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C:SM Stratagem Improvements


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Ok so I a bit salty a few months back about C:SM having lackluster stratagems.  I thought about it for a bit and came up with some ways to bring them into line with other codicies in terms of usability and power level.  

 

My thinking came down to widening the scope of certain stratagems so they were usable in more situations.  The big problem I have with Space Marine stratagems if that they have too many requirements that make space marine list building comparable to choking ones self.     So here are a few suggestions that I'd like to see GW consider.  (lol yeah right?)

 

 

Linebreaker Bombardment: 1 cp, Doubles the number of random shots a vindicator can make in the shooting phase or overwatch. 

 

-so for 1 cp you get to be a Leman Russ Demolisher for a turn.  This is still somewhat weakish but at least now you can use this stratagem and get something tangible for it WITHOUT having to take 3 miserably bad vehicles in your list.  Now you need just 1 lousy tank.  There are plenty of club players out there with the odd vindicator that sometimes even sees play.  Lets throw them a bone.   

 

Datalink Telemetry:  Whirlwinds hit automatically and rerolls # of shots.  2cp

 

-Whirlwinds are a bit lackluster since they are meant to clear out hordes but the random shots really hurts.  For 2cp you get a 72" range heavy flamer that rerolls its shots.  WIth this change you can use this stratagem without buying worthless land speeders that die when the enemy looks at them.

 

Cluster Mines: Scout bikes that fell back from CC deal 1d3 mortal wounds. 1cp

 

-I run scout bikers and this stratagem drives me insane.  Why do we pay 1cp for something that only works 5/6 times?  You might say that I'm a salty whiner that sucks at 40k, and you would be right but I don't see other armies with mediocre stratagems that have awkward requirements and then only work 5 out of 6 times.(correct me if Im wrong on this!)  Just try to answer this question.  Name a unit that scout bikers WANT to be in close combat with that is also worth spending 1cp for d3 mortal wounds?  If we are going to use a mediocre stratagem on a unit that is NOT where it should be, it better work 100% of the time.  

 

NEW! Close Combat Mastery: +1 to wound rolls for Vanugard Vets in the fight phase.  

 

Pretty obviously counterpart to Masterful Marksmanship.  Not everyone wants shooty marines and some of us like to get into a good scrap.   Blood Angels gets this army wide, all game, everygame.  Could we get it once a turn on 1 unit if we happen to use vanguard vets?

 

 

Empyric Channelling: Librarians gain +1 to psychic tests(other than smite).  +2 if within 6" of another librarian.  1cp
 
-the idea here is to give everyone with a librarian access to this stratagem.  Who is going to take 3 librarians just to get +2 to cast crappy space marine psychic powers?  I would definately use this stratagem with my 1 libby though.  Casting nullzone on a 7+ is pretty solid.
 
Scions of Guilliman(UM): Start of your turn you use this on any infantry squad holding or contesting an objective, that units gains obsec.  If it already has obsec, it is considered to have a maximum unit size for the purposes of contesting or holding objectives.  2 cp.
 
-ok so GW thinks we will use tacticals if we get to reroll hits once a turn.  First of all, if UM players want rerolls to hit they will get it from Bob G in addition to 4 EXTRA command points not 1 less.  Secondly, who wants rerolls on a unit that is mediocre at best?  Right now tacticals do 1 thing and not very well, sit on objectives.  They might as well be really good at it. 
 
Auspex Scan: Devastator or Centurion Devastator can fire at any unit arriving from DS within 12" of any infantry unit in your army.  3cp
 
-This is one stratagem that I think needed MORE conditions on it because I think it needs to be powerful.  It is still straight up worse than the Eldar Forewarning but now is usuable on a unit of your choosing rather than the crappy scouts that your enemy landed next to.  Oh, and good riddance to the -1 to hit silliness.  Marines got good aim right?
 
Flamecraft(SAL): Infantry or biker unit gains +3" to flamer range and melta weapons gain the melta bonus at any distance during the shooting phase or during overwatch.  1cp
 
-the logic here is to bring back drop pod melta/flamers.  If you think this is OP then please explain to me why webway dark reapers is acceptable.
 
 
I think changes like this would make C:SM more interesting to play and somewhat stronger.  I don't think anything here is OP or silly.  Anyone else got any ideas?
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

 

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Can we not change Auspex Scan? It’s one of the few good generic ones we actually have. And about every codex has a variation on it. If you are curious, it’s basically shooty version of melee interruption
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Abhor the Witch: may be used multiple times in a turn, but subtract 1 from the roll for each use.

 

Having one Deny the Witch roll per psychic phase accomplishes very little.

 

Should we continue to tie Stratagems to specific units at all?  Or at least nearly every stratagem?

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Abhor the Witch: may be used multiple times in a turn, but subtract 1 from the roll for each use.

 

Having one Deny the Witch roll per psychic phase accomplishes very little.

 

Should we continue to tie Stratagems to specific units at all?  Or at least nearly every stratagem?

I think there should be some unit specific stuff but NOT things that are unit specific AND require multiple units or a second type of unit AND things that fail some percentage of the time.  That is just bad design.  

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Abhor the Witch: may be used multiple times in a turn, but subtract 1 from the roll for each use.

 

Having one Deny the Witch roll per psychic phase accomplishes very little.

 

Should we continue to tie Stratagems to specific units at all?  Or at least nearly every stratagem?

I think there should be some unit specific stuff but NOT things that are unit specific AND require multiple units or a second type of unit AND things that fail some percentage of the time.  That is just bad design.  

 

 

Especially if that Strat that already requires you to bring three of the unit and keep them within short distances of each other costs multiple command points as well :wink:

 

Yes, my grudge over Vindicators is always near the surface :tongue.:

Edited by Firepower
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I think we need something more significant than that to bring us in line.

 

2 CP - Annihilation Protocol - An infantry unit may fire all of it's weapons again at the end of the shooting phase. It may also select a different target if it does do.

 

2 CP - Trans-human speed - an infantry or biker unit may charge after advancing. Also, when advancing the unit can always move up to 6"

 

1 CP - Interlocking Tactics - if an enemy unit has already been the target of a shooting attack by a friendly Codex: Space Marine unit, any further friendly units that target the same enemy unit can re roll hit and would rolls of 1.

 

2 CP - Psychic Intuition - any enemy units within 18" of a friendly C:SM Librarian can be targeted during the shooting phase even if no line of sight can be drawn to them. This applies for the remainder of the shooting phase.

 

1 CP - Shatter Defences - Nominate a single Chapter Vindicator - it's shooting profile is changed to 2D3 and it no longer suffers the penalty for moving and shooting.

Edited by Ishagu
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I dont think too much is needed to make marines better.  They still have a huge arsenal to draw upon and very strong characters/buffs.  I dont think GW is likely to make sweeping changes that add tons of new things.  I think they would alter existing stratagems to be more usuable though.

 

I like your Shatter Defenses idea.  Makes me want to play a vindicator!  Linebreaker bombardment makes NOT want to play vindicators.

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I really wished they had made a pool of common stratagems that ALL Adeptus Astartes codices would use and then 10 for each chapter like the BA/DA got. If Black Templars vows are to become stratagems I would like to see them buffing close combat because right we may reach combat but hit like a wet fart.

 

Master of Sanctity (2CP) - Nominate a single <Chaplain> in your army, it becomes the Master of Sanctity and gains the following ability: <Chapter, Infantry> units within 9" gain +1A when they charge.

 

Uphold the Honor of the Emperor (2CP) - A single <Black Templar> unit gains a 5++ when advancing or charging this turn, it may not benefit from cover this turn.

 

Accept any challege (2CP) - A single <Black Templar> unit adds +1 to their hit rolls in close combat.

 

Suffer not the unlcean (3CP) -  Activate this when an enemy unit falls back after being in combat with a <Black Templar, Infantry>, that <Black Templar, Infantry> may attack again before the unit falls back.

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I really wished they had made a pool of common stratagems that ALL Adeptus Astartes codices would use and then 10 for each chapter like the BA/DA got. If Black Templars vows are to become stratagems I would like to see them buffing close combat because right we may reach combat but hit like a wet fart.

 

Master of Sanctity (2CP) - Nominate a single <Chaplain> in your army, it becomes the Master of Sanctity and gains the following ability: <Chapter, Infantry> units within 9" gain +1A when they charge.

 

Uphold the Honor of the Emperor (2CP) - A single <Black Templar> unit gains a 5++ when advancing or charging this turn, it may not benefit from cover this turn.

 

Accept any challege (2CP) - A single <Black Templar> unit adds +1 to their hit rolls in close combat.

 

Suffer not the unlcean (3CP) -  Activate this when an enemy unit falls back after being in combat with a <Black Templar, Infantry>, that <Black Templar, Infantry> may attack again before the unit falls back.

This is really good stuff.  

 

Some speculation...

 

GW's future plans for C:SM is obviously going to be with Primaris because that route sells NEW models to NEW players.  I'd expect to see any future buffs or expansions to Space Marines to be new Primaris units such as dedicated assault units, fast light vehicles, dedicated transports, flyers.  

 

Maybe a Primaris assault unit will upgrade your wet far army into an army that breathes wind of such vulgarity it would impress Papa Nurgle.  

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I would like to see something that benefits troops. It's all very well having making your killiest units even better, but I'd like to see something that reflects marines' battlefield tactics. These are just off the top of my head, but:

 

Suppressive fire (1CP) - Use when a Space Marine Troops unit fires on an enemy unit in cover. In the following turn, that unit suffers a -1 penalty to its hit rolls, and if it moves for any reason it suffers a mortal wound.

 

Sweep and secure (1CP) - Use when a Space Marine Troops unit charges an enemy infantry unit or character within 3" of an objective. At the end of combat the enemy unit must make a leadership check - if it fails, it must fall back a minimum of 3" next turn.

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I like the suggestions you're putting forward. Taking those awful Stratagems that require three of a specific model to work and giving them some utility for players who aren't willing to take three bad models is something that's sorely needed. I notice you didn't touch Orbital Bombardment though. Given that it's been bad in most other editions in it's various forms, it's probably beyond redemption at this point. Removing it altogether and replacing it with something more useful is probably the way to go.

 

 

Scions of Guilliman(UM): Start of your turn you use this on any infantry squad holding or contesting an objective, that units gains obsec.  If it already has obsec, it is considered to have a maximum unit size for the purposes of contesting or holding objectives.  2 cp.
 
-ok so GW thinks we will use tacticals if we get to reroll hits once a turn.  First of all, if UM players want rerolls to hit they will get it from Bob G in addition to 4 EXTRA command points not 1 less.  Secondly, who wants rerolls on a unit that is mediocre at best?  Right now tacticals do 1 thing and not very well, sit on objectives.  They might as well be really good at it.

 

However, I'm not feeling this one. It seems like a downgrade. I don't buy into the reasoning that Ultramarines have access to Guilliman so they don't need the re-rolls, but I do see the logic behind it. For better or worse GW have decided that one of the Ulramarines themes will be re-rolls, more so than other Marine Chapters. Tying that theme into one expensive model that won't be in every list and even when present only covers a small area of the battlefield is imo a bad idea. Especially when the replacement theme is Objective Secured (aka Objectively Worse* :tongue.:).

 

I feel that quite frankly, Objective Secured isn't very good for Marines, Because Marine unit sizes, even maxed out, are too small and most armies can put more Objective Secured models onto an objective than Marines. They just have more Troops models in their lists and that's coming from someone who tends to run at least two maxed units of Troops in his Marine lists. Being able to boost a minimum unit to count as maximum or make the small elite Marine units gain Objective Secured isn't going to change that much. I know for a fact that for me, an Objective Secured stratagem would spend most of it's time with the Orbital Bombardment Stratagem, i.e. in the box.

 

On the other hand, I regularly get use out of the current Scions of Guilliman. It's not the best Stratagem in the world, but it is applicable in almost every game. Troops choices are mandatory and if you want a Troops choice that isn't limited in the targets it can engage then Tactical's are the best option. They're not amazing, far from it, but Scions does make them workable. In addition, Scion's isn't just a boost to Tacticals. It gives re-rolls to Intercessors, so unless you are just taking Scouts as Troops (or you're just taking MSU in the required Troops slots) there is likely to be options to use it for full re-rolls in every game. Finally and IMO most importantly, it gives the same re-rolls as a Captain (i.e. re-roll 1s on Hit rolls) whenever and wherever you want it. I feel that you've completely over-looked this aspect of it and focussed on "Tacticals are bad therefore Tactical Stratagem is bad" (which is to be fair, a logical conclusion to come to). Sure, there is Captains, Chapter Masters and Dreadnoughts to provide the same bonus, but like Guilliman it's tied to specific models and can't be everywhere at once. Having the freedom to put those re-rolls where they are needed on the battlefield opens up much more diverse play styles (very fitting for the Ultramarines) beyond just clustering a gun line around buffing models. Given the fluid nature of objective capturing in half the Matched Play missions (i.e. Maelstrom of War) this is a useful ability. Whether it's giving full re-rolls to a Troops unit disembarking from a transport into rapid fire range or allowing a deep strikeing, flanking or backfield unit to get access to re-rolling 1s, I've got milleage out of Scions in every game of 8th I've played with Ultramarines.

 

If it's going to be buffed (and I wouldn't say no to a bit of buffing as it's far from the most powerful Stratagem out there) I'd like to see it's current theme expanded by making it even more versatile. Removing the Infantry and Biker clause from the Stratagem seems like a good place to start. It would give the Stratagem more untility while not massively increasing Marine's power level (we already have potential re-roll 1s on vehicles from Captains etc) and lets face it, many Marine vehicles need some love. This would help vehicles a little bit, even if it is just for one <Chapter>.

 

* hyperbole, but I couldn't resist the pun.

Edited by Toxichobbit
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It occurs to me there should be a Primaris- Only stratagem. As reward for those investing in a handicapped force organization but making GW gobs of money :D

 

It would also soothe suspicions about Primaris becoming the only Space Marines moving forward. ;)

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It occurs to me there should be a Primaris- Only stratagem. As reward for those investing in a handicapped force organization but making GW gobs of money :biggrin.:

 

It would also soothe suspicions about Primaris becoming the only Space Marines moving forward. :wink:

Primaris Gamer 1 cp.  Get a 5% discount on your next purchase of Primaris Marines!

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After years of hearing about how Custodes fight like independent lions and Astartes like a pack of wolves, I was pleasantly surprised to see the custodians get Unleash the Lions: a fun and fluffy stratagem.

 

Now I want to see the mirror for the Astartes.

 

Pack of Wolves (Or Battle-Brotherhood if Space Wolves have a monopoly on the word "wolf"), 1CP: The warriors of the Adeptus Astartes prowl the battlefield like a pack of hungry wolves, ruthlessly exploiting openings created by their battle-brothers and relentlessly providing cover and protection to those around them.  Select an <Infantry>, <Biker>, or <Dreadnought> <Adeptus Astartes> unit.  If this unit declares  attacks at an enemy unit that suffered an unsaved wound caused by an <Adeptus Astartes> unit during this phase, then add 1 to hit and wound rolls to those attacks until the end of the phase. 

 

Or something.

Edited by Brother Captain Ed
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After years of hearing about how Custodes fight like independent lions and Astartes like a pack of wolves, I was pleasantly surprised to see the custodians get Unleash the Lions: a fun and fluffy stratagem.

 

Now I want to see the mirror for the Astartes.

 

Pack of Wolves (Or Battle-Brotherhood if Space Wolves have a monopoly on the word "wolf"), 1CP: The warriors of the Adeptus Astartes prowl the battlefield like a pack of hungry wolves, ruthlessly exploiting openings created by their battle-brothers and relentlessly providing cover and protection to those around them.  Select an <Infantry>, <Biker>, or <Dreadnought> <Adeptus Astartes> unit.  If this unit declares  attacks at an enemy unit that suffered an unsaved wound caused by an <Adeptus Astartes> unit during this phase, then add 1 to hit and wound rolls to those attacks until the end of the phase. 

 

Or something.

I can appreciate the need to replicate fluff but this is abusively OP.  Cadians have a version of this that is only +1 to hit and it costs 2 cp.  Just think about what this stratagem could do with Masterful Marksmanship or Flamecraft?  

 

I think space marine stratagems should directed towards utility that befits their enormous range of models/units.  The right tools for the right situation.  I really dont like design that is turbocharged mathhammer.   If you want to go in that direction why not just give us VoTLW?    

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I can appreciate the need to replicate fluff but this is abusively OP.

...I don't care?

 

 

Well...there's something to be said for candor, if nothing else.

 

Although this is a wish listing thread, so there's nothing saying you can't wish for ice cream every meal of the day. 

Edited by Firepower
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Well...there's something to be said for candor, if nothing else.

 

Although this is a wish listing thread, so there's nothing saying you can't wish for ice cream every meal of the day. 

 

 

Do you want to puke in your helmet Templar? Not even an Astartes preomnor could filter out that much ice cream.

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I approve of the concept of the changes but don't necessarily agree with some.

 

As an example, changing the Ultramarines one is unneeded. Allowing a Tactical/Intercessor squad to reroll hits (or any other unit reroll 1s) is great and most importantly part of the problem in the game is every army having Guilliman. The reasoning that it should be changed because Ultramarines have Guilliman misses the point.

 

Being able to allow models to reroll misses AWAY from a Captain makes Ultramarines more flexible in army build and deployment. I often combine it with the Hellfire Stratagem for maximum damage.

 

I will probably do my Stratagem changes alongside broader changes I'd like changed but I applaud the effort.

 

I wouldn't change things like Auspex Scan like you have either. Devastator squads are normally protected in a deployment zone so fast attackers and deepstrikers can't assault them easily etc. So it just won't get used as often.

 

What we need is more utility in our Stratagems rather than less units who can use them.

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If you compare C:SM strats to C:CSM ones, the Chaos ones have far fewer that are tied directly to individual unit types.  Our improved wound roll one applies only to Sternguard, but the Chaos one -- VotLW -- can be used on any infantry unit (even Cultists!  Who are not actually veterans of the Long War!).  So I'm with Idaho.    I don't want more unit-linked strats, I want more strats that can be used army-wide.

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I approve of the concept of the changes but don't necessarily agree with some.

 

As an example, changing the Ultramarines one is unneeded. Allowing a Tactical/Intercessor squad to reroll hits (or any other unit reroll 1s) is great and most importantly part of the problem in the game is every army having Guilliman. The reasoning that it should be changed because Ultramarines have Guilliman misses the point.

 

Being able to allow models to reroll misses AWAY from a Captain makes Ultramarines more flexible in army build and deployment. I often combine it with the Hellfire Stratagem for maximum damage.

 

I will probably do my Stratagem changes alongside broader changes I'd like changed but I applaud the effort.

 

I wouldn't change things like Auspex Scan like you have either. Devastator squads are normally protected in a deployment zone so fast attackers and deepstrikers can't assault them easily etc. So it just won't get used as often.

 

What we need is more utility in our Stratagems rather than less units who can use them.

I specifically worded Auspex scan so that the devs can fire if an enemy deepstriker lands within 12" of any astartes infantry.  If the enemy lands near your scout screen.. they get blasted by devastators.   Range and LOS still apply though.  

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