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Anti-Tank Tactica

- - - - - Thousand Sons Anti Tank Tactica

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#1
MoGuy

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Join this cabale, brothers and sisters. Let us pool our knowledge as to better smite our enemies!

 

Looking at our arsenal of weapons it becomes quite obvious that we are very capable at demolishing MEQs with Inferno Bolters, Tzaangor Blades and a myriad of other ways. But tanks, vehicles and MCs are a different story. 

 

Neither our Troops nor our Terminators are really effective against those. Glimpsing over to the Death Guard or vanilla CSM we can see that they can take (Combi-)Plasmaguns, Melters, Blightlaunchers etc. in their troop and Terminator units, making them way more flexible.

 

So we have to look for other ways to dispatch of those pesky Leman Russes, Imperial Knights, rigid Ork constructs and Space Marine vehicles.

 

I want to compile our knowledge and experiences with our different anti-tank weapons/units in this thread to get a better understanding of those.

 

I'll start with my humble contribution:

 

(Hellforged) Predator

 

I don't own a normal Predator but instead play a Hellforged variant with a Plasma Destroyer (2D3 S7 AP-3 D2 shots without "Get's Hot") and Lascannon sponsons. Performes well as a tank hunter but is often the first thing to get blown to bits on my opponent's turn. The degrading profile also stings. Which takes me to my favourite AA unit.

 

Helbrute

 

Now that our Exalted Sorcerers provide a re-roll of 1s to-hit a rifleman dread with a Missile Launcher and Lascannon combo is very attractive. It is also almost 50 points cheaper than the Predator and never degrades. WIth the Fire Frenzy stratagem, it can also throw out 4 Lascannon and 2 Missile Launcher shots which is more than a Land Raider can shoot. I also like to change out the Lascannon for the Plasmacannon. Most vehicles are T7 so it still wounds on a 3+ and the damage isn't as swingy as on the Lascannon. The nearby Exalted will keep the Helbrute from overheating and even if he does this might trigger his Crazed rule to let him shoot again.

It is paramount however, that you take at least two Helbrutes since they aren't that tanky.

 

Maulerfiend

 

Love the model. As with anything that needs to cross the field to get into CC you need to run this beast either in pairs or with other CC distractions (like the Mutalith, a CC Helbrute etc.) so that at least one or two of those units make it into close combat. Once there pop the Daemonforge stratagem and enjoy the show as the Maulerfiend rips apart whatever you send it against. I also strongly urge you to take the Lasher Tendrils and NEVER the Magma Cutters. The former not only look more badass they also help the fiend to dispatch infantry while the later is very unreliable with only two shots.

 

Forgefiend

 

In almost any other Legion this might be meh at best. But with our ability to buff it up with Flickering Fire, Prescience and Daemonforge it can put in some serious work! The volume of fire is good enough to deal with MEQs and it can shred tanks!

 

So far these are the units I have tried. Feel free to add your experiences. Maybe some of you can enlighten us on our Forgeworld options?


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#2
Paladin777

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I have had good experiences with auto/lascannon predators and will keep using them.

#3
sfPanzer

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I'd advise against the Maulerfiend as your main means of anti-tank. Not just that it has to cross the board, it's also completely incapable of getting through horde unit screens so it will always need help from another source in your army to do its job.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.

 

So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

 

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#4
Minsc

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Large enough units of Tzaangors, Rubricae and Scarab Occult Terminators (especially with HMR's) are pretty decent at killing vehicles if you give them VotLW.

 

30 Tzaangors deal 10 wounds to a T7 3+ hull, 12,5 wounds with +1 to hit.

10 Rubricae with a SRC deal 4,9 wounds to a T7 3+ hull, 6,1 wounds with +1 to hit.

10 SOT's with 2 SCR's and 2 HRM's deal 12,3 wounds to a T7 3+ hull, 15,4 with +1 to hit.

 

Tzaangor Enlightened with Spears are good can openers, even against T8, and with bows they can easily soften up (or finish off) a vehicle.

I've seen quite afew posters on dakka swearing by Defilers with TL-Lascannons, saying that they (with Daemon Forge and some buffs like Flickering Fire and/or +1 to hit) absolutely wreck.

 

Our Chaos Spawn are also pretty good at dealing with enemy tanks, especially with our Stratagem.

With the Stratagem re-roll and +2 attacks they will (unbuffed) do 7,17 wounds to a Leman Russ.

With the Stratagem re-roll and re-roll to wound they will (unbuffed) do 8,23 wounds to a Leman Russ.

Add in some psychic powers or auras and they can easily one-shot a enemy tank.

 

Daemon Princes are alright at punching tanks as well, assuming they get Diabolic Strenght. With 2 sets of Malefic Talons they will average 7 (6,91) wounds to a Leman Russ.

 

Chaos Vindicators aren't amazing at anti-tank. One Demolisher Canon will on average do 2,6 wounds to a Leman Russ, but they are very cheap at 125 pts each, and people tend to overreact when they see enemy Vindicators and focus fire on them, so it might act as a firemagnet, tanking shots that would otherwise kill our Rubricae and SOT's.



#5
Nym

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I have tried proxying a Defiler last game, and it is indeed way better than a Forgefiend (to the point there's no reason to ever run a Forgefiend again for anti-tank if you have both miniatures...).

 

For 202pts the Defiler gets 2 Lascannons and 1 Battlecannon, as well as 7 S12/16 AP-3 D3/Dd6 attacks and 2 more wounds.

For 195pts the Forgefiend gets 2 Hades autocannons and 1 Ectoplasma cannon with NO close combat power at all.

 

The Defiler has a 48" range and deals 4 damage to a Rhino

The Forgefiend has a 24" range and deals 4,12 damage to a Rhino

 

The Forgefiend is *slightly* better at killing T4 2wounds models out of cover, but this is not something we struggle with...



#6
Paladin777

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So is the general consensus for the defiler a twin lascannon and a scourge? I have one with a havoc launcher and reaper auto from 3rd ed but I still have all my other bits.

#7
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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I have tried proxying a Defiler last game, and it is indeed way better than a Forgefiend (to the point there's no reason to ever run a Forgefiend again for anti-tank if you have both miniatures...).

 

For 202pts the Defiler gets 2 Lascannons and 1 Battlecannon, as well as 7 S12/16 AP-3 D3/Dd6 attacks and 2 more wounds.

For 195pts the Forgefiend gets 2 Hades autocannons and 1 Ectoplasma cannon with NO close combat power at all.

 

The Defiler has a 48" range and deals 4 damage to a Rhino

The Forgefiend has a 24" range and deals 4,12 damage to a Rhino

 

The Forgefiend is *slightly* better at killing T4 2wounds models out of cover, but this is not something we struggle with...

Forgefiend has 36 inch range on the Hades and you can go without the plasma cannon for Daemon Jaws which are at least  4 attacks at Str 6 AP-1, 2 Damage. This comes in at 177. Worse than the Defiler, but cheaper. The only reason I put the Plasma Face on mine is that it looked cool.

 

Also, when operating under penalties to hit (flyers, Alaitoc, etc.), the Hades does some pretty good work with 8 shots, where the Defiler's only going to get 4. Defiler's "spike" damage is better, but the Fiend is more consistent. It's more of an all-rounder, whereas the AT Defiler is a straight up tank crusher and counterassault unit.

 

I personally field one of each with no issues.



#8
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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Large enough units of Tzaangors, Rubricae and Scarab Occult Terminators (especially with HMR's) are pretty decent at killing vehicles if you give them VotLW.

 

30 Tzaangors deal 10 wounds to a T7 3+ hull, 12,5 wounds with +1 to hit.

10 Rubricae with a SRC deal 4,9 wounds to a T7 3+ hull, 6,1 wounds with +1 to hit.

10 SOT's with 2 SCR's and 2 HRM's deal 12,3 wounds to a T7 3+ hull, 15,4 with +1 to hit.

 

Tzaangor Enlightened with Spears are good can openers, even against T8, and with bows they can easily soften up (or finish off) a vehicle.

I've seen quite afew posters on dakka swearing by Defilers with TL-Lascannons, saying that they (with Daemon Forge and some buffs like Flickering Fire and/or +1 to hit) absolutely wreck.

 

Our Chaos Spawn are also pretty good at dealing with enemy tanks, especially with our Stratagem.

With the Stratagem re-roll and +2 attacks they will (unbuffed) do 7,17 wounds to a Leman Russ.

With the Stratagem re-roll and re-roll to wound they will (unbuffed) do 8,23 wounds to a Leman Russ.

Add in some psychic powers or auras and they can easily one-shot a enemy tank.

 

Daemon Princes are alright at punching tanks as well, assuming they get Diabolic Strenght. With 2 sets of Malefic Talons they will average 7 (6,91) wounds to a Leman Russ.

 

Chaos Vindicators aren't amazing at anti-tank. One Demolisher Canon will on average do 2,6 wounds to a Leman Russ, but they are very cheap at 125 pts each, and people tend to overreact when they see enemy Vindicators and focus fire on them, so it might act as a firemagnet, tanking shots that would otherwise kill our Rubricae and SOT's.

 

Another thing about the Vindicator....we can keep it alive long enough to fire without much issue (Glamour, Weaver, Temporal Manipulation), where other Legions can't. We can also use Gaze of Fate to reroll bad numbers of shots or a bad damage roll. This also means we can actually have 3 Vindis survive long enough to use Linebreaker Bombardment at least once. Haven't tested it yet, but I think it has at least some promise.



#9
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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So is the general consensus for the defiler a twin lascannon and a scourge? I have one with a havoc launcher and reaper auto from 3rd ed but I still have all my other bits.

Reaper and either Havoc or Scourge is great if you just want to run it upfield and eventually crash into something. Keeps the cost down too. I'd personally go with Scourge.

 

Use the Lascannon if you want to sit in the backfield and blast away until the enemy closes and you need to countercharge.

 

Mine is Reaper/Flamer. Not optimal, but it's been built and painted for a long time and I don't feel like chopping it up.


Edited by GreaterChickenofTzeentch, 13 February 2018 - 11:14 PM.


#10
Nym

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Forgefiend has 36 inch range on the Hades and you can go without the plasma cannon for Daemon Jaws which are at least  4 attacks at Str 6 AP-1, 2 Damage. This comes in at 177. Worse than the Defiler, but cheaper. The only reason I put the Plasma Face on mine is that it looked cool.

 

...

 

 

Also, when operating under penalties to hit (flyers, Alaitoc, etc.), the Hades does some pretty good work with 8 shots, where the Defiler's only going to get 4. Defiler's "spike" damage is better, but the Fiend is more consistent. It's more of an all-rounder, whereas the AT Defiler is a straight up tank crusher and counterassault unit.

 

I only mentionned the minimum range for both, as that's where their damage is optimal.

 

And unfortunately, without the "Plasma face" the Forgefiend is just not worth bringing at all, as you're paying a hefty cost for the monster itself and don't take full advantage of its weapon capacity. With only Hades autocannons, it's probably the worse tank hunter in the whole game as far as damage output is concerned.

 

Even a Vindicator does a better job at killing tanks at this stage... And the Vindicator is regarded as complete trash.



#11
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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Forgefiend has 36 inch range on the Hades and you can go without the plasma cannon for Daemon Jaws which are at least  4 attacks at Str 6 AP-1, 2 Damage. This comes in at 177. Worse than the Defiler, but cheaper. The only reason I put the Plasma Face on mine is that it looked cool.

 

...

 

 

Also, when operating under penalties to hit (flyers, Alaitoc, etc.), the Hades does some pretty good work with 8 shots, where the Defiler's only going to get 4. Defiler's "spike" damage is better, but the Fiend is more consistent. It's more of an all-rounder, whereas the AT Defiler is a straight up tank crusher and counterassault unit.

 

I only mentionned the minimum range for both, as that's where their damage is optimal.

 

And unfortunately, without the "Plasma face" the Forgefiend is just not worth bringing at all, as you're paying a hefty cost for the monster itself and don't take full advantage of its weapon capacity. With only Hades autocannons, it's probably the worse tank hunter in the whole game as far as damage output is concerned.

 

Even a Vindicator does a better job at killing tanks at this stage... And the Vindicator is regarded as complete trash.

 

Can you step through the math on the Defiler vs Forgefiend comparison? Not sure how you got the numbers of wounds done to a Rhino in your example.

 

Thanks.



#12
Nym

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Sure.

 

Defiler gets 2 LasCan shots and d6 (3.5) BattleCannon :

2 LC > 1 hit > 0.66 wound > 0.55 unsaved x 3.5 = 1.94 damage

3.5 BC > 1.75 hit > 1.16 wound > 0.77 unsaved x 2 = 1.55 damage

Total : 3.5 or 1.73 damage / 100pts

 

Forgefiend (with Plasma face) gets 8 Hades shots and d3 (2) Ectoplasma :

8 Hades > 4 hit > 2.66 wound > 1.33 unsaved x 2 = 2.66 damage

2 Ectoplasma > 1 hit > 0.5 wound > 0.41 unsaved x 2 = 0.833 damage

Total : 3.5 or 1.79 damage / 100pts

 

Forgefiend (only Hades) gets 8 Hades shots :

8 Hades > 4 hit > 2.66 wound > 1.33 unsaved x 2 = 2.66 damage

Total : 2.66 or 1,5 damage / 100pts

 

For comparison :

 

Predator with 4 LasCannons :

4 LC > 2.66 hit > 1.77 wound > 1.48 unsaved x 3.5 = 5.18 damage

Total : 5.18 or 2.7 damage / 100pts

 

(a Predator has almost 100% more firepower-per-point than a Forgefiend with only Hades autocannons, but the Forgefiend is only 46% more resistant-per-point against Lascannons and ~16% more resistant against anything with AP-2 or less).


Edited by Nym, 14 February 2018 - 10:15 AM.


#13
Paladin777

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And that does not factor in moving, demon Forge, or other abilities. That being said, if they move both demon engines lose 1/3 of their effective wounds dealt , and the predator only loses one quarter. That being said, demon forge on a stationary plasma face would really deall some pain especially if prescience is cast.

So I guess ultimately the predator is the best when unsupported, but if you’re willing to use additional support like stratagems the demon engines just might be better.

Edited by Paladin777, 14 February 2018 - 12:50 PM.

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#14
Ahzek451

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After reading this thread I tried to look for alternatives in the chaos imperial armour book, but all I keep coming back to are hellforged contemptor dreads and fire raptors. Everything else is either too expensive, outweighed by other options, or does not synergize well. Unless anyone else has found any gems?

#15
The Blood Raven

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Yep, dreads and fire raptors are the best in my experience. I’ve got a trio of decimators and I think they’re around helbrute level of performance.

The dread with the extra armor and grav bombards looks even better but I have no experience with it.

#16
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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Sure.

 

Defiler gets 2 LasCan shots and d6 (3.5) BattleCannon :

2 LC > 1 hit > 0.66 wound > 0.55 unsaved x 3.5 = 1.94 damage

3.5 BC > 1.75 hit > 1.16 wound > 0.77 unsaved x 2 = 1.55 damage

Total : 3.5 or 1.73 damage / 100pts

 

Forgefiend (with Plasma face) gets 8 Hades shots and d3 (2) Ectoplasma :

8 Hades > 4 hit > 2.66 wound > 1.33 unsaved x 2 = 2.66 damage

2 Ectoplasma > 1 hit > 0.5 wound > 0.41 unsaved x 2 = 0.833 damage

Total : 3.5 or 1.79 damage / 100pts

 

Forgefiend (only Hades) gets 8 Hades shots :

8 Hades > 4 hit > 2.66 wound > 1.33 unsaved x 2 = 2.66 damage

Total : 2.66 or 1,5 damage / 100pts

 

For comparison :

 

Predator with 4 LasCannons :

4 LC > 2.66 hit > 1.77 wound > 1.48 unsaved x 3.5 = 5.18 damage

Total : 5.18 or 2.7 damage / 100pts

 

(a Predator has almost 100% more firepower-per-point than a Forgefiend with only Hades autocannons, but the Forgefiend is only 46% more resistant-per-point against Lascannons and ~16% more resistant against anything with AP-2 or less).

Thanks. No argument about the Predator. That unit is far more specialized for this role. I was mostly curious about the two Daemon Engines.

 

Against armor, the Defiler definitely does better. Taking the Fiend might be better if you don't know what you'll be shooting at....but like you said, the rest of our army can do that job. Probably the reason that my Fiend does so well from what I see is the fact that my Defiler's not optimally armed and used most often in close combat, so I haven't seen the comparison in detail until now.



#17
MoGuy

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How do you play the defiler? If it stands in the back and only shoots its melee weapons are dead points. If it moves forward it only hits on 5+ unless you spend a point for blasphemous machines. But then again you would probably want to spend that point on Daemonforge. And spending one or two command points each turn just to make the unit work doesn't seem that good to me.

#18
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After reading this thread I tried to look for alternatives in the chaos imperial armour book, but all I keep coming back to are hellforged contemptor dreads and fire raptors. Everything else is either too expensive, outweighed by other options, or does not synergize well. Unless anyone else has found any gems?

if your looking only for AT then the sicaran venator with two lascannon sponsons might be a good choice - without the heavy bolter and with the damage value of 2d6 (can go up to 3d6 pick the 2 highest), it will on average inflict:

  • 7.481 damage on a rhino, or 3.18 /100 points
  • 6.395 damage on a land raider, or 2.72 /100 points

whereas a 4 lascannons predator would inflict:

  • 5.185 damage on a rhino, or 2.73 /100 points
  • 4.148 damage on a land raider, or 2.18 /100 points

And with 235 points (190 for a pred), it's not super expensive.



#19
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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Hellforged Vindicator Laser Destroyer is another solid choice if I remember correctly (see the FAQ for IA: Forces of Chaos).

 

If you want to add CC to the mix, the Dual Chainclaw, Dual Soulburner Contemptor is horrifying for AT. 2D3 shots with a mortal wound per hit, followed by 5 attacks at Str 14, AP-4, Damage 4. All of this is hitting on 2's, BTW, because the Soulburners are Assault weapons. If you Warptime it, it's hurtling forward at 18 inches.

 

No one wants any of that. smile.png

 

That Contemptor comes to 229 with a Havoc Launcher to help kill/fire over screens. Even if your opponent has tarpits out there, the thing can gunfight at 24 inches, pinging off guaranteed mortal wounds and then charge into the chaff when it takes damage to eat them and gain wounds back. Or you can just have a bolter/soulreaper squad blow a hole for it to rush through.


Edited by GreaterChickenofTzeentch, 14 February 2018 - 06:04 PM.


#20
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I just finished doing some general mathhamer, including the AT efficiency of some weapons available to us (predator, forgefiend, defiler, rubric, contemptor, leviathan, sicaran, hellbrute), but also againsat infantry, should i post it in this thread, or create a new one? Should i post a google docs link or upload it to the forum?



#21
Zodd1888

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I'd start a new post, invite people to request access to edit/dl. I was going to but I'm lazy lol!

#22
Minsc

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I'm up against Steel Legion tomorrow.

2000 pts and I have no real dedicated anti-tank.

Gonna field:

1x Daemon Prince /w Wings, 2x Talons, Helm of the Third Eye.

1x Ahriman on Disc.

 

30x Tzaangors /w Horn. (Webway Infiltration)
25x Tzaangors /w Horn.

10x Rubrics /w Cannon.

1x Tzaangor Shaman

10x Scarab Occult Terminators /w 2 Cannons, 2 Helfyre's.

 

9x Enlightened /w Bows.

5x Spawn

 

1x Mutalith.

For those who don't know, Steel Legion vehicles treats AP1 attacks as AP-.

Guess my Mutalith will have to work overtime to give my Tzaangors AP2, and VotLW will run hot on turn one, once in the shooting phase and once in the fight phase.

 

Wish me luck. tongue.png


Edited by Minsc, 14 February 2018 - 08:41 PM.


#23
Arachnofiend

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If you're not against soup I think a spearhead of Alpha Legion Obliterators might be the best bet. Our Daemon Prince's aura works on them because they're <Tzeentch> <Daemons>, and you can cast Flickering Flames on the unit as well. Taking a 40-man unit of infiltrating cultists can help ensure our deep strike bombs have the space to go where they want to go, too.



#24
Ahzek451

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While not particularly anti-tank, I think this model does more than a heldrake. What do people think about dreadclaws? Another way to deliver rubrics without cp. Or use the webway for tzaangors and pods for marines. Flies in, drops off. If it lives it can fly around and burn multiple units in combat as well as munch things and regain wounds.

Edited by Ahzek451, 14 February 2018 - 09:49 PM.


#25
Sonoftherubric21

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I have had nothing but good things to say about my forgefiend, yes in a vacuum its not as good as a defiler on a 1-1 basis, but frankly my forgefiend with duel hades cannons is cheaper, and outputs more damage then my defiler, except in combat where the defiler is just a monsterous bugger. 

The forgefiend has several advantages over the predator, of course the predator outputs more straight AT damage, but that 5++ invul, and regaining of wounds is just so fantastic on the forgefiend and its bretheren along with having a pip more wounds. (12 to 11) and a 3+/5++ to a 3+, and of course the engines all have the Daemon keyword and access to the Daemonforge strategem just making them wrecking balls in either shooting or melee. 

Them being "mediocre" at base stat means nothing when we can buff them to very large heights.  

I usually nip this debate in the bud by taking 3 daemon engines or 2 engines and a pred at 2k msn-wink.gif   

Little bit of love to go around for everybody! 

 

Random side note; Anyone here got a Decimator engine? how are they? 







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