Best CP-miner detachment?

[Kappel]

Hi all

 

In this forum, especially in Morticons long and very informative thread (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/) , the 'CP-miner Astra Militarum Build, have been discussed a lot. 

 

The CP-miner build is in very short a way to get a lot of Command points. I quote Morticon here:

 

"CP-Miner: 

 

Astra Militarum Commander with "Kurov's Aquila" and Warlord Trait "Grand Strategist". 

 

A. Every time your opponent uses a strat, roll a die.  On a 5+, you get one. 
B. For every command point you use, roll a die. On a 5+ you get one back.

C. Once per game you can reroll a failed hit, wound or armour save in your army. 

I take as a 30 point Auxiliary  at -1 CP,  but you can get it as cheap as a 70, for no CP reduction in a patrol detach.."

 

I feel like, if you wanna push Blood Angels to the limit, at for example tournaments, this CP-miner is an really important trick to use. But what is, in your opinion/experience the best way to have a CP-miner detachment? Because There is SO many options to include some Guard in a detachment! 

 

- You could do the officer only as an auxiliary detachment for a very cheap 30 points. But then you would lose 1 command point. 

- You could take 3 mortar teams in a very cheap Spearhead with an officer (around 129 points). Good for clearing chaff and deploying you units out of line of sight. +1 CP. As Cadians I believe you could make them do some reroll to hit rolls of 1, and you could issue an order to one, maybe two squads, to also reroll wound rolls of 1. 

- You could do the alfa strike Tempestor Prime/Tempestor Scions/Tempestus Command Squad combo in a patrol detachment. A bit more risky because the CP-Miner (the Tempestor Prime) would be in the frontline. But it could be really lethal combined with death company for a turn 1 or 2 charge and plasma shooting. Something that could potentially totally crumble an exposed opponent. 

 

There are really many cool options! 

 

I am myself thinking about investing in the mortar teams, for some cheap chaff removal, combined with a way to deploy a lot of units out of sight. 

 

But do you have any experience/insight, you could share with another brother of Baal? 

 

 

[Morticon]

I think this is a great idea.

Didnt think of the mortars, but theyre brilliant.  

Plasma drop Scions will also synergise with the BA exceptionally well.

Your choices will depend on your army build though. 

3 infantry squads for example can make great bubble wrap if you're not using scouts. 

 

[Kappel]

Those mortars can get ridiculous:

 

9d6 shots. S4. All reroll 1's to hit. One or two squads reroll 1's to wound. Units shooting potentially out of LOS. for 99 points! 

 

Play against chaos, and you pop the 'Vengeance for Cadia' on one of the squads for 1 CP, (potentially giving you a couple of CP back..). And then that squad reroll all failed hits and failed wounds. 

[Blackcadian]

I’ve used the miner once so far, accidentally like the Veritas though, and still found him great. Will bring him again vs Eldar this Sunday. It’s really cutting edge stuff we’re talking about, I wouldn’t bring this in a ‘normal’ game. But vs Eldar you gotta do what you gotta do. Filthy xenos.

 

Right now I run the cheapest version possible that won’t cost me a CP:

 

DKOK Officer

3x Inquisitorial Acolytes

 

50 pts on the nose if I recall correctly.

 

I have looked into mortars, too, but don’t have any AM models and I don’t want to proxy too much.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Blackcadian

[Crimson Ghost IX]

I have been running a slightly expanded battalion of IG the last few games myself, plenty of ways to do it better.

Still running a BA warlord, so just using Kurovs Aquila here.

I collected and played IG long ago and perhaps IG primary with BA allies are a stronger army but I wanna play BA myself personally.

 

Works with the models I already have built and painted and feel like splashing out for... while remaining a BA army:

 

Company Commander

Company Commander

Master of Ordnance

IG Infantry Squad x10 with vox and grenade launcher.

IG Infantry Squad x10 with vox and grenade launcher.

IG Infantry Squad x10 with vox and grenade launcher.

Heavy Weapons Team x3 with Mortars

Heavy Weapons Team x3 with Mortars

Basilisk

414 pts

 

I pushed one mortar team up to a basilisk with the Master of Ordnance and have been having fun with that.

Overall I would say Mortars in a spearhead are a great bet.

The 180 pts of 3x10 infantry and another commander come in handy vs chaos in my limited experience using them.

Scout sentinels are pretty fun if you go with an outrider detachment or are growing to a brigade.

 

CP mining is sweet, but it was the board control and chaos cultists, pox walkers etc that led me to dusting off my IG here.

Fun allies, but can roll without them too!

 

If GW gave us enough base cp would you be playing them still is a valid question before buying methinks.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Jorre]

Following this thread!

 

I have 30 guardsmen ive never painted so that appeals to me.... but 3 mortars and a commander is a really quick and easy thing to build/paint!

[Morticon]

Following this thread!

 

I have 30 guardsmen ive never painted so that appeals to me.... but 3 mortars and a commander is a really quick and easy thing to build/paint!

I think I'd like to try build/convert some servitor looking units with mortars and play counts as.  

 

 

[Kappel]

 

Following this thread!

 

I have 30 guardsmen ive never painted so that appeals to me.... but 3 mortars and a commander is a really quick and easy thing to build/paint!

I think I'd like to try build/convert some servitor looking units with mortars and play counts as.  

 

 

 

Or use Krieg models. Just 'cause their mortar squads look amazing! https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-DK/Death-Korps-of-Krieg-Mortar-Team-2

[Explorer1]

I'm combing Scions and Mortars. An AM Battalion with a Commander (the miner), 2 Tempestor Primes, 3 (or more depending on points) Scions with Plasma, 2 Tempestus Command Squads with Hot Shot Volley Guns, a Platoon Commander (so all three units of mortars can receive orders) and 3 mortar teams. Around 600pts. Expensive, but if you're going to take the miner, you might as well get value from the rest of the detachment.

[Panzer]

 

 

Following this thread!

 

I have 30 guardsmen ive never painted so that appeals to me.... but 3 mortars and a commander is a really quick and easy thing to build/paint!

I think I'd like to try build/convert some servitor looking units with mortars and play counts as.  

 

 

 

Or use Krieg models. Just 'cause their mortar squads look amazing! https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-DK/Death-Korps-of-Krieg-Mortar-Team-2

 

If they just weren't so expensive and resin lol

[Morticon]

...and looked like guardsmen :P 

[Kappel]

 

 

 

Following this thread!

 

I have 30 guardsmen ive never painted so that appeals to me.... but 3 mortars and a commander is a really quick and easy thing to build/paint!

I think I'd like to try build/convert some servitor looking units with mortars and play counts as.  

 

 

 

Or use Krieg models. Just 'cause their mortar squads look amazing! https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-DK/Death-Korps-of-Krieg-Mortar-Team-2

 

If they just weren't so expensive and resin lol

 

Bah, its only 209 pounds for 9! 

[Calistarius]

I’ve been thinking about doing the mortar thing for a while now. As Cadians with the order you can reroll all missed hits if they remain stationary. That’d be nice for 2/3 squads.

 

I don’t own any guardsmen though, so I’d have to buy 3 heavy weapons squads and a commander to make this happen. Speaking of which, what are you guys using as your commander?

[Kappel]

I’ve been thinking about doing the mortar thing for a while now. As Cadians with the order you can reroll all missed hits if they remain stationary. That’d be nice for 2/3 squads.

 

I don’t own any guardsmen though, so I’d have to buy 3 heavy weapons squads and a commander to make this happen. Speaking of which, what are you guys using as your commander?

I'm thinking about using the dude with the radio: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-DK/Imperial-Guard-Regimental-Advisors

[superwill]

+1 to the acolyte detachment. 54 points for the miner and 3 bolter acolytes.

 

I've taken the CP miner probably 15 times in various formations, but it's hard to go past the cheapest option (well, you could take auxiliary, but for 24 points you get +2CPs and three dudes with bolters sitting on objectives.) I've tried the mortars a couple of times and not found them particularly useful unless they're there to bubble wrap something. Their damage output is negligible so I'd rather save the points for more BA.

 

The only reason I don't take him in every game is that I sometimes like to have my warlord upfield for my SG's sake. If I wasn't running SG then the miner is a no-brainer, much as I like Artisan of War. I've taken him a couple of times as not the warlord, just for Kurovs Aquila, and I'm not passionately sold either way on that. It's decent.

 

As for a model, I've just started using this girl https://artelw.com/shop#w--ul-id-55-3/The-Distaff/p/98302249/category=0--w

 

But there are some cool new options from Artel. Jack Meinhardt and Jessica Bruder look amazing. I use 99% GW minis, but for random characters like this I'm happy to branch out a little.

Edited February 16, 2018 by superwill

[Indefragable]

For what it’s worth, you can get an IG Brigade for 624:

 

Hidden Content

 

HQ:

Company Commander x 3

 

TROOPS:

Infantry Squad x 6

 

ELITES:

Platoon Commander x 3

 

FAST ATTACK:

Scout Sentinel x 3 (the most expensive unit in here!)

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Heavy Weapons Squad x 3

-mortars

 

 

...are you telling me if you had 12+ CP already, you couldn’t fill up 1300pts with the stabbiest nastiest units in the BA Codex?

 

For like 750pts you can easily tweak the above to give you some viable output too (Psykers, Yarrick for re-rolls, even Armored Sentinels for eating Overwatch).

 

A Battalion can be as cheap as 180

 

Hidden Content

HQ:

Company Commander x 2

 

TROOPS:

Infantry Squad x 3

 

...so double that for 360 and you still have a minimum of 9CP + whatever BA you bring

[Panzer]

I'd most likely go for a Battalion to have some chaff on the board. Maybe with Lascannons due the lack of ranged anti-tank in a Primaris list.

[superwill]

For what it’s worth, you can get an IG Brigade for 624:

 

Hidden Content

 

HQ:

Company Commander x 3

 

TROOPS:

Infantry Squad x 6

 

ELITES:

Platoon Commander x 3

 

FAST ATTACK:

Scout Sentinel x 3 (the most expensive unit in here!)

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Heavy Weapons Squad x 3

-mortars

 

 

...are you telling me if you had 12+ CP already, you couldn’t fill up 1300pts with the stabbiest nastiest units in the BA Codex?

 

For like 750pts you can easily tweak the above to give you some viable output too (Psykers, Yarrick for re-rolls, even Armored Sentinels for eating Overwatch).

 

A Battalion can be as cheap as 180

 

Hidden Content

HQ:

Company Commander x 2

 

TROOPS:

Infantry Squad x 3

 

...so double that for 360 and you still have a minimum of 9CP + whatever BA you bring

Eh, I dunno man, that looks like 700 points of paper-weights to me. A couple of units who do nothing but sit on objectives is one thing, but 700 points worth is more than I'd be keen to run. The 360 is a little better, but leaves you with one detachment (if you play the GW recommended 3 detachment max. If you don't, you could just spam acolyte vanguards for cheaper.)

 

Personally I would rather have 1950 points of killing machines and 8 CPs (still with Grand Strategist, Kurovs Aquila and VV, making it effectively more like 18-20) than 1300 points of killing machines and 14 CPs (effectively more like 28-30). But I tend to focus less on sitting on objectives and more on crippling my opponent early, so that could just be personal preference.

 

Edit: If I'm running killshot preds I like to take the infantry squads as bubble wrap, and then I sometimes do take a single battalion of Guard. Otherwise I just don't really want 6 squads and 4 HQs just sitting around. You can run them upfield, but by the time they get there the BA have already fought and either won or lost the battle, and in any case when they're armed with flashlights and die to a gentle breeze there isn't a lot of point anyway.

Edited February 16, 2018 by superwill

[CCE1981]

Don’t forget to take the Blood Angels relic that let’s you gain a CP back after using a Stratagem on top of that.

[Kappel]

+1 to the acolyte detachment. 54 points for the miner and 3 bolter acolytes.

 

I've taken the CP miner probably 15 times in various formations, but it's hard to go past the cheapest option (well, you could take auxiliary, but for 24 points you get +2CPs and three dudes with bolters sitting on objectives.) I've tried the mortars a couple of times and not found them particularly useful unless they're there to bubble wrap something. Their damage output is negligible so I'd rather save the points for more BA.

 

The only reason I don't take him in every game is that I sometimes like to have my warlord upfield for my SG's sake. If I wasn't running SG then the miner is a no-brainer, much as I like Artisan of War. I've taken him a couple of times as not the warlord, just for Kurovs Aquila, and I'm not passionately sold either way on that. It's decent.

 

As for a model, I've just started using this girl https://artelw.com/shop#w--ul-id-55-3/The-Distaff/p/98302249/category=0--w

 

But there are some cool new options from Artel. Jack Meinhardt and Jessica Bruder look amazing. I use 99% GW minis, but for random characters like this I'm happy to branch out a little.

This is interesting. And surprises me. Do you simply find that the mortars don’t do enough damage? Or is it lack of appropiate targets? I am preparing for a GT at the moment, and would like to not waste money and time making the wrong CP-miner detachment... and I am very close at ordering a bunch of Heavy Weapons teams!

[Calistarius]

I've tried the mortars a couple of times and not found them particularly useful unless they're there to bubble wrap something. Their damage output is negligible so I'd rather save the points for more BA.

 

You've really found it to be negligible?  I wouldn't think 9d6 Str 4 shots would be insignificant.  Not needing LoS is a big deal in ITC formats.  Make them Cadian, and issue Take Aim (I think its called) to counter the BS 4+.  To me this seems like the Imperial version of Dark Reapers with Tempest Launchers...granted not as good.  I'd consider this to be a decent choice for 129 points and all the CP shenanigans.

 

Don't take this as sarcasm.  I'm sincerely asking, and I don't want to spend $100 on models I don't have if it is a waste of time and effort.  Was your terrain ideal?  What type of opponent and play style were you facing/using? 

[Brother Crimson]

For what it’s worth, you can get an IG Brigade for 624:

 

Hidden Content

 

HQ:

Company Commander x 3

 

TROOPS:

Infantry Squad x 6

 

ELITES:

Platoon Commander x 3

 

FAST ATTACK:

Scout Sentinel x 3 (the most expensive unit in here!)

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Heavy Weapons Squad x 3

-mortars

 

 

...are you telling me if you had 12+ CP already, you couldn’t fill up 1300pts with the stabbiest nastiest units in the BA Codex?

 

For like 750pts you can easily tweak the above to give you some viable output too (Psykers, Yarrick for re-rolls, even Armored Sentinels for eating Overwatch).

 

A Battalion can be as cheap as 180

 

Hidden Content

HQ:

Company Commander x 2

 

TROOPS:

Infantry Squad x 3

 

...so double that for 360 and you still have a minimum of 9CP + whatever BA you bring

I’d love to try a 15 cp army with 20 sang guard, sanguinor, chaplain and ancient with CP regeneration engine. I just need more guard model XD

 

If I recall correctly one of the top BA army at LVO was a brigade with BA elites.

[superwill]

Re: Kappell

 

Well my dude, I don't wanna be responsible for the wrong decision for ya! But I would just point out that really, mortars are pretty much just a couple of 48" bolters each. I don't usually expect a squad of bolters to do a whole lot, I wouldn't expect anything more from the mortars. If you have something to bubble-wrap then they're fine, or if you need some objective sitters they're okay. I wouldn't take more than a few personally but others here seem to like them.

 

Is it a 3 x 3 mortar Heavy Weapon Teams (spearhead) detachment you're thinking about? Or the 3 x infantry squads with a mortar (batallion) you're looking at? I'd think that the best options are either the batallion for the extra CPs or just an acolyte vanguard over the mortar spearhead to save on points. But of course it's so dependent on what else you're rocking and what else you could do with the points!

Edited February 16, 2018 by superwill

[superwill]

You've really found it to be negligible? I wouldn't think 9d6 Str 4 shots would be insignificant. Not needing LoS is a big deal in ITC formats. Make them Cadian, and issue Take Aim (I think its called) to counter the BS 4+. To me this seems like the Imperial version of Dark Reapers with Tempest Launchers...granted not as good. I'd consider this to be a decent choice for 129 points and all the CP shenanigans.

 

Don't take this as sarcasm. I'm sincerely asking, and I don't want to spend $100 on models I don't have if it is a waste of time and effort. Was your terrain ideal? What type of opponent and play style were you facing/using?

Well I've taken them twice but versed them many, many times. When my mate uses autocannons or lascannons, even heavy bolter teams, I pay them some attention. When he takes mortars I know they're there just to fill up slots in a brigade.

 

Think of it this way. Shooting against those Dark Reapers you're comparing to (who recently wiped my Cpt Smash off the board when he was out of LOS with a bunch of Tempest Launchers or whatever they're called). 9d6 shots, let's call it 31 shots. With Cadian Regiment, 17.5 hit. 12 wound. With his inevitable 2+ cover save, that's 2 dead. Against marines, it's 1. Even against the perfect enemies (Other guard?) you're not doing a whole lot. For the 75 points more than 3 bolter acolytes cost, I don't see the reason for them. That's 3 lascannons more expensive, for pretty negligible gain!

 

Of course, acolytes will be easy to shift off objectives. If you're looking for objectives sitters, go the infantry (maybe with a heavy weapon) and get those extra CPs. But if you're only doing a 1CP detachment, I'd recommend the acolyte vanguard with pickaxe man.

Edited February 16, 2018 by superwill

[Paladin777]

Well, 9d6 str 4 shots at BS 4+ is 2.6 dead marines. Against GEQ it’s 7 casualties. Less than impressive, but a good obj sitter as mentioned before.