Anti-Tank Tactica

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

While not particularly anti-tank, I think this model does more than a heldrake. What do people think about dreadclaws? Another way to deliver rubrics without cp. Or use the webway for tzaangors and pods for marines. Flies in, drops off. If it lives it can fly around and burn multiple units in combat as well as munch things and regain wounds.

My only experience with a Dreadclaw was positive, though that was for World Eaters

I have had nothing but good things to say about my forgefiend, yes in a vacuum its not as good as a defiler on a 1-1 basis, but frankly my forgefiend with duel hades cannons is cheaper, and outputs more damage then my defiler, except in combat where the defiler is just a monsterous bugger. 

 

The forgefiend has several advantages over the predator, of course the predator outputs more straight AT damage, but that 5++ invul, and regaining of wounds is just so fantastic on the forgefiend and its bretheren along with having a pip more wounds. (12 to 11) and a 3+/5++ to a 3+, and of course the engines all have the Daemon keyword and access to the Daemonforge strategem just making them wrecking balls in either shooting or melee. 

 

Them being "mediocre" at base stat means nothing when we can buff them to very large heights.  

 

I usually nip this debate in the bud by taking 3 daemon engines or 2 engines and a pred at 2k    

 

Little bit of love to go around for everybody! 

 

Random side note; Anyone here got a Decimator engine? how are they? 

Got 1 Decimator (Double Claw, Double Flamer), haven't fielded it yet. Will let you know when I do.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Hilariously, if we can get a Rubric squad with a Soulreaper and a Plasma Pistol Aspiring to 12 inches range, they'll do somewhere around 4 wounds to a Rhino, counting Smite, but with no buffs.

 

That squad costs 210pts, plus a CP to Webway them or the sacrifice of the Dark Matter Crystal.

 

Roughly 2 wounds per 100 points, outgunning the Defiler and Forgefiend at their preferred ranges. Granted, it's not a straight comparison given the variety of battlefield factors that would affect the units differently, but I just want to point out that Rubricae and Scarabs are NOT kind to vehicles. :)

[Paladin777]

Actually a squad of 10 rubric marines with a soulreaper cannon and a plasma pistol on the sorcerer is 226 points... still worth it in my opinion.

[Panzer]

It's also important to note that while the Defiler can defend itself against something like a Rhino that keeps charging in to prevent the shooting, it's still completely helpless against any kind of horde or semi-horde unit just like the Forgefiend.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Actually a squad of 10 rubric marines with a soulreaper cannon and a plasma pistol on the sorcerer is 226 points... still worth it in my opinion.

Aaaaand the curse of forgetting the Inferno Bolters strikes again. Good catch. Thanks.

[Ishagu]

It's also important to note that while the Defiler can defend itself against something like a Rhino that keeps charging in to prevent the shooting, it's still completely helpless against any kind of horde or semi-horde unit just like the Forgefiend.

There's that cheap weapon upgrade you can take that multiplies it's attacks by 3.

 

Decimators seems good for Chaos, I've only ever seen them a few times in all the years.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Ishagu

[Panzer]

 

It's also important to note that while the Defiler can defend itself against something like a Rhino that keeps charging in to prevent the shooting, it's still completely helpless against any kind of horde or semi-horde unit just like the Forgefiend.

There's that cheap weapon upgrade you can take that multiplies it's attacks by 3.

 

Decimators seems good for Chaos, I've only ever seen them a few times in all the years.

 

You mean that upgrade that makes it even more melee focussed than it already was? The one that you'd replace your Havoc Launcher with? Which in turn makes it more of a waste to keep it as a shooty unit? Yeah I know about that one. ^^

Also it doesn't multiply the attacks by 3. It just adds 3 attacks. Like a huge chainsword.

[Ishagu]

Oh, that's not as good as I thought then. Yeah, defo stick with the Havoc launcher.

[Paladin777]

I think I am going to swap the reaper auto canon on mine out for a twin heavy Bolter. More Dakka = better.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Hilariously, if we can get a Rubric squad with a Soulreaper and a Plasma Pistol Aspiring to 12 inches range, they'll do somewhere around 4 wounds to a Rhino, counting Smite, but with no buffs.

 

That squad costs 210pts, plus a CP to Webway them or the sacrifice of the Dark Matter Crystal.

 

Roughly 2 wounds per 100 points, outgunning the Defiler and Forgefiend at their preferred ranges. Granted, it's not a straight comparison given the variety of battlefield factors that would affect the units differently, but I just want to point out that Rubricae and Scarabs are NOT kind to vehicles.

 

See; this has been my experience as well.  

 

If you "vets of the long war" a rubric unit alone it will dang near kill rhino/pred chasis tanks in one go.  and thats assuming no other buffs, generally if the thing is T8; I start to get concerned...if its T7 or below? apply inferno bolts directly to the forehead.  They are great against most vehicles barring T8 vehicles where it becomes a much harder sell, but hey....thats what Las preds and Forgefiends are for!  

I think I am going to swap the reaper auto canon on mine out for a twin heavy Bolter. More Dakka = better.

 

The 2 extra shots is worth it. averages out far better and statistically the heavy bolter is basically just as good as the reaper this edition but with 2 more shots and same AP and damage. 

[Paladin777]

I’ve been doing the math. The Reaper only pulls ahead if shooting at toughness 6 or against 7 when using deamon forge. In both cases it’s not by much.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

Hilariously, if we can get a Rubric squad with a Soulreaper and a Plasma Pistol Aspiring to 12 inches range, they'll do somewhere around 4 wounds to a Rhino, counting Smite, but with no buffs.

 

That squad costs 210pts, plus a CP to Webway them or the sacrifice of the Dark Matter Crystal.

 

Roughly 2 wounds per 100 points, outgunning the Defiler and Forgefiend at their preferred ranges. Granted, it's not a straight comparison given the variety of battlefield factors that would affect the units differently, but I just want to point out that Rubricae and Scarabs are NOT kind to vehicles.

 

See; this has been my experience as well.  

 

If you "vets of the long war" a rubric unit alone it will dang near kill rhino/pred chasis tanks in one go.  and thats assuming no other buffs, generally if the thing is T8; I start to get concerned...if its T7 or below? apply inferno bolts directly to the forehead.  They are great against most vehicles barring T8 vehicles where it becomes a much harder sell, but hey....thats what Las preds and Forgefiends are for!  

I think I am going to swap the reaper auto canon on mine out for a twin heavy Bolter. More Dakka = better.

 

The 2 extra shots is worth it. averages out far better and statistically the heavy bolter is basically just as good as the reaper this edition but with 2 more shots and same AP and damage. 

 

Agree on Vets. I've done horrible things to Rhinos with my 20 man Ru-Brick and just Prescience. Vets makes things even worse.

[Minsc]

I'm up against Steel Legion tomorrow.

2000 pts and I have no real dedicated anti-tank.

 

Wish me luck.

 

I didn't get to go first despite +1, and he brought 5 Chimera's, 2 Leman Russes and a Baneblade.

Don't think I have to say much more than that. At least I didn't get wiped. My Daemon Prince refused to die (thanks to having a 3++) and survived the game with 1 wound left. 

[MoGuy]

Two Leman Russes and a Baneblade are beatable. And the Chimeras are just Rhinos with a few lasguns. Played against Iron Warriors recently with a Knight two bunkers with lascannon Havocs and three Basiliks. I almost tabled him.

[Skerr]

Rough go Minsc. love to hear your retrospect, you know, how it played, would you have taken something different etc...

when you get time.

myself, a pred, brutes, MWs, enlightened spears and a whole lot of inferno bolters.

I'm facing off Guard maybe this weekend
I expect hordes of troops and several big gun tanks. thinking a blob of tzangoors webwayed to the up tanks. I know it aint cheap though effective en mass would warpflamers be to webway in spray as many tanks as possible, yeah they would probably die next shooting phase, less I webway in both!?

Edited February 16, 2018 by WarriorFish
Chat speak corrected

[Paladin777]

Just remember that warpflamers are wounding russ’s on 6’s. I can’t see them being too points effective against that.

 

With VotLW, it would take 15-ish warpflamers shooting to drop one.

[Raven1]

I know it's reaching into another codex but I believe exalted flamers might be worthwhile or using chaos dreadclaw or whatever they are called to drop in helbrutes and the like, or of course the fireraptor

[Skerr]

Thanks Pal777, seems.obvious now, lol Edited February 16, 2018 by Skerr

[Paladin777]

Honestly, I think our best offense vs leman russ tanks without going to Forgeworld is probably good ol’ Disco predators. Prescience plus a rr1’s aura makes them pretty darn horrifying to enemy armor.

[Minsc]

Two Leman Russes and a Baneblade are beatable. And the Chimeras are just Rhinos with a few lasguns. Played against Iron Warriors recently with a Knight two bunkers with lascannon Havocs and three Basiliks. I almost tabled him.

 

Not for my list. It lacked any dedicated anti-tank other than 2 Helfyre Missile Racks.

My main source of AT was massed low-str AP1 (Tzaangor Blades, Enlightened, etc) and take a guess what Steel Legions army trait is...

 

Rough go Minsc. love to hear your retrospect, you know, how it played, would you have taken something different etc...

 

when you get time.

 

myself, a pred, brutes, MWs, enlightened spears and a whole lot of inferno bolters.

 

I'm facing off Guard maybe this weekend

I expect hordes of troops and several big gun tanks. thinking a blob of tzangoors webwayed to the up tanks. I know it aint cheap though effective en mass would warpflamers be to webway in spray as many tanks as possible, yeah they would probably die next shooting phase, less I webway in both!?

 

Honestly it was just a bad matchup. Steel Legion is probably the IG-regiment my list is most weak against.

It's not like my list was particularly good either, I just threw some stuff I wanted to try together. 

 

If I had got to go first the match would probably have ended differently however, as that would mean that my Mutalith wouldn't had died before it got to do anything, so it could've given my Tzaangors AP2, hence bypassing his trait. Would've had a fairly large chance of killing the Baneblade in one go as well. Alas, even with +1 I didn't get to go first.

 

Thoughts from the game:

- VotLW is awesome, but we already knew that. My 10 SOT's almost killed two Chimeras in one go. Sadly after that they got the Baneblades attention and 7 of them died.

- Before the game I was pondering whether to give my Daemon Prince +1 invuln or +1 to manifest. Now I can safely say that I will always go with a 3++. Always.

- +6" on our spells is remarkably good, I'm very glad we have it as I often found myself in need of it.

- Helm of the Third Eye was my only relic (could only carry one as my other HQ was Ahriman) and I will always be bringing it. Our army eats CP's and we can't really get that many without abusing daemon detatchments (which I refuse to do), so it's very handy to have.

- Ahriman is an amazing buffbot. I ran him with Prescience, Warptime (Smite when there's nothing to Warptime) and Glamour of Tzeentch. Psychic power pouring out of every orifice. He also killed Yarrick in one go. People don't expect a Psyker to have a Damage 3 weapon.

 

Sadly I didn't really got to try out the Mutalith (died instantly) or my Enlightened very much (no other targets than tanks who ignored their AP1 or guardsmen). I'm not disheartened however. In fact I'm kinda glad that the guy I played against won, since before this game he was on a 4x loosing-streak against me.