Gentlemanloser Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 As the Custodian Guard unit has different wargear options in the Codex, it should still be possible to use the Index version. If I'm correct, you couldn't use the Stats of the Index unit, so no Shield Captain. But you could get a unit of 3 Custodian Guard with just Sentinel Blades and no Storm Shields. Or even add in the Custodes Vexila wargear option for a half price Vexila Imperius that only effects that unit. Quite a nice option to get +1A on a large squad, or shave some points off a troop choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Orlock Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 See last page of this: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 16, 2018 Author Share Posted February 16, 2018 Yes, i was following that. ;) The Misericordia doesn't exist in the Index. The AC have a nearly identical Power Knife instead. Also The Custodes Vexila is not a Vexila Imperius, although they are nearly identicle. And as you have to use the Codex datasheet you can't take the Shield Captain unit stats from the Index datasheet. But The ability to take Sentinel Blades without Storm Shields and the in unit Vexila are valid options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 That's an interesting case since the shield captain became a seperate unit now. I'd have to agree that you basically just lose out on the captain and have some stuff by different names, and by extension point costs. Not sure how worth it would be against most armies but if you really need to fight orks or something similar it could be quite helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Orlock Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Yes, i was following that. Yes, well, I got called away by a livestock water heating issue before I finished the analysis and reflexively posted the start of it. Anyway, there are some assertions I agree with, others I don't. Key thing to note is that the flow chart references models. Not datasheet names or anything else. So, I think we've correctly assessed that the shield captain's been broken out as his own thing now. I've also got no issue with sword only Custodes. Taking the dagger, opens up a question about if opting for index kit closes off access to codex kit and I don't recall if we've debated that to a good conclusion. Where I disagree is the embedded icon bearer. While release notes are a suspect source, they did specifically mention they cut the minimum unit size down to three so that you could field a legal element after you'd also built a captain and icon bearer from the same set of five. Which carries the implication that they'd now consider any icon bearers as the same model type, and thus their own datasheet. There's even a more formal way of negotiating around the wargear name change by noting that the Custodes Vexilla ability of the Vexilus Praetor allows you to select the Vexilus Imperius as the vexila it will carry. Which means that a Vexilus Imperius is a subtype of Custodes Vexilla. --------- So, feel free to ditch the shields. Everything else is a little dodgier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 16, 2018 Author Share Posted February 16, 2018 Well you get the ability to take 49 point teoops in sizes of 3. 147 points per troop slot isn't bad for filling detachment for the AC. And if you blob, adding an extra attack to each mini for 25 points would be better than buying them all misericordias (around 6/7 depending). Plus the moral bonus would be useful for the blob. Edit. As for the Vex. The index Custodes Vexila is a wargear option. With different rules to the Codex Custodes Vexila. And the Codex Custodes Vexila is not wargear, but a unit ability. Following The flowchart as the Index Vex is a wargear option there should be nothing stopping you from taking it in a unit of Custodian Guard. Regardless if a different unit has an ability of the same name. Edit2. As for the SC being out, isn't that because we have to use the Codex Datasheet fir Custodian Gaurd. Hence the min size of 3 instead of 5. And no SC as he is no longer included in the Codex datasheet for the unit? Edit3. I think the discussion point is the last point. Does The wargear have rules in the codex? You should be able to use the vex in the guard squad. But Would you have to use the Preators rule and select one of the three options at codex point cost? With also the restriction on moral as well. Corrolory. If The answer above is yes. Then buffs from the sane thing don't stack do they? You couldn't have a Guard unit with -1 hit banner stacking with a Preators -1 hit banner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildweasel Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 This is stretching the intent of the flowchart and the obvious redesign of how Custodes units work way past anything reasonable. You have a Custodian model with a big shiny vexilla? Look, there's a datasheet in the codex that covers him and the item he's carrying. So you use that datasheet, full stop. This is not comparable to Mortis Dreads, Chaplains on bikes, or Commissars with power axes, where the models themselves or their carried items are not represented at all. About the only reasonable use of this with regard to the Guard squad is for sword only models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 There is no intent, only RAW. Does the flowchart allow a guard squad to take a vexila? Does That vexila have to follow the rules in the codex? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildweasel Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 There is no intent, only RAW. Does the flowchart allow a guard squad to take a vexila? Does That vexila have to follow the rules in the codex? "There's no intent in a document labeled Designer's Commentary." Lol, Ok. No. Because the model, a Custodian with a vexilla, has a datasheet in the codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 Follow the flowchart. Custodian Guard model. 1. Does it have a Codex datasheet? Yes 2. Are there index only wargear options? Yes 3. Use the Codex version of your models datasheet. Custodian Guard. 4. Use the index version for wargear options. One Custodian in the unit may replace its Guardian Spear with a Custodes Vexila and a Power Knife. The model is a Custodian Guard. At all times the datasheets being referenced are Custodian Guard. The Vexilus Praetor is never referenced. Also note the wargear option includes a mandatory Power Knife, which is different to a Misericordia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildweasel Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 It's not a Custodian Guard at that point. It's a Custodian model with a vexilla. Is there a datasheet that covers a Custodian model with the vexilla in the codex? Yes, so you use that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 No its still a Custodian Guard. It does not change to become a Vexilus Praetor with a different unit name and stat line. Edit any more than euipping a Custodian Guard with only a sentinel blade makes him a Shield Captain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildweasel Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 It’s still a model of a Custodian, regardless of the dude’s title, with a Vexilla. Which has a data sheet in the Codex: the Vexilla Praetor. So that’s what you use. The entire point of the flowchart is to allow you to use models that would otherwise be unfieldable. That is not the case for a Custodian with vexilla model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 Its still a Custodian with a sentinel blade. Which has a datasheet. The Shield Captain. Come on. At stage 1 in the flow chart we fix the datasheet we are using for the model. It never changes. Edit. Hopefulky the final nail. The wargear option is Custodes Vexila and Power Knife. That is not a valid wargear option for the Vexus Praetor datasheet. Your model with Custodes Vexila and power knife *cannot* legally be a Vexilus Praetor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildweasel Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 A Custodian model with sword and no shield has no data sheet in the Codex that allows you to field it, so at that point you would go to the Index data sheet to make it fieldable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 Please recheck the shield captain datasheet. Sentinel blade and no storm shield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildweasel Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 And the datasheet for a Custodian with vexilla is the Vexilla Praetor. It’s not a Custodian Guard until it is assigned to a Custodian Guard unit, and it never gets that opportunity because a Codex datasheet exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 You are not following the flowchart... Look i understand you don't like this option. That's fine. But there is RAW to allow it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildweasel Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Cmon you are seriously arguing that the exact same bit is a power knife if your glued it on before the Codex and never will be a misericordia? I don’t have the Codex immedaitely at hand for the SC sheet - but yes, if it allows for Shield-Captains with swords, that doesn’t break the ability to use Guard with swords, as Shield-Captains are provided with bits to make them distinctive models. The cape marks that model out as something other than a standard Custodian Guard. The vexilla does the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 A Custodian model with sword and no shield has no data sheet in the Codex that allows you to field it, so at that point you would go to the Index data sheet to make it fieldable. Have to agree with Gentlemanloser here. We are only given permission to use wargear from an old datasheet on a unit that has since been updated. This does not allow you to take wargear on datasheets that did not exist or ever have that option. Also note the guard Vexila is different than the ones that can be taken on the new model. They are distinct pieces of wargear that belong to two entirely different models. At no point are you given permission to use the old wargear on a new unit, only on the unit that has since been updated. If you did take the Vexila on the squad you would need to use the rules of the old one since the name of the wargear is different than the new ones. Edit: Also this is the official rules topic. Intent of the rules is irrelevant for discussions here. The only thing that carries any weight when discussing rules is RAW as it is the only thing that you can use to debate this point with people you aren't familiar with. In your community intent can vary so topics like this need to stick to the Rules as they are Written. If the RAW means something acts in a way that probably isn't intended then pass it on to the GW FAQ team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildweasel Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 The flowchart isn’t RAW, it’s commentary, so you don’t get to use it as it is purely an instrument of intent :) Pick up your Guard with vexilla and put him next to my identically armed Vexilla Praetor. They are the same model: a Custodian dude with a big shiny icon on a stick. Does the codex have a datasheet for “dude with icon on a stick”? Yes it does. Sorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 You can model your minis however you want. There are quite a few guys that aren't using the bald heads for dawneagle scs. None of it changes the order of the flowchart. Edit. If you discount the flowchart as RAW, then i disagree utterly with your propsed house rules. Edit. Does your Vexilus Praetor have the warden cloak and an axe? Say yes and ill put down my big stick guy with no cloak and no axe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 The flowchart isn’t RAW, it’s commentary, so you don’t get to use it as it is purely an instrument of intent Pick up your Guard with vexilla and put him next to my identically armed Vexilla Praetor. They are the same model: a Custodian dude with a big shiny icon on a stick. Does the codex have a datasheet for “dude with icon on a stick”? Yes it does. Sorted. The flowchart is just as official as anything else as it is written by GW for people playing 40k. Without it they could just say you'll use the most up to date version of the rules and deal with it. Instead they made that to allow people to use old models that used to be legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildweasel Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 But they still model them to be distinctive, the game assumes you are making them distinctive, and gives you the means to do so (even as weak sauce as the in-kit option is for the jetbikes :) ) There is nothing distinctive about the vexilla-carrier pre vs post index. He’s just a guy with a vexilla and the Codex has a datasheet that allows you to field him so that’s what you use. “Guy with a Vexilla” is legal under the codex, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 I've yet to pick up a guard box. No idea if thier Vex is physically identicle to the warden Vex. But warden based Vexilus Praetors are visibly different to Guard based. I'm guessing it's a lazy thing. Allowing GW to get away with not having to put an axe in the Guard box. *guy with vex and power knife* isnt. A legal codex option that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.