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Twin Autocannon build for Dreads/Ven Dreads


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#1
Shagah

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So does anyone use this anymore?

 

I have two but will not see them again until Dec this year (living overseas for a bit), and I did not get a chance to try them before I went away.

I am hearing a lot about the Twin Las/ML build, and was wondering if the Double Twin AC build is being used at all?

I understand why the Twin Las/ML build is needed with the ability to reliably deal to vehs at range, but the Double Twin AC build I would have thought still offered a lot, although a lot less than if you could still Psybolt it!

Is the fact you cannot do this really holding it back from being the Jack of all Trades it used to be?

 

I would be interested in anyone's actual game experience with it in the current edition.

 

Just to be clear I am talking about the old school Psyflemen build without the Psybolts!



#2
Capt. Mytre

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So does anyone use this anymore?

 

I have two but will not see them again until Dec this year (living overseas for a bit), and I did not get a chance to try them before I went away.

I am hearing a lot about the Twin Las/ML build, and was wondering if the Double Twin AC build is being used at all?

I understand why the Twin Las/ML build is needed with the ability to reliably deal to vehs at range, but the Double Twin AC build I would have thought still offered a lot, although a lot less than if you could still Psybolt it!

Is the fact you cannot do this really holding it back from being the Jack of all Trades it used to be?

 

I would be interested in anyone's actual game experience with it in the current edition.

 

Just to be clear I am talking about the old school Psyflemen build without the Psybolts!

 

It isn't the absolute vehicle killer it was, given how previous editions worked. Better as TEQ/Light and Medium vehicle killer now. Cost wise, still doesn't perform as well as a lascannon/MS dread, but is more versatile.



#3
Gentlemanloser

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A Doomglaive is better.

 

It's cheaper, and the only difference is you lose 24" and 2 shots.

 

But gain a devastating Melee weapon.


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QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#4
Reclusiarch Darius

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Yeah agree with both those opinions. 

 

For my money, Venerable with missile launcher+twin lascannon is the go-to anti-tank platform in 8th. Nothing inside our codex is going to beat it on effectiveness. I'd say it is a tad overpriced compared to other options in other armies, but GK don't get long range heavy weapons like this anywhere else.

 

Doomglaive is like a cheap Dreadknight that hits on a 2+ in melee. I like mine, but I will probably be retiring him for another two Venerables (I'm cutting my Purgators as well to make the change, because more Strikes is just better).

 

Twin autocannons would be somewhat better if we could get psybolt ammo in 8th (ie put it up to Strength 8). If that were possible, I could see it being a viable alternative to the missile+las RifleDread (less spike damage, but more consistent). As is, the S7 holds it back. Against T7/8 targets you want S8/9 and D6 damage just has bigger blowouts when they fail their save. 2 damage a pop isn't bad, but autocannons are far less likely to take out their target in a single turn.


"Already, you exalt me for my triumphs, when I ask only that you remember me for my treacheries.
Victory is nothing more than survival. It carries no weight of honour or worth beyond what we ascribe to it.
If you wish to grow wise, learn why brothers betray brothers."

Grand Master Khyron, Eighth Brotherhood

"One unbreakable shield against the coming darkness, One last blade, forged in defiance of fate,
Let them be my legacy to the galaxy I conquered. And my final gift to the species I failed."

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#5
TheCastigator

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@Darius — What does your list end up looking like? At 185 a pop, that would seem to make the usual points cramming even harder. I love dreads, but haven’t wanted to drop my 8 man paladin squad I run with draigo.

#6
Reclusiarch Darius

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At 2k my current build is:

 

Battalion

- GMDK, greatsword, heavy psycannon, gatling psilencer, 'Sanctuary', Warlord (First Into The Fray)

- GMDK, greatsword, heavy psycannon, gatling psilencer, 'Gate'

- 2x 10 Strikes w/falchions, 'Hammerhand'

- 5x Strikes w/falchions, 'Vortex'

 

Vanguard:

- Brother-Captain w/relic hammer, 'Gate'

- 4x Venerable Dread w/twin lascannon+missile, 'Astral Aim'

 

I actually need to get more games in, because I've mostly been focused on 30k lately. To clarify, in this list the 'Vortex' squad doesn't go in Reserve, I use it for alpha denial in my DZ, and then the plan would be to 'Gate' them into position with the Brother-Captain Turn 1 (as he's probably going to be out of Deny range). 

 

I've been tossing around with going double Battalion, but the issue is you can't put all the Strikes in Reserve because some of them have to start on table. I'm considering just taking three Venerables (as four may be overkill), and taking a squad of Purgators as a backfield drop. They might not be as efficient as another 5 man squad of falchion Strikes, but they are a nice source of cheap anti-infantry dakka that can stay at 24".


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"Already, you exalt me for my triumphs, when I ask only that you remember me for my treacheries.
Victory is nothing more than survival. It carries no weight of honour or worth beyond what we ascribe to it.
If you wish to grow wise, learn why brothers betray brothers."

Grand Master Khyron, Eighth Brotherhood

"One unbreakable shield against the coming darkness, One last blade, forged in defiance of fate,
Let them be my legacy to the galaxy I conquered. And my final gift to the species I failed."

Inscription upon the Arcus Daemonica, attributed to the Emperor of Mankind

#7
Mr. Shine

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Why would you not go twin lascannon and twin autocannon? So far as I can see, rate of fire has the twin autocannon on average pulling slightly ahead of krak against T8/2+ and otherwise convincingly outperforming it. Similarly it outperforms frag across the board.

#8
Danarc

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Drop the 4th dreddy for a full psylencer purgation squad could be a good idea. Specially with cap. the doubled range of smite allows all the units shooting infantry with the psychic power (that against demons it is very scary) and psylencer while lascannons and missiles are managing other threats. the only problem is that a GM could be useful for the re roll. 

 

How much the twin autocannon costs?



#9
Gentlemanloser

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IIRC the ML is 25, the Twin Auto is 33.

 

A Twin Auto / Twin LC Ven Dread is 193.  I think I'd def prefer a Doomglaive over that. ;)


QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#10
Reclusiarch Darius

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Why would you not go twin lascannon and twin autocannon? So far as I can see, rate of fire has the twin autocannon on average pulling slightly ahead of krak against T8/2+ and otherwise convincingly outperforming it. Similarly it outperforms frag across the board. 

 

Perhaps, but in my experience you want as many D6 damage wounds on target as possible. 2 damage doesn't mean anything to most tanks and superheavies. I agree the twin autocannon is more consistent, but having said that, it's also not going to potentially do 6 damage per shot. Which does happen, and its the entire reason you see lascannon or their equivalent on every platform you can take in most armies. I really don't care about frag, I'd basically never fire it in frag mode in a normal game. I will say I think the missile launcher is stupidly overpriced, it should be two shots.

Drop the 4th dreddy for a full psylencer purgation squad could be a good idea. Specially with cap. the doubled range of smite allows all the units shooting infantry with the psychic power (that against demons it is very scary) and psylencer while lascannons and missiles are managing other threats. the only problem is that a GM could be useful for the re roll. 

 

I've found Purgators useful, although probably not two squads worth. I do find my list struggles to do anything to vehicles etc at range. Two Venerables do basically all the work, so going up to 3-4 seems to be the way to get around that issue. I agree they're absurdly priced, but we lack any other viable options IMO.

 

I like my Doomglaive, but I do see him becoming rapidly useless against horde armies. He's way better carving up elite units and other multi-wound single targets. The big missing component for GK is a long range S6 shooting platform. Everything we have is short/medium range, and our long range is anti-tank. It's why I've been considering an Ad Mech Spearhead/Battalion to team up with my alpha strike.


"Already, you exalt me for my triumphs, when I ask only that you remember me for my treacheries.
Victory is nothing more than survival. It carries no weight of honour or worth beyond what we ascribe to it.
If you wish to grow wise, learn why brothers betray brothers."

Grand Master Khyron, Eighth Brotherhood

"One unbreakable shield against the coming darkness, One last blade, forged in defiance of fate,
Let them be my legacy to the galaxy I conquered. And my final gift to the species I failed."

Inscription upon the Arcus Daemonica, attributed to the Emperor of Mankind

#11
TheCastigator

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I was running two dreads at the start of he edition but found they were heavily targeted or didn’t do the damage I needed. I switched to 3 razors. I’ve recently been running a cadian guard spearhead with 2 manticores and a basilisk. Rerolling natively is awesome, but it is painfully static. I was munched by Eldar last week, though my gk made it respectable. Alaitoc is brutal.

#12
Mr. Shine

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Perhaps, but in my experience you want as many D6 damage wounds on target as possible. 2 damage doesn't mean anything to most tanks and superheavies. I agree the twin autocannon is more consistent, but having said that, it's also not going to potentially do 6 damage per shot. Which does happen, and its the entire reason you see lascannon or their equivalent on every platform you can take in most armies. I really don't care about frag, I'd basically never fire it in frag mode in a normal game. I will say I think the missile launcher is stupidly overpriced, it should be two shots.


It may not be doing D6 damage per shot, but weapon for weapon the twin autocannon's doing 2 damage per shot with four shots. You're assuming your single missile launcher shot hits and wounds to deal its D6 damage. Apply the same assumption to the twin autocannon and you have a guaranteed 8 damage. The missile launcher is a suboptimal choice.

#13
Helycon

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Perhaps, but in my experience you want as many D6 damage wounds on target as possible. 2 damage doesn't mean anything to most tanks and superheavies. I agree the twin autocannon is more consistent, but having said that, it's also not going to potentially do 6 damage per shot. Which does happen, and its the entire reason you see lascannon or their equivalent on every platform you can take in most armies. I really don't care about frag, I'd basically never fire it in frag mode in a normal game. I will say I think the missile launcher is stupidly overpriced, it should be two shots.

It may not be doing D6 damage per shot, but weapon for weapon the twin autocannon's doing 2 damage per shot with four shots. You're assuming your single missile launcher shot hits and wounds to deal its D6 damage. Apply the same assumption to the twin autocannon and you have a guaranteed 8 damage. The missile launcher is a suboptimal choice.
That's nonsense. The profiles for the weapons aren't even the same, so you're starting off with apples and oranges. Sure, the launcher may wiff, but so can all the shots for the AC. It has lower strength, so it generally wounds targets less, especially since this scenario was pointing it at T7+ , meaning that your shots will do nothing a lot of the time. Then comes AP, which is also one worse, meaning your chance to actually indict damage after the wounding is lower as well. Since most vehicles don't have invulnerable saves, or if they do, are 5++, the AP is rarely wasted. A missile launcher will statistically do 3,5 damage. 2 AC shots need to come through for this to happen and top it. That chance is relatively low.

Mind you, this was quick logic, but a missile launcher had a lot higher of a chance to actually do anything and do it better, for less points.

#14
Mr. Shine

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That's nonsense. The profiles for the weapons aren't even the same, so you're starting off with apples and oranges. Sure, the launcher may wiff, but so can all the shots for the AC. It has lower strength, so it generally wounds targets less, especially since this scenario was pointing it at T7+ , meaning that your shots will do nothing a lot of the time. Then comes AP, which is also one worse, meaning your chance to actually indict damage after the wounding is lower as well. Since most vehicles don't have invulnerable saves, or if they do, are 5++, the AP is rarely wasted. A missile launcher will statistically do 3,5 damage. 2 AC shots need to come through for this to happen and top it. That chance is relatively low.

Mind you, this was quick logic, but a missile launcher had a lot higher of a chance to actually do anything and do it better, for less points.


A twin autocannon has four shots to a missile launcher's one. Against a Land Raider, a missile launcher will do 0.729 damage on average, versus a twin autocannon's 0.741. The gap only widens as the targets get softer. Weight of fire matters.
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#15
Helycon

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That's nonsense. The profiles for the weapons aren't even the same, so you're starting off with apples and oranges. Sure, the launcher may wiff, but so can all the shots for the AC. It has lower strength, so it generally wounds targets less, especially since this scenario was pointing it at T7+ , meaning that your shots will do nothing a lot of the time. Then comes AP, which is also one worse, meaning your chance to actually indict damage after the wounding is lower as well. Since most vehicles don't have invulnerable saves, or if they do, are 5++, the AP is rarely wasted. A missile launcher will statistically do 3,5 damage. 2 AC shots need to come through for this to happen and top it. That chance is relatively low.

Mind you, this was quick logic, but a missile launcher had a lot higher of a chance to actually do anything and do it better, for less points.

A twin autocannon has four shots to a missile launcher's one. Against a Land Raider, a missile launcher will do 0.729 damage on average, versus a twin autocannon's 0.741. The gap only widens as the targets get softer. Weight of fire matters.
Making the ML cheaper with points per wound. And since it's cheaper, you can add more too, adding your own weight of fire.

#16
Mr. Shine

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Making the ML cheaper with points per wound. And since it's cheaper, you can add more too, adding your own weight of fire.


If you're only shooting the likes of Land Raiders, sure. Once you're shooting Predators and below the twin autocannon pulls even and then gets more efficient than the missile launcher.

#17
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Do people still take land raiders? I’ve only seen one in all my games this edition. Against a Russ the ac suffers, but I have to agree that the weight of dice makes it more attractive than the missile launcher.

The other list I’ve run, and this comparison makes even less sense, is two razors and two stormhawks w/ac, lastalon, and sky hammers. They put in WORK vs Eldar and at fine against everything else. The a brutal harassing unit and always draw an inordinate amount of attention. They’ve been much better than people have given credit for, though admittedly there are a ton of flying units in my opponents’ lists.

#18
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How do you guys get MLs for your dreadnoughts? I like the venerable model a lot better than the “regular” dreadnought which obviously doesn’t come with a ML or auto cannon arm, and they never seem to be up of sale on eBay.. avoiding FW stuff as well (too expensive) any suggestions?

Edited by Soder, 23 February 2018 - 03:24 AM.


#19
Reclusiarch Darius

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I was running two dreads at the start of he edition but found they were heavily targeted or didn’t do the damage I needed. I switched to 3 razors. I’ve recently been running a cadian guard spearhead with 2 manticores and a basilisk. Rerolling natively is awesome, but it is painfully static. I was munched by Eldar last week, though my gk made it respectable. Alaitoc is brutal. 

 

You need to hide them behind LOS blocking terrain. Only one has to pop out from cover on Turn 1 if you get the other one to 'Astral Aim'.

It may not be doing D6 damage per shot, but weapon for weapon the twin autocannon's doing 2 damage per shot with four shots. You're assuming your single missile launcher shot hits and wounds to deal its D6 damage. Apply the same assumption to the twin autocannon and you have a guaranteed 8 damage. The missile launcher is a suboptimal choice. 

 

It's a pretty safe assumption (even with my propensity to roll 1's to hit). Dread hits on 2's, wounds on 3's versus most vehicles (T8 its still on 4's which I can accept). I disagree, I think autocannon is suboptimal because it doesn't wound or get through their armour save as often by comparison, so the extra shots and potential damage is wasted.

If you're only shooting the likes of Land Raiders, sure. Once you're shooting Predators and below the twin autocannon pulls even and then gets more efficient than the missile launcher. 

 

Sure but even there, the -1 on the autocannon means they pass more saves. I'm happy to trade a little efficiency for more reliable wounding and damage.

Do people still take land raiders? I’ve only seen one in all my games this edition. Against a Russ the ac suffers, but I have to agree that the weight of dice makes it more attractive than the missile launcher.

 

Yeah, CSM players do. Russes and Superheavies are the other targets that autocannon largely does jack to.

The other list I’ve run, and this comparison makes even less sense, is two razors and two stormhawks w/ac, lastalon, and sky hammers. They put in WORK vs Eldar and at fine against everything else. The a brutal harassing unit and always draw an inordinate amount of attention. They’ve been much better than people have given credit for, though admittedly there are a ton of flying units in my opponents’ lists. 

 

I've found Stormhawks and Razorbacks incredibly mediocre. They do have weight of dice, but their awful Ballistic Skill negates it. You're always on at least -1 for moving, and against ground targets the Hawks are -2 to hit.


"Already, you exalt me for my triumphs, when I ask only that you remember me for my treacheries.
Victory is nothing more than survival. It carries no weight of honour or worth beyond what we ascribe to it.
If you wish to grow wise, learn why brothers betray brothers."

Grand Master Khyron, Eighth Brotherhood

"One unbreakable shield against the coming darkness, One last blade, forged in defiance of fate,
Let them be my legacy to the galaxy I conquered. And my final gift to the species I failed."

Inscription upon the Arcus Daemonica, attributed to the Emperor of Mankind

#20
TheCastigator

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Your only at -2 if you’re firing the Icarus or sky hammer at a ground target. So you’re hitting on 4s usually and 3s against flying units, which will only get more prevalent. With tau, de and necrons.

It’s a bit situational, but the Stormhawk can definitely do some damage, esp if you move them as you deep strike/gate a reroll bubble around.

Edited by TheCastigator, 24 February 2018 - 05:55 AM.


#21
Reclusiarch Darius

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Your only at -2 if you’re firing the Icarus or sky hammer at a ground target. So you’re hitting on 4s usually and 3s against flying units, which will only get more prevalent. With tau, de and necrons. 

 

Yeah which is precisely my issue. Stormhawks aren't cheap or accurate, even not configured to hunt other Flying units (which defeats the purpose IMO). I personally find Flyers are a relative rarity, and Venerable Dreads hit them on 3's anyway.

 

Since the Flyer nerf with CA, I've seen barely any. It's very army specific.


"Already, you exalt me for my triumphs, when I ask only that you remember me for my treacheries.
Victory is nothing more than survival. It carries no weight of honour or worth beyond what we ascribe to it.
If you wish to grow wise, learn why brothers betray brothers."

Grand Master Khyron, Eighth Brotherhood

"One unbreakable shield against the coming darkness, One last blade, forged in defiance of fate,
Let them be my legacy to the galaxy I conquered. And my final gift to the species I failed."

Inscription upon the Arcus Daemonica, attributed to the Emperor of Mankind

#22
Godhead

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I've been kitting mine out with a twin las and twin auto cannon.  It gives me 6 shots, two las and 4 autocannon shots.  It's been really effective in popping vehicles the games I've played.  I really like the autocannon quite a bit more than ML as second arm.


.. Then the earth shook and split asunder, and the sky filled with lightning, Everyone knew the Space Wolves had arrived....


#23
Reclusiarch Darius

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With the advent of the Knight Armigers, I think our Venerable Dreads are out of a job. I'm still waiting to see if GW overcosts them though.


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"Already, you exalt me for my triumphs, when I ask only that you remember me for my treacheries.
Victory is nothing more than survival. It carries no weight of honour or worth beyond what we ascribe to it.
If you wish to grow wise, learn why brothers betray brothers."

Grand Master Khyron, Eighth Brotherhood

"One unbreakable shield against the coming darkness, One last blade, forged in defiance of fate,
Let them be my legacy to the galaxy I conquered. And my final gift to the species I failed."

Inscription upon the Arcus Daemonica, attributed to the Emperor of Mankind

#24
Corvus Fortis

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With the advent of the Knight Armigers, I think our Venerable Dreads are out of a job. I'm still waiting to see if GW overcosts them though.

 

Not at all. Armigers are so-so for what they do. I'm sure we won't see them much unless they are extra-cheap or have option for gun instead of sword. Right now they are faster NDKS without ability to DS and only one gun. No cheap ways of rerolls either. Shooty VenDreads are WAAAAAY better.



#25
Gentlemanloser

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29" Melta threat range?

 

They also have a carapace gun, I've seen two different options.


QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.




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