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Space Marines, 2000 Pts, Competitive, All Comers.

2000 Space Marines Competitive All Comers Ultramarines Gun Line Help List

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#1
Dandylocks

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Hey Yall! I altered my 2000 point list to account for the point increase to razorbacks & stormtalons. Hoping to keep it well rounded so it can deal with almost anything & have it be competitive. Not a fan of the new primaris or guilliman, so that's why you don't see any of them in the list.

 

Trying to come up with a list I can slowly build my army towards. Tried to make it a shooty gun line that's effective at all ranges, and that can be devastating if given first turn, but survivable enough to make an impact if going 2nd. Tried to keep target priority even thought the list, so wiping one unit won't take out all my anti armour or infantry, or killing one unit won't take away 1/4 of my points value. While trying to keep multiple of the same unit as to keep away from the if it's one, there's none rule.

 

The list tries to take advantage of the devastator squad's signum & armourium cherub. Along with using the "chapter master's" & lieutenant's re-rolls. And the new armour rend rules of the game though heavy bolter's, assault cannons, & warlord's "storm of fire" trait.

 

General idea is to try go get an alpha strike off with the Lascannons + Cherub + Sergeant Signum + Hunter-Killer Missiles + Captain & Lieutenant ReRolls, and take out any armour or heavy targets turn 1 (potentially 16 Lascannon shots, 2-6 plasma cannon shots, 2-6 Predator autocannon shots & 3 Hunter-killer Missiles). Then move around as necessary. 1x Predator & 3x devastator squads w/ Lascannons or Plasma Cannon & 2x HeavyBolters can remain in the back or slowly foot slog to mid field. Then 3x devastator squads (with Combi-plasmas & lascannons), veteran's squad, 2x razorbacks, 3x stormtalons, & 2x HQ are the more mobile portion. Captain & Lieutenants have jumppacks to remain outside of transports and keep their aura's active. They also have powerfists incase they need to do a desperation charge against anything. Veteran's are there mostly to protect the Characters with their 2+ bodyguard ability, while not trying to draw fire themselves. Ultramarines chapter tactic to keep falling back and shooting, as anything trying to assault the list will easily overpower it in close combat, and seeing as the list is 95% shooting focused.

 

With Deepstriking armies I think using the cherub & signum on the sergent's combi-plasmas could also be helpful. Along with Stormtalons deployed in front to give more buffer against deep strike assaults.

 

Had over 1500 views on the last post with only 1 comment sad.png, looking for hopefully a little more constructive criticism, critiques, or suggestions then last time. Thanks! Much Love.

 

Army Stats:

Spoiler

 

Army List:

Spoiler

Edited by Dandylocks, 20 February 2018 - 05:41 AM.


#2
jpwyrm

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That's a cool concept for a TAC list, I like it. The only problem I see with it is that you have to burn half hour CPs on the chapter master upgrade which doesn't leave you much for Stratagems. If you could find a way to bump your CP number, I think you'd greatly benefit from it.

Good luck!
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#3
Emerald Death

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You mention alpha strike, but I don't see how anything can deep strike. Unless I'm missing something. If you are going to incorporate deep striking elements (drop pods) for an alpha strike then you must have at least one unit of Scouts to create space for them to land. If you are going with the static gun line then you should consider 2-3 units of Scouts to create space and limit where your opponent can deep strike. This will also satisfy Troops for a Battalion for more CP. I agree with the comment above that the 3CP for Chapter Master being too costly with your limited CP pool. Guilliman is amazing, but if you don't like him then have you looked at Calgar? Lastly, have you played any of the ITC missions? You'll really want something that can advance deploy, deep strike, and/or move quickly to secure objectives. I shelved my Storm Talon because they can't secure/contest objectives, which is way more detrimental than not counting towards your army for tabling purposes.

That is my constructive feedback for your consideration.
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We are the Emerald Death. We are the Sons of Medusa.

#4
jpwyrm

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@EmeraldDeath :Just out of curiosity would you consider a small Raven Guard detachment in ITC format to secure objectives with SftS? I'm playing a practice game for a friend tonight and I want to give him a run for his money! RST of the list is inspired by the OP list with RG leading.

#5
Dandylocks

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@EmeraldDeath: Apologies, I believe I've miss used the term "Alpha strike". I wasn't aware it was a term for describing the use of deep striking units (of which the list contains none, with the exception of the 2 HQ). I was trying to use the term to describe the initial strike of my gun line. Using their single use hunter-killer units, cherubs & re-rolls while most of my units are grouped together and alive in the beginning when they would have the largest impact of the game. Thus my incorrect term.

    I was also trying to explain the use of the storm talons to create space and buffer against any opponents deep striking units, but I must not have done a sufficient job of that either. Again, apologies.

 

Thank you both for the awesome feed back, It is greatly appreciated! If you two or any others have any other ideas, thoughts, or questions to share, definitely drop your knowledge here. It helps me out immensely!



#6
Emerald Death

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As a matter of fact, I love running a small Raven Guard detachment. I use mine for 6x Aggressors and a Chaplain. Most of the time I want turn 1 assault, but there are some scenarios where turn 1 double tap shooting is more effective. Don't forget about the double tap Auspex Scan if you go second. If you are using SFtS, you still need Scouts for proactive space creation. Just build your list assuming every opponent you play against has 3x advance deployment units and can spread out their force to prevent you from alpha striking or SFtS anywhere useful. You can see my army list I am planning on taking to this ITC tournament season along with my notes of why I chose certain units. Keep in mind the list is mostly all Primaris.

I like your use of Stormtalons to create space, but just keep in mind that doesn't help if your opponent goes first and has alpha strike units. You can get bottled up pretty quick against certain armies, and although I am confident with your firepower wading through the fray.. it will greatly slow your ability to push through and claim objectives.

Glad my feedback is helpful. Like anything with 8th edition, practice practice practice. There are so many subtle rules and unit abilities that can sway the course of a game. Also, it comes down to what you are playing. If you are playing ITC missions then you'll build a different list than if you are playing a mission out of the core rulebook or just trying to table your opponent.
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We are the Emerald Death. We are the Sons of Medusa.

#7
jpwyrm

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So, I played a game with a list inspired by this one. I got second turn against a Hammerhead parking lot, a Storm Surge and two flying commander. I had to weather the storm before, so I did not have as many shots as I would have liked, but the theory behind Dandylock's list seems to work. Even if I forgot almost all my Cherubs turn 1, I still got to use most of them and it showed. The game was a close one and I think it might not have been as effective without Big G, but still an interesting concept.
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#8
Dandylocks

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OOOOooooooo, awesome! What did you find worked, and what did you find lacking? and If you don't mind, would you mind sharing the list you ran?



#9
jpwyrm

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Happy to share my thoughts. Here's the list though I'm on mobile so results may be poor. I'll post my assessment after.

+++ Mean List (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) +++

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Space Marines) [18 PL, 385pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines
. Categories: No Force Org Slot

+ Lord of War +

Roboute Guilliman [18 PL, 385pts]: Hand of Dominion, The Emperor's Sword
. Categories: Adeptus Astartes, Character, Imperium, Monster, Roboute Guilliman, Ultramarines, Primarch, Lord of War

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [70 PL, 1221pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines
. Categories: No Force Org Slot

+ HQ +

Lieutenants [4 PL, 63pts]
. Categories: Adeptus Astartes, Character, Imperium, Infantry, Lieutenants, HQ
. Lieutenant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Frag & Krak grenades, Master-crafted boltgun
. . Categories: Character

Sergeant Telion [4 PL, 75pts]: Bolt pistol, Camo cloak, Frag & Krak grenades, Quietus
. Categories: Adeptus Astartes, Character, Imperium, Infantry, Scout, Telion, Ultramarines, HQ

+ Troops +

Scout Squad [6 PL, 75pts]
. Categories: Imperium, Infantry, Adeptus Astartes, Scout, Scout Squad, Troops
. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Frag & Krak grenades, Sniper rifle
. 4x Scout w/Sniper Rifle: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Sniper rifle

Scout Squad [6 PL, 75pts]
. Categories: Imperium, Infantry, Adeptus Astartes, Scout, Scout Squad, Troops
. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Frag & Krak grenades, Sniper rifle
. 4x Scout w/Sniper Rifle: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Sniper rifle

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Categories: Imperium, Infantry, Adeptus Astartes, Scout, Scout Squad, Troops
. Scout Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword, Frag & Krak grenades
. 4x Scout w/Boltgun: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

+ Heavy Support +

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 115pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Categories: Adeptus Astartes, Devastator Squad, Imperium, Infantry, Heavy Support
. Space Marine: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Chainsword, Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Heavy bolter
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Lascannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Heavy bolter

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 115pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Categories: Adeptus Astartes, Devastator Squad, Imperium, Infantry, Heavy Support
. Space Marine: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Chainsword, Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Heavy bolter
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Lascannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Heavy bolter

+ Flyer +

Stormtalon Gunship [9 PL, 204pts]: Twin assault cannon, Two Lascannons
. Categories: Adeptus Astartes, Fly, Imperium, Stormhawk Interceptor, Vehicle, Flyer

Stormtalon Gunship [9 PL, 204pts]: Twin assault cannon, Two Lascannons
. Categories: Adeptus Astartes, Fly, Imperium, Stormhawk Interceptor, Vehicle, Flyer

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback [5 PL, 120pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Twin assault cannon
. Categories: Adeptus Astartes, Imperium, Vehicle, Transport, Razorback, Dedicated Transport

Razorback [5 PL, 120pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Twin assault cannon
. Categories: Adeptus Astartes, Imperium, Vehicle, Transport, Razorback, Dedicated Transport

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [28 PL, 393pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines
. Categories: No Force Org Slot

+ HQ +

Lieutenants [4 PL, 63pts]
. Categories: Adeptus Astartes, Character, Imperium, Infantry, Lieutenants, HQ
. Lieutenant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Frag & Krak grenades, Master-crafted boltgun
. . Categories: Character

+ Heavy Support +

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 110pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Categories: Adeptus Astartes, Devastator Squad, Imperium, Infantry, Heavy Support
. 3x Space Marine: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-plasma, Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Lascannon

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 110pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Categories: Adeptus Astartes, Devastator Squad, Imperium, Infantry, Heavy Support
. 3x Space Marine: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-plasma, Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Lascannon

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 110pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Categories: Adeptus Astartes, Devastator Squad, Imperium, Infantry, Heavy Support
. 3x Space Marine: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-plasma, Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Lascannon

++ Total: [116 PL, 1999pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)
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#10
jpwyrm

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Good it worked! So as I said, I played second, this means that one Dev squad from the spearhead was gone along with a razorback and Stormtalon. But even with those losses, the amount of high Str high dmg shots was still enough to make a serious dent into my opponent's firing line. That's the first observation - multiple sources of reliable Lascannon/missiles launchers were great.

Scouts were okay. 95% of the time, I can guarantee a large no-mans land between my DZ and my opponent's with them, but this time he set up first and placed a Stealth suits team dead center. Good move from his part. Snipers with rerolls are better than most people give them credit for.

Space marines are so damned fragile! I won the game on turn 5 thanks to a spider-man wannabe lieutenant who climbed a bastion to secure an objective while a four-man devastator squad from the spearhead held their objective since turn one. And that's what was left of my army. Guilliman refused to stand back up even with a reroll, so this might mitigate the durability of the list in normal circumstances.

Aside from Guilliman, there's no CC threat or counter-assault units. This can be a liability against some armies.

Finally, CPs and Stratagems. Oh boy is it nice to have 10 CPs! It's the first time I played with that much and it felt like I always had an ace up my sleeve when it counted, rerolling missed to hit rolls for isolated units, poor dmg rolls for Lascannon shots, etc. Very powerful, so the more the better for me!

Here you go, hope that helps.

Edited by jpwyrm, 26 February 2018 - 12:45 PM.

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#11
Dandylocks

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Wicked!!! Love the feed back & insight man! Also super stoked you tested out ideas!

 

Guilliman & Command Points vs. Army Value Points

     Anyone have favourite stratagems they like to use? Also, has anyone done the math and figured out the average point worth of one command point? or the average point worth for stratagems? I'd be super interested to see that. I feel like I tend not to value them that much when taking into account list building. How I see it is: Would you rather have the possibility of rerolling a low lascannon damage roll? or have an extra lascannon damage roll?... and I guess that's why my list looks like it does lol

     I also feel underwhelmed by the space marine HQ, and overwhelmed by Guilliman's points cost along with not counting towards an HQ slot. Meaning I would still have to pick something like a captain or lieutenant In the list somewhere. Which I feel is giving out a redundant buff, and taking up extra points costs just to fill an HQ slot. Which is why I've been trying to make the single captain/chapter master & single lieutenant thinggy work, to keep points down.

 

      So I guess my question is, which do you think is more effective? Guilliman + more command points? or more points to play around with (448 extra points = Guilliman + an extra HQ/lieutenant) (448pts / 2000pts = ~20% of the total points)

 

Close Combat:

       I'm hoping just to cut the losses on getting into close combat and accept the struggle. Any unit that is going to want to assault the list will be better purposed for that the list's in close combat anyways. So I feel like instead of playing to the strength of the opponents list, if I just cut all close combat, and played more into the list's own strengths, it would be more efficient. Plus if anything wants to get close it will be improving the gun line's own output somewhat by entering 24" range for rapid fire weapons, and assault cannons. So I feel like not all hope is lost, but it will definitely be very uphill battle. (Hopefully the extra 2 squads of scouts will help with some buffer).

 

List Alterations:

       Altered the list a little. Trimmed down the HQ's gear, cut the veterans, cut the predator, added two bolter scout squads (as you two fine gentle men had suggested to add to the buffer, or snag an odd objective. Figured they'd be more useful in the long run over the veterans anyways.), added two more devastator squads (takes advantage of chapter tactics a bit more over the predator). Spread the bonus's between the two HQ so sniping the captain isn't so obvious, and won't kill all the buffs. Won't be able to deep strike them to avoid turn 1 sniping, so will probably have to hide each in or behind a razorback, or something turn 1.

 

New Army Stats:

Spoiler

 

New List:

Spoiler

 

Additional Thoughts:

     An alternate thought would be to go salamander's chapter tactics & no longer use the "chapter master" stratagem on the captain to cut down on redundancy? that would mean I could put a little less emphasis on castling around the 2 buff givers, and it would free up those 3 extra command points.

     Raven guard chapter tactics would also be useful. However I feel like it would just be a win more tactic against other gun lines & would make games an auto lose if anything touched the gun line and made it so that it couldn't shoot. Like one 30 unit squad of gaunts or boyz having spread out in a thin line touching all the squads so that they can no longer shoot.

      Another thought might be to cut the list to 1500pts or 1000pts? where the cheaper captain/chapter master & lieutenant would be more effective then guilliman (448pts / 1500pts = ~30% or even 448pts / 1000pts = ~40%) ?

 

Would love to hear what you guys think! Am I way out in left field? Again, any comments, suggestions, or criticisms are greatly appreciated!


Edited by Dandylocks, 26 February 2018 - 10:56 PM.


#12
Tadoule Lake Monster

Tadoule Lake Monster

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I love Bobby G, don't get me wrong, but even in a 2000 points game, he is wayyyy to expensive to field. In a 2500 or more, OK, he can soak up that list and you can still field a lot of death to go around, but less than that I feel like you aren't getting enough other threats on the field, and that your enemy can just focus the Primarch to win the game.

 

Other than that, I like the list, and think it has potential. I am a sucker for Ultramarines, so I would stick with them if I were you anyway. Also, hello fellow Canadian :D


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They know what we are, for they are us. They know the attributes of our armour and our weapons. They also know our tactics and formulae of war, for our beloved primarch has made his codifications available to all his brothers. We never thought we would need to conceal our combat methods from our own kind. Today, we have been disabused of that notion. So we must fight them in ways that they do not expect from us. We must use the unconventional, the improvised and the makeshift. In order to properly honour the combat teachings of Roboute Guilliman, we must cast his rules aside for the day.

 

Aeonid Thiel, during the betrayal at Calth


#13
arigatous

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If you're into making competitive tournament list, you should know that a lot of tournaments forbid to use two detachments of the same type.


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#14
Dandylocks

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@Tadoule Lake Monster. Hey bud! Thanks for the insight, glad I'm not the only one thinking it. And agreed, I think they do look pretty in blue. However I think I might change them to Ravenguard? Feeling a little safer with some bubblewrap.

 

@arigatous. Thanks for the tip! Cut it down to avoid 2 of the same type of detachment.

 

Ended up adding a detachment of Astra Millitarum, ended up solving the buffer issue, giving more units to push to objectives & more CP. So fairly pleased with the idea. Have no experience with guard though. So anything you can offer up about them would help.

And changed to raven guard chapter tactics due to feeling safer with the bubble. Plus makes them a tiny bit more durable / annoying to shoot against.

 

Things I'm happy about. Added buffer units, added auto-cannons, added CP's, added units to play with tactically.

Things I'm not happy about. Loosing the lieutenant reroll. Having more units to give kill points away with.

Things I'm unsure about. 1 unit of scouts, 1 unit of AM heavy weapon's squad, 1 lieutenant. Might cut one of the first two and try bringing back a lieutenant? I like that the scouts would give me instant access outside of deployment for added buffer, setting up early on an objective, or trying to get linebreaker. I like having the extra squad of AM heavy weapons, more survivability so that the commander's orders can be used longer (potentially). I would like having rerolls of 1 to wound as I should be able to match strength/toughnesses to be wounding on a 3+ most of the time, giving a 50% of getting a rerolls most times. However I'm not sure which would be best to keep?

Also I like the idea of having so many drops for deployment to be able to stretch the opponent, create dead zones for deep striking, or fake a castle in a corner while deploying on the other side of the board. I feel like it should be pretty advantageous. However at which point does it start becoming a liability. With kill points, and other such things I could see it potentially costing a few games. What do y'all think? is 19-21 drops too much?

 

Not sure with what regiment to choose for the guard either, but full rerolls to hit on the auto cannons seems pretty good with Cadian's + orders. Along with the Cadian strategem: "overlapping fields of fire".

 

New List:

Spoiler
 

 

So what do you think? Comments, questions, tips, criticisms, suggestions, and love are all welcome! Thanks!


Edited by Dandylocks, 02 March 2018 - 04:07 AM.






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