DC captain vs. Lieutenant

[Montoya]

Hey  all, 

 

This weekend I tried a game with a DC Lieutenant + Lemartes accompanying my DC squad.

 

I liked the idea of the re-roll wounds as Lemartes already let me re-roll hits.

 

In general I've seen people here have been using DC captain rather than Lieutenant, and was curious about everyone's thoughts on the two.     For sure if I didn't have the chaplain there, I'd go with the re-roll to hit first.    The captain can also take a storm shield adding to his survivability.     

 

Any one else tried this or have an opinion?

[Brother Aether]

Hey  all, 

 

This weekend I tried a game with a DC Lieutenant + Lemartes accompanying my DC squad.

 

I liked the idea of the re-roll wounds as Lemartes already let me re-roll hits.

 

In general I've seen people here have been using DC captain rather than Lieutenant, and was curious about everyone's thoughts on the two.     For sure if I didn't have the chaplain there, I'd go with the re-roll to hit first.    The captain can also take a storm shield adding to his survivability.     

 

Any one else tried this or have an opinion?

 

Hi Montoya,

 

I've not had the experience to play post-codex, but my understanding is that the lack of 4++ (from the Iron Halo) and the lack of ability to take specific other options (such as the 3++ Storm Shield) are what swing that choice toward the Captain. That said, I have considered the notion of having a chaplain alongside a Lieutenant with the DC Stratagem for all the re-rolls – kind of like how some people really like a Captain with lightning claws for the reroll hits & wounds.

 

Let me know how it goes...certainly, one could spend the stratagem twice if they wanted to (taking a captain with TH/optional SS and a Lieutenant and giving them both DC) – I don't think there's anything that says you couldn't...

 

The one big issue is that you can't have both of them as warlord, and/or both of them given the same relics. Either way, seems like a nice way to make some relatively low-point hard-hitting HQs!

[Kappel]

 

Hey  all, 

 

This weekend I tried a game with a DC Lieutenant + Lemartes accompanying my DC squad.

 

I liked the idea of the re-roll wounds as Lemartes already let me re-roll hits.

 

In general I've seen people here have been using DC captain rather than Lieutenant, and was curious about everyone's thoughts on the two.     For sure if I didn't have the chaplain there, I'd go with the re-roll to hit first.    The captain can also take a storm shield adding to his survivability.     

 

Any one else tried this or have an opinion?

 

Hi Montoya,

 

I've not had the experience to play post-codex, but my understanding is that the lack of 4++ (from the Iron Halo) and the lack of ability to take specific other options (such as the 3++ Storm Shield) are what swing that choice toward the Captain. That said, I have considered the notion of having a chaplain alongside a Lieutenant with the DC Stratagem for all the re-rolls – kind of like how some people really like a Captain with lightning claws for the reroll hits & wounds.

 

Let me know how it goes...certainly, one could spend the stratagem twice if they wanted to (taking a captain with TH/optional SS and a Lieutenant and giving them both DC) – I don't think there's anything that says you couldn't...

 

The one big issue is that you can't have both of them as warlord, and/or both of them given the same relics. Either way, seems like a nice way to make some relatively low-point hard-hitting HQs!

 

I understand the stratagem as you can only take it on one dude. Unfortunately. It would be awesome, if you could do it to more than one character. So I would love to be wrong. 

[Kallas]

I understand the stratagem as you can only take it on one dude. Unfortunately. It would be awesome, if you could do it to more than one character. So I would love to be wrong.

You are wrong.

 

The Stratagem takes place during army mustering, which makes it exempt from Matched Play's restriction of once per phase because it doesn't occur in a phase.

 

For a similar Stratagem, compare to Forlorn Fury: it also happens outside any specific phase, but it states that it may only be used on a single unit.

[Panzer]

Kallas is right, you can have as many DC Captains as you have CP and Captains in your army. A better comparison than Forlorn Fury would be the vanilla Codex' Chapter Master Stratagem. It's basically the same except that it also says that you can't have two Chapter Master from the same Chapter.

[Kappel]

Fantastic. The more the merrier. 

[Indefragable]

Hmmmm....RAW that may work, but my nose detects the smell of cheddar and brie. I would expect that to get fast-tracked to FAQdom. Enjoy it while it lasts.

[Panzer]

lol it's really not anywhere near cheese. +1 Attack is great and a 6+++ is okay-ish but it's not like we don't need the CP elsewhere.

 

People really need to stop shouting "cheese" whenever they notice something unexpected is actually possible.

Edited February 21, 2018 by sfPanzer

[Kallas]

Hmmmm....RAW that may work, but my nose detects the smell of cheddar and brie. I would expect that to get fast-tracked to FAQdom. Enjoy it while it lasts.

It's the same principle that lets one use multiple Deep Strike Stratagems, such as Strike From The Shadows.

 

You say cheese, but it's spending an extremely limited and high demand (at least for Blood Angels) resource on a pretty small buff on single models.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Montoya:

 

If the Lieutenant's lack of invuln save (and thus, fragility) is the main concern, I think you have 2 options here.

 

1.  If you're putting that much support into your DC, it's likely you have a pretty big mob of them (i'm guessing 10+?). With that many, you should be able to fenagle the bodies such that the Lt. can't be attacked/shot at.

 

2. Another possibility, and this is one I've been getting back to recently, is throw in a small unit of Jump Veterans to take the big shots for the Lt.   They are basically 16 pt. ablative wounds (or whatever the extra cost is with jump packs)

[Panzer]

Yeah a unit of Company Vets with either some Melta to crack open transports/monsters or the cheap Stormbolter for anti-chaff duty is definitely a good idea to protect the Lt. and Lemartes.

I think personally I'd go for Stormbolter+Storm Shield with them. A 5 man unit still has 20 shots at up to 12" and doesn't get wrecked as easily by AP-1 and AP-2 weapons.

Edited February 21, 2018 by sfPanzer

[Damon Nightman]

After playing my first game against Ynnari, I find it incredibly hard to agree with anyone that says anything BA have been able to do ever since I started playing as cheese compared to what others have...

[Brother Aether]

 

it's spending an extremely limited and high demand (at least for Blood Angels) resource on a pretty small buff on single models.

 

 

Yeah – that's where I think it would be a potentially fun thing to do (for example – two DC Captains or a DC captain + Lieut could be quite fun, but it definitely limits the utility of other pieces of the army by forcing you to spend CP on it). Seems like a reasonable tradeoff to me – plus, as Kallas said, if the second model doesn't gain the extra damage/relic that you might otherwise give your warlord, it's not a direct copy of a powerful model.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Brother Aether

[Blackcadian]

I actually really like the idea of a DC Lt, never thought of that! A few times I had my DC bounce off of something a little tougher and past the first round of combat you really notice the absence of Red Thirst. Plus you’ll usually chain back to Lemartes anyway to get his buff, so it wouldn’t be a bother really. Thanks!

[Jorre]

I dont know if you need to make the lieutenant dc to use him like that.

 

Hes probably better off up the back buffing the unit. So take him with the dc but dont waste the command point!

[Montoya]

I dont know if you need to make the lieutenant dc to use him like that.

 

Hes probably better off up the back buffing the unit. So take him with the dc but dont waste the command point!

 

You are correct, don't need to make him DC.  But if I do, then he gets to re-roll charge distances because of Lemartes.

[tychobi]

If supporting the death co is your goal the lieutenant is great. The captain is a force of nature on his own often chasing very different targets than standard death co.

 

I have found the practice of supporting melee combat with 6' aura buffs is cumbersome at best. My experience is not scientific and better players may be able to make their models dance better than I bit I am sick of trying to make it work.

 

Leave the aura buffs with your shooters.

 

Now a hammer lieutenant mini smashypants sounds like it might have merit...

[The Unseen]

If your models are on 32 mm bases, you can chain it without losing any attacks, as long as you line up the character with the nearest point of the target, and send a model to said point.

 

Front model stops just inside 1", your base is ~1.25", 2nd model is just inside 1" to front model, still able to swing, which puts the back edge of the 2nd model over 3" away from the enemy, within 6" of the buff model.

 

Someone in a different thread had a visual that worked really well, but idk where it is.

[Montoya]

If your models are on 32 mm bases, you can chain it without losing any attacks, as long as you line up the character with the nearest point of the target, and send a model to said point.

 

Front model stops just inside 1", your base is ~1.25", 2nd model is just inside 1" to front model, still able to swing, which puts the back edge of the 2nd model over 3" away from the enemy, within 6" of the buff model.

 

Someone in a different thread had a visual that worked really well, but idk where it is.

wow.  For some reason I've missed this in the past.   Need to lay it out to see, but this changes things!!

[tychobi]

If your models are on 32 mm bases, you can chain it without losing any attacks, as long as you line up the character with the nearest point of the target, and send a model to said point.

 

Front model stops just inside 1", your base is ~1.25", 2nd model is just inside 1" to front model, still able to swing, which puts the back edge of the 2nd model over 3" away from the enemy, within 6" of the buff model.

 

Someone in a different thread had a visual that worked really well, but idk where it is.

My bases are old-school and gonna stay that way for now.

 

Besides, More bodies = better results for the points than buff stacking in my opinion. My characters often find things to do all on their own and the aura buffs are often not needed vs many targets. All in all the points investment to superbuff a death co unit comes in at Knight level points. Might kill a knight but will die to any sort of concentrated firepower. For a shooting static unit the aura makes sense but melee is too dynamic and fluid in my experience for aura buffs to pay off. Good points chasing bad in my opinion.

[Kallas]

Someone in a different thread had a visual that worked really well, but idk where it is.

Here you go:

Unit charges.

Model #1 moves to 1" away from Enemy.

Model #2 moves to 1" away from #1.

Model #2 is within 6" of Character.

My bases are old-school and gonna stay that way for now

That actually doesn't matter.

6" (aura)

+1" (Model 1 -> Enemy)

+1" (Model 1 25mm Base)

+1" (Model 2 -> Model 1)

+1" (Model 2 Base)

= 10", enough for a Deep Striking buff

Edited February 26, 2018 by Kallas

[The Unseen]

 

If your models are on 32 mm bases, you can chain it without losing any attacks, as long as you line up the character with the nearest point of the target, and send a model to said point.

 

Front model stops just inside 1", your base is ~1.25", 2nd model is just inside 1" to front model, still able to swing, which puts the back edge of the 2nd model over 3" away from the enemy, within 6" of the buff model.

 

Someone in a different thread had a visual that worked really well, but idk where it is.

My bases are old-school and gonna stay that way for now.

 

Besides, More bodies = better results for the points than buff stacking in my opinion. My characters often find things to do all on their own and the aura buffs are often not needed vs many targets. All in all the points investment to superbuff a death co unit comes in at Knight level points. Might kill a knight but will die to any sort of concentrated firepower. For a shooting static unit the aura makes sense but melee is too dynamic and fluid in my experience for aura buffs to pay off. Good points chasing bad in my opinion.

Ok...

But if your bringing Lemartes for the charge reroll for a DoA play with DC, you might as well get the reroll to hit without losing any attacks?

I'm not suggesting taking 5 characters to buff something like those terrible "tactics" articles from last year.

 

But a deep struck character will often fail a supporting charge, so may as well at least give something their buff.

 

And just for comparision, a unit of 10 DC with just chainswords, with 40 attacks, get either 27 hits without a chaplain, or 36 with one, which is worth a bit more than 3 extra DC.

So I'd say a 30% damage buff, Lemartes own beastly stats, and rerolling a DoA charge is well worth is 129 pt cost.

[tychobi]

 

 

If your models are on 32 mm bases, you can chain it without losing any attacks, as long as you line up the character with the nearest point of the target, and send a model to said point.

 

Front model stops just inside 1", your base is ~1.25", 2nd model is just inside 1" to front model, still able to swing, which puts the back edge of the 2nd model over 3" away from the enemy, within 6" of the buff model.

 

Someone in a different thread had a visual that worked really well, but idk where it is.

My bases are old-school and gonna stay that way for now.

 

Besides, More bodies = better results for the points than buff stacking in my opinion. My characters often find things to do all on their own and the aura buffs are often not needed vs many targets. All in all the points investment to superbuff a death co unit comes in at Knight level points. Might kill a knight but will die to any sort of concentrated firepower. For a shooting static unit the aura makes sense but melee is too dynamic and fluid in my experience for aura buffs to pay off. Good points chasing bad in my opinion.

Ok...

But if your bringing Lemartes for the charge reroll for a DoA play with DC, you might as well get the reroll to hit without losing any attacks?

I'm not suggesting taking 5 characters to buff something like those terrible "tactics" articles from last year.

 

But a deep struck character will often fail a supporting charge, so may as well at least give something their buff.

 

And just for comparision, a unit of 10 DC with just chainswords, with 40 attacks, get either 27 hits without a chaplain, or 36 with one, which is worth a bit more than 3 extra DC.

So I'd say a 30% damage buff, Lemartes own beastly stats, and rerolling a DoA charge is well worth is 129 pt cost.

I can buy 6 death company with a power axe and sword and jump packs for 129. That's a lot more punch than 9 extra hits and possibly more survivable than Lemartes himself. The charge reroll is pretty sweet I'll give you that. All in all the combo is too many points for too little bang for my liking. I have a beautifuly painted metal Lemartes who let me down badly last tournament. Anecdotal but it's what I got.

[Montoya]

fair enough. 

 

But you need to buy the 2 HQ anyway to play a battalion.  If Lemartes is one of those two, then he's definitely worth it.  

 

Your argument is an interesting one vs. taking Lemartes as a third HQ though.   But it is hard to factor out that reroll to charge distances.     It does make me question whether taking the Lieutenant vs. the additional DC is worth it though.

[tychobi]

Gotta hand it to the dev team. I feel that our arguments both hold great merit and that means that it is really a style choice. 8th rocks! For Sanguinius!