Are Plague Marines Competetive?

[Checkmate77]

Hallo Everyone,

 

I've seen this touched on in various threads, but haven't seen a thread dedicated to it.  (If I missed it I apologize).

 

Simply put:  Are Plague Marines Competitive?

 

I would really like to build a PM heavy force vs ones that rely on Poxwalkers and/or cultists.

 

So for a more detailed 2-part questions:

 

1.  Has anyone tried to use pure PM?  If yes, what were your experiences? have you used them in tournaments?

 

2.  What would you take to support such a list?  Characters, support, elites, etc.

[Vilicate]

I mean, no.  Not really.  I honestly don't think in the current game state that marines in general are super competitive.  The only marines that I see these days are primaris, then usually only hellblasters.  BA Death Company and Sanguinary Guard are pretty good too.

 

Plague Marines suffer from being just a little bit too expensive for what they can do, imo.  They nice and tough, but not like a 40% increase in toughness over a regular marine (who isn't particularly good anyway).

 

Just my opinion.  I like to run PM in my for fun lists though!

[bozo69pd]

I think plague marines are competitive in a game facing other marines. Especially something like Space Wolves or World Eaters that want CC. Against a shooting army though I would just concede out of frustration.

 

T5 isn't as good right now as it was in 6th.

[Checkmate77]

Really?

 

This is sad news that our staple troop choice is falling by the way side.

 

Even with the point reduction they received, no one has gone back to using them?

 

What about MSU special weapon spam?  I can get 5 PM with 2xPL and a PG and Plague Sword on the Champion for 119 points if I have my math right?

 

Two of those in a Rhino with Combi-bolter and havoc launcher and you have a strong, flexible mobile force.  For (again correct me if my math is off) 321 points.

 

Before the argument comes: yes, you can get 20 Poxwalkers for 120 points vs. only 5 PM for 119.  I have thought of that.  I am not in any way denying the appeal and staying power Poxwalkers have, especially if you add typhus into the mix.

 

My point is, there must be a way to use DG competitively without reliance on our shambling horde.

[bozo69pd]

They CAN be used ok check, but right now 8th edition hordes are very strong. Plague marines spam won't deny enough area to protect from alpha strike, each unit when focused will go down if an opponent wants an objective, etc.

 

I play mostly ultra competitive games though, so YMMV.

[Checkmate77]

Valid points bozo69pd,

 

Thanks for the inputs.  Guess I'm just hoping I've missed something.

[McElMcNinja]

I like using Plague Marines, load 7 up in a rhino with cc weapons, a choas lord, a tallyman, and a foul Blightspawn. Then have 2 7 man units back with 3 plasma & bolters, they can rapid at 18 which no matter who goes first you have something in range early. Run some drones and they will draw most of the fire as everyone seems scared of those (especially one with a flesh mower).

[Checkmate77]

That was kinda what I was thinking of Ninja:

 

7-man squad with 2xPlague Spewers and 2xFlails of Contagion in a Rhino backed up by a Blight Lord and a CSM Sorcerer (Warp Time), and then 2x5 PM squads with BLs and PG in a second Rhino.  This will give them some good protection if they don't get first turn, plus it combines a lot points into just two drops which increases the likelihood of you getting first turn.

[bozo69pd]

That was kinda what I was thinking of Ninja:

 

7-man squad with 2xPlague Spewers and 2xFlails of Contagion in a Rhino backed up by a Blight Lord and a CSM Sorcerer (Warp Time), and then 2x5 PM squads with BLs and PG in a second Rhino.  This will give them some good protection if they don't get first turn, plus it combines a lot points into just two drops which increases the likelihood of you getting first turn.

It sounds cool in theory and on paper, and sure against some lists it can fight a good fight. But how good is it against Greentide, Nids, DG poxwalker spam, or Codex Daemons? Those troops you have there are a lot of points for just troops with bolters. Sure they are tough, but what are you going to add into the list now for killing power? If it isn't 3 spitter drones and 2 flying daemon princes I think it will struggle to do damage.

[Checkmate77]

Not denying the poor effectiveness of Bolters in the edition, What I am recommending above is simply the troop options (with some supporting elements) for a larger list.  Supporting these troop choices with the proper elements (to include amongst other options drones and demon prince(s)) should still be able to make them effective.  At least that's what I'm hoping   .

 

Look, I'm not denying how effective horde armies are in this edition, I just am looking for a challenge of using PMs vs. Poxwalkers.

[Sheesh Mode]

Plague Marines are best when advancing on an objective, and sitting on it while in cover for the rest of the game. They are hard to shift when in cover and built to defeat enemy medium to light infantry at mid to short range in order to score objectives. They are not meant for any other role.

[USNCenturion]

Plague Marines are best when advancing on an objective, and sitting on it while in cover for the rest of the game. They are hard to shift when in cover and built to defeat enemy medium to light infantry at mid to short range in order to score objectives. They are not meant for any other role.

This. They should print this in the codex by the Plague Marine entry my man.

[bozo69pd]

 

Plague Marines are best when advancing on an objective, and sitting on it while in cover for the rest of the game. They are hard to shift when in cover and built to defeat enemy medium to light infantry at mid to short range in order to score objectives. They are not meant for any other role.

This. They should print this in the codex by the Plague Marine entry my man.

 

Very true. I think people get confused because they have so many modeling options now "That you must be able to kit them out to handle any situation!"

 

Sadly this is not the case. Their wargear is mostly for a model/narrative enthusiast (which I am!). Putting 2 melta guns on a msu PM squad in a rhino probably does not mean that the unit is going to blow up an enemy predator.

[happyslugger]

Plague Marines are best when advancing on an objective, and sitting on it while in cover for the rest of the game. They are hard to shift when in cover and built to defeat enemy medium to light infantry at mid to short range in order to score objectives. They are not meant for any other role.

 

Exactly how I use them.

[Checkmate77]

Thanks for the inputs everyone,

 

I agree, PM are great when advancing on, and later holding objectives.  Every time I've set them up in cover, they have been able to withstand a withering amount of firepower.  T5 and DR do make a difference.  Setting them up with some mid-range special weapons (Blight Launchers and/or Plasma) mean they will be able to still contribute to the fight while holding said key objective.

 

Does anyone use Rhino's to get them to said objectives faster/safer?  I was looking at putting two MSU PM squads with 2xBL and Plasma in a Rhino for early survivability and to them move up and drop them on key objectives faster. 

[USNCenturion]

 

Does anyone use Rhino's to get them to said objectives faster/safer? I was looking at putting two MSU PM squads with 2xBL and Plasma in a Rhino for early survivability and to them move up and drop them on key objectives faster.

I’m of the opinion that rhinos negate the benefits you pay for with the plague marines, that is their ability to advance at no penalty and their durability. Obviously rhinos will protect them well enough, I just feel those points can be saved for use elsewhere.

[Checkmate77]

Really?  I always thought a Rhino compliments the PMs rather well.  While I agree, the extra protection a Rhino offers is not as necessary to PM as it might be to other units, the Rhino gives PM something they really need; Speed and thus flexibility.  It allows you to get your PMs to where you need them faster and (hopefully) at full strength. 

 

Augmenting your Rhino's combi-bolter armament with a Havoc Launcher gives it at least a little bit of LR fire support.  It could also potentially be used as a LOS/assault blocker once its cargo has been delivered. 

 

If nothing else, its another target your opponent must deal with, and during Army Placement, it allows you to drop multiple units at once. 

[McElMcNinja]

I throw my CC guys in a rhino and march my shooters up the table. My CC unit isn't equipped with guns so might as well keep them safer till they get to where they need to be.

 

With smoke launchers and the spell, the Rhino is at -2 to hit, which means less chance of getting targeted with super charged plasmas.

[Amon777]

To echo the above, the inexorable advance rule for pure DG detachments solidifies their role as advance and shoot then hold build. Just make sure you have plenty of threats so they aren't high priority for your opponent.

[ashc]

With regards to those who have tried plague marines as a combat squad, is anyone using the plague flamers or meltaguns?

[McElMcNinja]

I ran melta at first, because I had them set up that way in 7th. I have found the blight launcher to be better then both the melta or plasma. Haven't tried the flamer yet, just depends on how the launcher does at the tournament.

[DuskRaider]

I love my Plague Spewers. Then again, I don't play competitive but when they go off there's a lot of melted faces. 

[Closet Skeleton]

I think plague marines are competitive in a game facing other marines. Especially something like Space Wolves or World Eaters that want CC. Against a shooting army though I would just concede out of frustration.

 

T5 isn't as good right now as it was in 6th.

 

That's basically my tournament experience with them.

 

Last tournament I fought a primaris dark angels army with 18 helblasters and I almost came back despite a disastrous first two turns.

 

Its only Eldar that I didn't have a chance against. I couldn't even beat soft Eldar lists.

 

 

Does anyone use Rhino's to get them to said objectives faster/safer? I was looking at putting two MSU PM squads with 2xBL and Plasma in a Rhino for early survivability and to them move up and drop them on key objectives faster.

I’m of the opinion that rhinos negate the benefits you pay for with the plague marines, that is their ability to advance at no penalty and their durability. Obviously rhinos will protect them well enough, I just feel those points can be saved for use elsewhere.

 

 

Rhinos are fairly cheap alpha strike defense and have decent firepower with two combi-bolters. When running a 3 rhinos 3 plague marine squads list I often disembark my non-assault squads on the first turn but that doesn't mean starting them in there was a waste.

 

With regards to those who have tried plague marines as a combat squad, is anyone using the plague flamers or meltaguns?

 

I used plague spewers. Rarely got to fire them so I swapped them for melta guns which were equally pointless.

[BlackTriton]

I dont get melta weapon and their pricing.

They are the most expensive special options despite having only one shot and low range.

As is, plague launcher out performs them for most uses, at nearly half the price.

[Aothaine]

I really like the idea of running DG in blobs. If you're going to walk up field then do it right. Split the unit of 20 with ranged and melee guys, dropping the ranged guys first then crashing in with the melee bits. 

 

Another good option is to run MSU with three plasma guns per unit. Just be sure to keep them in range of a re-roll 1s bubble. 

 

Though even with all of the special toys it just doesn't make any sense to be in melee with DG marines. Let the underlings do that bit of nasty work and let the marines pick off what is left. Use cover to your advantage and enjoy a nice tough mid-board force of marines. 

 

If you really want to do melee you can, but there are specific builds for that. Pox Walker zombie stuff. 

 

I'm thinking that a really competitive list of DG is going to consist of a core like this..

 

Winged Daemon Prince x2

Terminator Lord

 

Terminators to drop in with the Terminator Lord on Turn 1-3 depending on how far up your poxwalkers got.

 

Poxwalker (max size)

Poxwalker (max size)

Plague Marines (MSU-ranged support w/ 2 Blight Launchers)

Plague Marines (MSU-ranged support w/ 2 Blight Launchers)

Plague Marines (MSU-ranged support w/ 2 Blight Launchers)

Plague Marines (MSU-ranged support w/ 3 Plasma Guns)

Plague Marines (MSU-ranged support w/ 3 Plasma Guns)

Plague Marines (MSU-ranged support w/ 3 Plasma Guns)

 

 

That is a ton of points already and leaves a lot less for you to play around with. But I have seen Helbrutes do work in terms of anti-armor and we have all the other really cool DG specific vehicles to mess around with as well. I think the troop section of DG needs to be maxed as much as possible. I think DG can be very competitive but you need to look at the lists that are doing well right now and build to be able to sustain when needed and punch when needed. One of the biggest gifts Papa Nurgle gave DG is their ability to be hard to remove. Those Pox Walkers are going to cause problems for your opponent and hopefully cordon off a lot of the board for you to control.