs 40 each gun for death rays? (Anyone know how much the imperial space marine pays for his guns?)

 

Damage on twin las pulsar should be flat 3.

[TheHarpDaddy]

I’d really like the Flare Shields to match the 30k equivalent, with a -1 strength applying instead of an invulnerable save. I also have a feeling the 6+++ is spiking the price on this thing heaps, so if they dropped that off I’d be pretty keen on finding out how many points the unit would decrease. Not sure how much the entire model should drop but I think paying around 350pts for a resilent transport with the -1 str flare shields would be a pretty good buy. And custodes really need a resilient transport right now!!

 

Also they *really* need to remove the “limit one per Detachment” restriction... It’s going to be really difficult to grab 2 in a pure custodes army if they keep this restriction in place, which is a shame considering you can get multiple land raiders/storm ravens etc.

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

I’d really like the Flare Shields to match the 30k equivalent, with a -1 strength applying instead of an invulnerable save. I also have a feeling the 6+++ is spiking the price on this thing heaps, so if they dropped that off I’d be pretty keen on finding out how many points the unit would decrease. Not sure how much the entire model should drop but I think paying around 350pts for a resilent transport with the -1 str flare shields would be a pretty good buy. And custodes really need a resilient transport right now!!

 

Also they *really* need to remove the “limit one per Detachment” restriction... It’s going to be really difficult to grab 2 in a pure custodes army if they keep this restriction in place, which is a shame considering you can get multiple land raiders/storm ravens etc.

 

A lot of people seem split on if the flare is better as a 5++ or -1 str. Being -1 means missile launcher equivalent need 5s and las cannons need 4s. Is that better than getting a save against them?

[TheFinisher4Ever]

I agree on the Flare Shield needing to be a 5++ if they want to keep it as a save. The 6++ seems very weak, especially compared to how strong it was in the fluff and in 7th. A 6++ is really only useful against  melta, and even then it only gives you a 1/6 chance to save a wound. It will rarely come up and will even more rarely be successful. Personally, Id like to see it return to -1 Strength as well or instead. Far more interesting mechanic while not being nearly as good in 8th as it was in 7th. The -1 strength will be comparable or better than a 5++ unless the opponent is rerolling wounds ala Guilliman.

 

Caladius needing flat 2 damage is also something I would like to see. It is similar to an autocannon and should share that similarity. Also agree with adding PotMS. Considering that the Custodes vehicles should more advanced than the Space Marine vehicles, its silly for the marines to get PotMS and not the Custodes.

 

I think the 1d6 shots on the Coronus was honestly just a mistake so I will certainly add that. Same with the Heavy Flamers on the Achillus (though I will never trade out the fantastic Lastrum Storm Bolters for the ok Heavy Flamers.)

 

I think we should refrain from telling them which weapons or options to add to units. They already told us they will be adding more options. And our reasonable suggestions will be more aptly received if we leave off the wish listing.

 

The Twin Las Pulsar being damage 3 seems really strong for the price. A Twin Lascannon has the same strength and AP, but d6 damage and costs 50 points. For 10 more points, you get between 1-4 additional shots but half the damage. If it was flat 3, I think the price would have to go up. 6 flat 3 damage shots can put out 18 wounds in a single shooting phase with slightly above average rolls. That seems really strong. How about keeping d3 damage but making a 1 count as a 2? So you'd do 2 or 3 damage.

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

I agree on the Flare Shield needing to be a 5++ if they want to keep it as a save. The 6++ seems very weak, especially compared to how strong it was in the fluff and in 7th. A 6++ is really only useful against melta, and even then it only gives you a 1/6 chance to save a wound. It will rarely come up and will even more rarely be successful. Personally, Id like to see it return to -1 Strength as well or instead. Far more interesting mechanic while not being nearly as good in 8th as it was in 7th. The -1 strength will be comparable or better than a 5++ unless the opponent is rerolling wounds ala Guilliman.

 

Caladius needing flat 2 damage is also something I would like to see. It is similar to an autocannon and should share that similarity. Also agree with adding PotMS. Considering that the Custodes vehicles should more advanced than the Space Marine vehicles, its silly for the marines to get PotMS and not the Custodes.

 

I think the 1d6 shots on the Coronus was honestly just a mistake so I will certainly add that. Same with the Heavy Flamers on the Achillus (though I will never trade out the fantastic Lastrum Storm Bolters for the ok Heavy Flamers.)

 

I think we should refrain from telling them which weapons or options to add to units. They already told us they will be adding more options. And our reasonable suggestions will be more aptly received if we leave off the wish listing.

 

The Twin Las Pulsar being damage 3 seems really strong for the price. A Twin Lascannon has the same strength and AP, but d6 damage and costs 50 points. For 10 more points, you get between 1-4 additional shots but half the damage. If it was flat 3, I think the price would have to go up. 6 flat 3 damage shots can put out 18 wounds in a single shooting phase with slightly above average rolls. That seems really strong. How about keeping d3 damage but making a 1 count as a 2? So you'd do 2 or 3 damage.

 

I'm down with most of this where do you see the total points for the tanks ending up with those changes?

 

 

The reason for flat damage is to remove more random rolls. I would legit rather have the las pulsar do 2d than d3. If you think it needs more points that's fine by me.

[TheHarpDaddy]

 

I’d really like the Flare Shields to match the 30k equivalent, with a -1 strength applying instead of an invulnerable save. I also have a feeling the 6+++ is spiking the price on this thing heaps, so if they dropped that off I’d be pretty keen on finding out how many points the unit would decrease. Not sure how much the entire model should drop but I think paying around 350pts for a resilent transport with the -1 str flare shields would be a pretty good buy. And custodes really need a resilient transport right now!!

Also they *really* need to remove the “limit one per Detachment” restriction... It’s going to be really difficult to grab 2 in a pure custodes army if they keep this restriction in place, which is a shame considering you can get multiple land raiders/storm ravens etc.

A lot of people seem split on if the flare is better as a 5++ or -1 str. Being -1 means missile launcher equivalent need 5s and las cannons need 4s. Is that better than getting a save against them?

If I just do some super quick math (which will probably be a little incorrect), and use 20 las cannons firing at BS4.

 

-1 str flare shields:

10 hits, 5 wounds, 4.35 wounds after 6+ armour save, 15.225 damage, and after the 6+++ you’re getting around 13 damage.

 

5++ flare shields:

10 hits, 6.6 wounds, 4.36 wounds after 5++ armour save.... etc. etc. etc.

 

So it’s almost exactly the same, however the -1 strength is a super cool mechanic AND has a greater impact on more weaponry in 8th edition.

[MARK0SIAN]

In the example above the two profiles are only the same result for the coronus. The -1str is decidedly worse for the caladius in that example than the invulnerable save because the caladius is only T7

 

If I had to choose between the flare shield giving a flat 5++ or -1 to strength I would go with the 5++ every time. The -1 to strength will only make a difference to strength 7, 8 and 4 weapons. Lascannons for example would be unaffected by it. Whereas a 5++ would be useful against AP-3 or greater.

 

The other thing to remember is that the 30k era flare shield’s -1 to strength only applies to shooting attacks. There’s a chance that if we wanted the same effect from the flare shield they might also make it only apply to shooting attacks in 8th edition.

 

An alternative idea could be for the flare shield to stay at 6++ but halve the damage of successful wounds or some other mechanic if we wanted avoid it just being a fancy name for a 5++

 

Whatever the answer, the caladius should definitely have power of the machine spirit.

[Ishagu]

A 5++ is preferable simply because it's easy to remember and removes slow dice modifying mechanics. Also it's in keeping with the rest of the army.

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

Sounds like 5++ is a more streamlined mechanic. I did try a game with the -1 to str. It is interesting but honestly just one more gimmick that a invul takes care of.

 

What are thoughts on the 6+++?

 

Need it, hate it? Chuck it in the bin? Good enough against mortal wounds?

[Ishagu]

The 6+ FNP is fine. Just in keeping with other "venerable" vehicles

[SkimaskMohawk]

The Calidius WAS that, in 7th edition HH rules.

The Custodes don't need that, they need dedicated anti tank and ranged fire support units.

 

I think the weapon profile is fine. Maybe you're right, let it ignore modifiers on flying vehicles, but I wouldn't neuter it into something only capable of dealing with light transports. The Custodes themselves can cut those up.

 

Yea, nothing else got its roll shifted buddy, check out the sicaran. Dedicated anti tank is from the gyrfalcons, telemons and pallas to some extent, its on its way 

 

 

I can tell you didn't read what I said Ish. The caladius is a high durability anti skimmer platform. It's not a gunboat; it doesn't reliably one shot heavy tanks or now down units.

 

If you hit and wounded every time (not unlikely next to valoris with my proposed changes) you do an average of 12 wounds. That's pretty solid. Maybe it could have an additional point of AP from heliothermic.

 

If you shot hellblasters theyd hit half the time at best (hello raven guard, alaitoc, alpha legion banners, strats etc) and explode on the majority of misses. You would overcharge them and ergo do way less

 

Your scenarios are fairly outrageous. Parking Valoris next to a tank with only str8 guns? In the back field? Why? He's better near a squad of wardens or Allarus by a mile.

 

Double layering plasma hellblasters with reroll 1s for hit and wound means very few of those shots miss certainly not half. Heck using what's his face Samuel for reroll all misses IS actually worth leaving him in mid field with them. You are talking about facing two armies with to hit shenanigans not even facing us Custodes.

 

I like the volume of shots. It does need damage 2 though. This thing fires rounds the size of a marines fist bigger, and bigger than a leviathan.

 

 

you're totally right, I forgot that the Caladius is immobile and that Str 8 guns are lowest strength ranged weapon we have access to. Nevermind, it moves 16" with fly to keep up with your advance, and that there's only 4 units with str 9, which is functionally identical except against T8.

 

I have no idea what you're talking about with hits and wounds of 1 rerolling; even full rerolls only grant 13 hits against a -1 modifier. Sammael only grants for ravenwing of which you can't get on hellblaster. I was talking about shooting at medium skimming targets like you would in 7th with my proposed changes, there's no reason why I'd be comparing hellblasters vs custodes or anything else vs custodes.

 

 

 

aladius and Coronus need a flat 5++. Both drop between 35 to 50 points.

 

Caladius needs flat damage 2 on the guns and possibly to either ignore hard to hit, or not take shooting penalty. Add machine spirit.

 

Coronus needs 2d6 shots on the blaze, add machine spirit. 

 

Dreads both need 15 to 25 point drop and the Achillus dread needs flamers added to wargear change out. 

 

Achillus needs the death rays with same profile as imperial space marine but 2 shots instead of 1. That or just make the death rays plasma ejectors. Points costs 40 each gun for death rays? (Anyone know how much the imperial space marine pays for his guns?)

 

Damage on twin las pulsar should be flat 3. 

 

All of the missing weapons says in the designer's notes that it will be added

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

What a rude person. Blocked.

[betrayer41]

Man Custodes players sure are a salty bunch. Im just happy to have acess to those beautiful models!

[Constantine Trajanus Ultor]

Man Custodes players sure are a salty bunch. Im just happy to have acess to those beautiful models!

 

Well, we can only field like 10 models in a 3,000 pt game so we have to be stingy with every point !!! 

 

I agree, the Custodes line is simply gorgeous and the reason I'm back in the game. The Forge World Models just make it even more beautiful ! 

 

[Dulahan]

Man Custodes players sure are a salty bunch. Im just happy to have acess to those beautiful models!

 

It's also "Beta Rules" so now is the right time to be salty in looking for problems.  :)

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think the beta rules would have better results with all the units and Wargear they plan on releasing.

 

How can we say lastrum bolters are the proper cost if the flamers and adrathic weapons haven't been implemented? How do we know if the caladius is doing its job for the correct points if it's job is dictated by turret options? Does the Achillus need more attacks if the galatus gets more attacks but less damage? Will twin pulsars need a set damage stat when there's a unit that can all take them for a potential 18 shots at 3 damage a piece?

 

People have some good ideas for making what we have competitive or worth taking compared to what's out, but we were given 3 stripped units out of potentially 9.

[dtse]

for all this discussion, i just hope you guys are actually feeding it back to GW/FW in a constructive manner so that changes can be made. No point being salty on tihs forum and not telling the people writing the rules.

[Dulahan]

Some of us can discuss because we haven't had a chance to play yet, makes feedback by their requirements kind of hard.  But our discussion in turn gets the people who DO have the time to play to think about it and give the feedback.