Old Fart versus New World; an Ongoing Saga

[AlmightyWalrus]

It's worth pointing out that the Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought, by virtue of being a character, can acces Relics, so you can take the 2+ armour to get your ChapDread a better save on top of his other advantages.

[Schlitzaf]

So how has anyone tried the various theory lists in the thread?

[Crusader_Aleister]

I've been lurking this thread, and have came up with the following list that I am painting.  I didn't go with melee Crusaders because I feel like they don't do enough.  My melee units are Characters, Dreadnoughts, Terminators, and Centurions.  I'm a new player, would appreciate C&C.  This is just a basic list, I have it pointed out to 2495 but I may not have it all in my memory.

 

Captain with Primarch's Wrath and PS

Lieutenant with Stormbolter, Crusader's Helm, Warlord: Storm of Fire

2x 5-man Crusader squads with CombiPlas, Plasmagun, Lascannon

1x 5-man Crusader squad with CombiPlas, Plasmagun, Heavy Bolter

 

Helbrecht

Emperor's Champion

5 Assault Terminators with 2 TH/SH, 3 LC

5 Assault Terminators with 3 TH/SH, 2 LC

5 Tactical Terminators with Assault Cannon

 

Chaplain with Jump Pack, Storm Bolter

Lieutenant with Jump Pack, Teeth of Terra (hoping to fit in Storm Shield if March FAQ drops points on some things like it should)

Redemptor Dreadnought - 2x Onslaught, Heavy Bolters

Contemptor Dreadnought - Multi-Melta

3 Assault Centurions

 

2x Razorbacks with Heavy Bolters (a good bit cheaper than Assault Cannon)

Land Raider Crusader

 

 

The plan is to put Helbrecht, Emp Champ, 5 Crusaders, and Centurions in the LRC and drive it into my enemies somewhat.  Hoping to use the Centurions and 2 HQs to block the way to my Crusaders and LRC, but if not at least the LRC has Assault Launchers and can soak up some overwatch.  Razorbacks with Crusaders and non-Jump Pack HQs will be a mobile gunline that can either team up with the LRC guys or hit other areas.  I will be using the Tactical Terminators, Chaplain with Storm Bolter, and Lieutenant with Teeth of Terra to find an area to exploit, clearing chaff before the Assault Terminators come in to punch holes in tanks.  Both of my Dreadnoughts will serve as countercharge units if needed, otherwise the Redemptor is a gunboat and the Contemptor can punch holes in tanks.

[Sete]

I cannot give any advice, havent played for over a year. But i like the thread title. Thats it.

[Medjugorje]

I've been lurking this thread, and have came up with the following list that I am painting.  I didn't go with melee Crusaders because I feel like they don't do enough.  My melee units are Characters, Dreadnoughts, Terminators, and Centurions.  I'm a new player, would appreciate C&C.  This is just a basic list, I have it pointed out to 2495 but I may not have it all in my memory.

 

Captain with Primarch's Wrath and PS

Lieutenant with Stormbolter, Crusader's Helm, Warlord: Storm of Fire

2x 5-man Crusader squads with CombiPlas, Plasmagun, Lascannon

1x 5-man Crusader squad with CombiPlas, Plasmagun, Heavy Bolter

 

Helbrecht

Emperor's Champion

5 Assault Terminators with 2 TH/SH, 3 LC

5 Assault Terminators with 3 TH/SH, 2 LC

5 Tactical Terminators with Assault Cannon

 

Chaplain with Jump Pack, Storm Bolter

Lieutenant with Jump Pack, Teeth of Terra (hoping to fit in Storm Shield if March FAQ drops points on some things like it should)

Redemptor Dreadnought - 2x Onslaught, Heavy Bolters

Contemptor Dreadnought - Multi-Melta

3 Assault Centurions

 

2x Razorbacks with Heavy Bolters (a good bit cheaper than Assault Cannon)

Land Raider Crusader

 

 

The plan is to put Helbrecht, Emp Champ, 5 Crusaders, and Centurions in the LRC and drive it into my enemies somewhat.  Hoping to use the Centurions and 2 HQs to block the way to my Crusaders and LRC, but if not at least the LRC has Assault Launchers and can soak up some overwatch.  Razorbacks with Crusaders and non-Jump Pack HQs will be a mobile gunline that can either team up with the LRC guys or hit other areas.  I will be using the Tactical Terminators, Chaplain with Storm Bolter, and Lieutenant with Teeth of Terra to find an area to exploit, clearing chaff before the Assault Terminators come in to punch holes in tanks.  Both of my Dreadnoughts will serve as countercharge units if needed, otherwise the Redemptor is a gunboat and the Contemptor can punch holes in tanks.

very interesting things... I havent played such things like this....  I Think a Crusaderstorm with the castellan needs a buff for to hit rolls .. maybe the dreads-stratagem?

[Crusader_Aleister]

 

I've been lurking this thread, and have came up with the following list that I am painting.  I didn't go with melee Crusaders because I feel like they don't do enough.  My melee units are Characters, Dreadnoughts, Terminators, and Centurions.  I'm a new player, would appreciate C&C.  This is just a basic list, I have it pointed out to 2495 but I may not have it all in my memory.

 

Captain with Primarch's Wrath and PS

Lieutenant with Stormbolter, Crusader's Helm, Warlord: Storm of Fire

2x 5-man Crusader squads with CombiPlas, Plasmagun, Lascannon

1x 5-man Crusader squad with CombiPlas, Plasmagun, Heavy Bolter

 

Helbrecht

Emperor's Champion

5 Assault Terminators with 2 TH/SH, 3 LC

5 Assault Terminators with 3 TH/SH, 2 LC

5 Tactical Terminators with Assault Cannon

 

Chaplain with Jump Pack, Storm Bolter

Lieutenant with Jump Pack, Teeth of Terra (hoping to fit in Storm Shield if March FAQ drops points on some things like it should)

Redemptor Dreadnought - 2x Onslaught, Heavy Bolters

Contemptor Dreadnought - Multi-Melta

3 Assault Centurions

 

2x Razorbacks with Heavy Bolters (a good bit cheaper than Assault Cannon)

Land Raider Crusader

 

 

The plan is to put Helbrecht, Emp Champ, 5 Crusaders, and Centurions in the LRC and drive it into my enemies somewhat.  Hoping to use the Centurions and 2 HQs to block the way to my Crusaders and LRC, but if not at least the LRC has Assault Launchers and can soak up some overwatch.  Razorbacks with Crusaders and non-Jump Pack HQs will be a mobile gunline that can either team up with the LRC guys or hit other areas.  I will be using the Tactical Terminators, Chaplain with Storm Bolter, and Lieutenant with Teeth of Terra to find an area to exploit, clearing chaff before the Assault Terminators come in to punch holes in tanks.  Both of my Dreadnoughts will serve as countercharge units if needed, otherwise the Redemptor is a gunboat and the Contemptor can punch holes in tanks.

very interesting things... I havent played such things like this....  I Think a Crusaderstorm with the castellan needs a buff for to hit rolls .. maybe the dreads-stratagem?

 

You mean Wisdom of the Ancients?  I have a High Marshall and a Marshall as it is.

[Indefragable]

@Almighty Walrus this is why I've been experimenting with Blood Angel units. I've seen the raw power of things like Death Company and Sanguinary Guard with the proper stratagem support. They are exactly what I've been looking for rules wise. Unless something massive changes with the March FAQ, I'll likely continue to do so. This is of course when playing against opponents who have an optimized force. Right now, Black Templar melee feels like a power maul. It has its uses and isn't to be trifled with. Blood Angel melee feels like a Relic Blade being shot out of a cannon. 

 

 

I do envy our scarlet cousins' power in a scrap, no doubt.  I'm happy they finally have the hitting power they always should have.  Although that doesn't help much with this topic, and I don't have the resources to start a new army

 

Again, my solution to making my army work is not to play someone else's army.

 

Hopping into this pretty late, but as a BA player I can say that the grass can be greener on the other side for sure. Don't get me wrong, the current state of BA is closest to how I've always wanted them to play, and now the rules support that rather than being an obstacle to that playstyle. That being said, I am definitely envious of the Black Templar for many things:

 

• Re-rolls to Charges.
• Many folks seem to lament this, but I can't emphasize how key this is...this allows you to reliably get into the scrap of your choosing. Especially since it guarantees at least one of your units will always go first when you do get it off. That's massive.
• Secondly, this makes BT a better Deep Striking melee army then BA. Yes, I said it. But the key here is that BT can DS units like VV and Hammernators all over the place and reliably get them into combat. Yes, BA have some pretty nasty Strategems, but there's only so many CP in a battle and BA can only use them once per turn...BT can reliably DS+Charge all over the place
• To re-emphasize this point, for an army that wants to be in melee, the ability to reliably get into melee when you want to is about as good of a trait you can have (and it costs 0 extra points or CP)
• Crusader squads:
• they can min-max so well
• big blobs, while slow, are incredibly resilient. Part of the balancing factor of the game is that hardier troops like Space Marines tend to be limited in quantities. Crusader squads directly mess with that formula. "Black Tide" can easily overwhelm an opponents ability to cut down troops in a timely fashion. That part is important because someone will always say "Yea, but they're just SM bodies!" which is true...anything in 8th can be killed with relative effort....but it's the relative part that Crusaders mess with.
• They're Troops. So BT are doing with their obligatory FOC slots what most other armies need Elites or other slots to do...therefore freeing up points for more big guns or flanking units, etc...
• Special Characters
• Again, BA have no shortage of unique, useful, and unnatural characters. However, the BT ones do in 2 characters what BA need several to do...thus you get the 4th u-adjective we don't: utility
• Helbrecht: re-rolls AND +1S, effectively combining a Chapter Master and a Sanguinary Priest
• Grimaldus: re-rolls in Fight phase AND exploding 6's, effectively combining a chaplain and Brother Corbulo
• The Emperor's Champion: character-slaying character with a single job who costs like he has a single job
• Stratagems
• the ability to instant-deny any psychic power on a 4+, no questions asked, can never be underestimated
• Centurion Devastators
• while not the "best" unit in a vacuum, and pricey as heck, where they synergize with BT is that they are a unit that draws fire from both vehicles and infantry.

 

While perhaps not groundbreaking points above, I want to just point out what someone from another stabby power armor force sees when I look at the scions of Sigismund. My perennial frenemy also plays Black Templars in a thousand different list variations (because he changes his mind like a girl changes clothes), so I tons of firsthand knowledge of just how deadly and flexible BT can be.

 

If I had to boil down the biggest advantage(s) or BT into a single statement, it would be that Crusader squads are the best* Troop unit in the game, and as such they free up points and slots for you fill up your list with whatever else you want/need, from big guns to speedy bikes, to a LoW of choice.

 

Said frenemy above has brought everything from min-max Crusader squads in Rhino spam to big Crusader blobs as a core with everything from a Leviathan dread to a Stormraven to a Leviathan in a Stormraven with the points he has leftover. Compare that to my BA where I have to dedicated 50% of my army to the main stabby units I want, while still having to pay a Troop tax.

 

Just thoughts to consider.

[Beerjerker]

TL;DR: This thread has been a terrific read.  Thanks a bunch!

 

I've been absent from 40k for about 20 years.  Not intentionally, just the usual rat race stuff that sidelines hobbies until you barely recall what it was you enjoyed with your spare time.  My interest rekindled late last year, after a fairly severe back injury (all better now, no worries) had me laid up with next to nothing to do.  Got back into the lore from books, and then the miniatures, and now looking to get back into actually playing the game.

 

Way back, in the long long ago, I had a small Space Puppy army.  It was nothing to brag about, but I quite liked those flea-ridden mutts up until they had to go to the pound.  This time around, I wanted to go with a different chapter for my new army.  Considered obscure factions like Raptors or Star Phantoms, but they didn't quite have enough GLORIOUS MELEE COMBAT!

 

So, I'm effectively a n00b again and threads like this have motivated me and given lots to consider.  Thanks a bunch for everyone's contribution to this thread and others like it. 

 

You've converted me to a fanatical Black Templar and my tiny plastic swords are now sworn to purging the galaxy.

[SydonianDragoon404]

@Indefragable

 

I definitely see where you're coming from with re-roll charges and Crusader squads. When it comes to friendly games, I agree with you on most points. However, when your opponents are taking off the gloves, the BA are simply unparalleled with raw killing power. BT gets there, but often times I find that the damage dealt is not up to par against the deadliest and toughest of enemies. Which, if your opponent is taking off the gloves, is all you'll be fighting. 

 

I would also say that you're probably discounting BAs options when it comes to making successful charges. Yes Vanguard Vets, yes hammer nators, who takes those? Not any Blood Angel player that I've seen. Its all about Death Company and Sang Guard. Because they can actually kill things. Whether its through tons and tons of attacks with Death Company, or through pure weight of damage with Sang Guard all having D3 damage weaponry in addition to the Red Thirst. Vanguard Vets and hammer nators do not come anywhere close in terms of pure offensive power, because at end of the day you don't have to worry about defense if your enemy is dead. That is sadly the name of the game now, alpha strike is king. 

 

Also, arguably the most effective melee unit being Death Company, they easily have access to re-rolling failed charges with Lemartes nearby. BA also gets a relic jetpack which allows rerolling failed charges and nullifies overwatch which is extremely important now that the Tau codex is out. This allows your character to get in there somewhat reliably as well. 

 

So, here's my somewhat controversial question for you guys. We can re roll charges. So what? What does that give us, when our enemies often don't die when we engaged them, they simply step out of combat, and then we get shot anyway? Can't always tri-lock them. BA can re roll charges on the units where it actually matters. Did it matter if my bolter Crusader squad made combat with that re-roll? Probably not, because I'm probably not killing anything of note. The Emperor's Champion? Captain Slam puts him to shame, especially when just about every character in the game is running around with a 4+ invulnerable save because GW has seen fit to hand those out like candy. 

 

I affirm that, no, under the current state of the game, in addition to an environment where players are heavily optimizing their lists, re-rolling charges on all infantry and dreadnoughts in the army does not matter. 

 

Also, re-rolling the charge on a deep strike isn't all its hyped up to be. When you deep strike a Death Company squad, use descent of angels for a 3d6 charge that's re-rollable with Lemartes nearby, you are in essence guaranteed a charge on an extremely powerful, pivotal unit. I would take that over denying powers on a 4+ and getting a re roll charge on units that I don't even use it on any day. 

 

I appreciate what you're trying to do, and like I said for friendlier games it makes sense, but right now in my situation and what seems like many others who have to face a meta that is optimizing more than they are fluffing, it doesn't do anything for us. 

[Schlitzaf]

So just to mention a couple things about Crusader Squads; While true it’s not exactly accurate to say that Crusader Squad is the best PA Troop Choice in the game. Grey Hunters and then Intercessors (with Chapter Tactics) are about as good as Crusader Squads. I can show the math for those curious.

 

The biggest thing about Crusader Squads, is their strategic flexibility. A Crusader Squad can fill any desired role required in the army during List Building Stage. On the tabletop they are no different than any other power armored unit in the game persay.

 

The three classic configurations, 5 Man MSU, 6-4 Man Rhino/MidField Support, and 13-15 Man Tide Squads, clock in at 100ish, 150ish and 200ish Points respectively. Each level has it own advantages and disadvantages (a long explanation for curious you can see on my guest articles for Implausible Nature).

 

The other ‘great/best’ PA Troop, Grey Hunters, instead have Tactical flexibility. Intercessors are the same way, and lesser extent GK Strike, DW Kill Teams, EC Noise, and DG Plague. But Crusader and Grey Hunters are significantly cheaper than the latter units.

 

But yes, Crusader Squads are amazing, and the Crusader’s Helm, is one of the best relics in game. The Crusader Squad is the best part of the Black Templar Chapter, mechanically. And no one will deny that. And by math we are as good as Vangaurd Veterans (with Chainswords). And we are able to win the noodle fight because we have more power weapon attacks and wounds that can absorb the reception of charge.

 

Also I was happy we avoided this topic, but sense it’s been mentioned I suppose it’s we should discuss this. 8th is not “Alpha” or bust. Going second in tournament play post approved, has actually higher win rate. What the alpha perception is, folks that spam and use only MSU Squads. Or reliant on the single star, will fold to a good turn one.

 

Sense MSU Squads die to chaff fire, and a single star means all the enemy shooting go pewpew. What is important about that is that you have to be able to take the first blow. The reception of charge or enemy shooting. Here our Crusader Squads in Tides shine. Even our MSU because we can save Points and have a mix of Point units in our armies.

 

However to counter the alpha you need to be able to have your army to be able to properly receive the opponent. Chaff Units are a good example of that. Larger squads like Crusaders are another case in Point. Alpha is not be able end all, it’s just another facet. A facet you have to respect and understand

[Indefragable]

@ SydonianDragoon404

 

Good counter-points, and as I mentioned, there is an intrinsic aspect of the "grass always greener on the other side."

 

The thing with having your big scary DC unit getting DoA and re-rolls from Lemartes is just that...it's your big scary unit. A good opponent plans for that and learns to mitigate that early and often. BT don't have an equivalent unit to DC....so I don't think you should try to build one.

 

My struggle with BA since i got into them 4 years ago has always been knowing when to "go BA" and when to "go SM" since the bulk of BA is pretty much Red Marines. I think BT, obviously, have that same conendrum in spades.

 

In general where I see (and have seen on the TT many a time) the contrast between BA and BT is thus:

 

BA have to go light on Troops (who are usually all shooty) in order to afford Elites (typically stabby). Thus, the "center" is often the weakpoint.

 

BT have more options in terms of Troops, thus allowing them to go light or heavy on Elites/etc... And since BT Troops can be stabby as well, that presents more options. The "center" thus can be a strongpoint of a BT army.

I think of BA as having a weak shield arm, but a :cuss - huge sword arm, while the BT can have a burly full-body shield or a big heavy mace as well.

[redmapa]

I kind of agree that right now our flavor of choppinness leans more towards overwhelming numbers rather than quality, maybe it always did, but the real difference between BA & BT is that the space marine doesnt support close combat and honestly never did. That has been the real problem for the last 3 editions.

[SydonianDragoon404]

Agreed. Right now, the Adeptus Mechanicus has better melee unit than we do. If it werent for Death Company and Sang Guards mobility along side the excellent BA stratagems, I would even say that theyre possibly better than them too. The things Ive seen electro priests do with all of those mortal wounds, then gaining a 3+ invuln afterwards is disgusting.

[ONDIG]

I believe for a good core at 1000pts i been fielding

Helwreckt,EC,Techmarine,Apothecary,x2 units of honor guard

Laz/plaz Razorback,Dread(ML,Assault cannon)

20 man crusader squad ( bolters)

4 man(?) Servitor squad w/ plasma cannons

Ive found Helwreckt and EC are excellent counter assault and w/ Honor guard and apothecary to sponge up xtra wounds it can be Extremely difficult to get the named characters off the table.

The oversized crusader squad is basically area denial and well anything in rapid fire range is gonna have a bad day.Not to mention any unit charging a squad that large(20bolters on overwatch bad news.w/ High Marshalls buff Suicidal)

Granted this is not a fantastic list in n of itself but in the few games ive played once we take an objective its ours.To take it to the next level i need anti armor LRC(naturally) Scorpious whirlwind and or the Deredo (aiolos/anvillus setup) i believe would be nearly sufficient and w/ the techmarine to keep all that heavy metal tip top.

Additionally if one wanted bring the wrath In close combat 3 assault squads w/o jumpacks will cost just around 400pts.30 guys charging enemy positions accompanied by the Master of sanctity maybe not a great strategy but is likely to buy you a rnd or 2 for boardcontrol ,razor rushetc

[SydonianDragoon404]

The main problem with large Crusader squads is that Cenobyte Servitors aren't characters right now, which I hope changes. I would be worried about morale if I were to field anything more than a 7 man squad. 

[ONDIG]

The main problem with large Crusader squads is that Cenobyte Servitors aren't characters right now, which I hope changes. I would be worried about morale if I were to field anything more than a 7 man squad.

Good point about morale.

Last game Alpha legion 1st turn 3 units of bersrkers ripped Crusader squad to shreds!on the plus side due to proximity to Helbrecht the zerk squad leading the charge went from 8 down to 3!I believe i lost my last 4 neophytes to morale(not that it wouldve changed much but fergot ATSKNF)It was disheartening to say the least.But...the slaughter Helbrecht and The EC wrought upon them GLORIOUS!Honor guard and Apothecary mostly were just there .Later same game HH and the Honorguard made a 15 man blob of cultists disappear! Not a huge feat but i thought a blob that size would tie them up for at least another rnd.

The servitors i mention are merely techthrall not cenobytes.i had a vague notion to construct a Techmarine x3 servitor squad (theyre Elites so cp as Vanguard?)Tech to service Vehicles and buff the feeble efforts of the servitors.Even w/6 plasma cannons they are dirt cheap.not the best plan for anti tank but cheap and those 12 extra bodies can be used to camp or maybe swing the tide on late game objectives.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

I recommend aricle from thebrownmagic.com about screening. There is article Where nick plays against BA Where proper screening gives him win.

 

I think that fall 20 Man blob can make some potent screening.

 

Also very popular now are huge blob of cultists/bloodletters/poxwalkers units, And huge blob may counter them well. And even not counter They can be used as screen And stop them from attack more valuable targets.

 

Also I would not underestimate power oś our stratagem.

Most skilled players will abpie deny, And cast powers outside of 24” deny bubble. Our stratagem worka on whole board. And in times that many armies use some shenaengines using warp time, or another spells it is huge And game breaking to stop them.

Also we ignore +2/3 or whatever „to cast” because we have straight 4+ deny.

I know that is topic about pure BT, but Lareoth wrote some nice thing. If we use some SB detachement we have two similiar work stratagems And that is also nice.

And in case of competetive games many players use celestine, And that stratagem is another profit.

[Medjugorje]

If you are playing just fungames you dont really notice this. But its exactly what SynodianDragoon404 said. Its the same experience I have made.

 

The main problem with large Crusader squads is that Cenobyte Servitors aren't characters right now, which I hope changes. I would be worried about morale if I were to field anything more than a 7 man squad. 

 

For that matter i want to try the relic banner

[Brother Talarian]

Relic banner, relic banne, relic banner.

 

75pts you’re immune to leadership tests, it looks awesome, and on a 3+ you act again.

 

I’m sure the three remaining zerkers would have been dead instead of your troops running away.

 

I like the idea of EC and Halbrecht working in tandem with a retinue and an apothecary. I’ve had The combo take our three carnifexes and a Tervigon together. The tyranid player was rather surprised. His carnifexes were all bunched together so... “He’s strength 9!?! That one dude!?”

[Schlitzaf]

Honestly I prefer Warlord with Rites of War. Cenos are only 6 Points. Crusader Helm, and Teeth are my two relics.

[ONDIG]

Relic banner you say?is that an artfact?

And as you said 'in tandem' is the way to go w/ HH and EC.The game i mentioned almost all enemy casualties (2 champions,3 units of zerks and a blob of cultists)were purged by HH,EC and the Honorguard!Definitely taking the Apothecary also as he kept both HH and the Honorguard in the game.

I also learned that even if i cant razorush the enemy line as long as i kept the boys out of line of sight of the big guns the enemy had the daunting task of trying to move my merry band of murder hobos off of key objectives.(good luck!)

I belive another sizable Crusader squad w/additional AT elements holding the line(shooty dreads,whirlwind,laz/plaz MSU) SHOULD be enough to allow Templars to comftrably take all comers.And a Banner.cant forgot that banner!

[AlmightyWalrus]

Just thought I'd mention that rerolls to charge and saving a command point to reroll one die if you get a 5 or a 6 in your first batch gives you a 52% chance to successfully charge from Deep Strike. Compare this to Death Company charging 3D6 with rerolls (a 97% chance) and it's silly. There's no reliability even with the BT Chapter Tactics, and as has been mentioned even if we do get into combat the units just bounce.

 

Death Company, Sanguinary Guard and Slamguinius are making waves in competetive context. Black Templars aren't.

[ONDIG]

Ive learned my lessons on the futility of believin in the GLORIOUS! 1st turn charge. Best thing for assault/deepstrike attempts assume that the charge WILL most likely failing and instead place them in cover (No more dangerous terrain!) In positons that make the opponent react to them.