Slothysaur Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 So this is a question about this banner when held by a Company Ancient. If I have a unit of Hellblasters firing Overwatch with the Overcharged profile and roll ones to hit they will slay themselves. When this happens, assuming I roll a 4+ to muster the strength to fire again from the Banner, will the shots fired as a result of the Banner be at normal BS or at 6s? Hopefully I've worded this question well enough, phone typing is hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diagramdude Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 Fascinating interaction, I believe it would be normal BS. The model has been slain, passes the roll, and can now shoot one of its weapons as if it's the shooting phase. So normal BS. Karhedron 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slothysaur Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 I used this to wipe out a 5 man Terminator squad that was charging 3 Hellblasters and my opponent was anything but okay with the results. Even the shop keeper was unsure if this was legit. Guess there's some more shenanigans hiding in the dex still. librisrouge 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 Not long after the SM ‘Dev came out, I played my perpetual Black Templar frenemy in huge 3000pt game. He killed TWO of my Stormravens in MY Shooting phase by having his Devastator Centurions near the Relic banner. That hurt. I do have to agree that RAW it wouldn’t matter if it’s Overwatch, although the RAI on this one can be seen both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diagramdude Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 Pretty cut and dry IMO, the model dies and then activates this ability. Also worth noting this has nothing to do with Standard of Sacrifice, it is based on the native ability of the Astartes Banner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) 6+ to hit on the overwatch. Just because it's "as if it was the shooting phase" does not override the fact that you are firing overwatch. The overwatch rules specify that they always hit on 6+ regardless of other modifiers. Edited February 23, 2018 by Xenith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 does not override the fact that you are firing overwatch. I'm not too sure about that. You could theoretically should at some other unit that isn't charging you as well and that would obviously not be Overwatch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unseen Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 6+ to hit on the overwatch. Just because it's "as if it was the shooting phase" does not override the fact that you are firing overwatch. The overwatch rules specify that they always hit on 6+ regardless of other modifiers. You aren't firing overwatch anymore, your making a shooting attack as normal. So you can shoot the enemy charging you, that unit over there, but not that character hidden behind that unit, etc. It isn't an overwatch attack anymore. tedzilla, Demoulius and librisrouge 3 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superwill Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 +1 to "it's not overwatch" It's more like a mini-soulburst. librisrouge 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 Actually knowing this now (seriously one of the rare things I haven't seen yet. You never stop learning!) ... I now hope that my Plasma guys roll 1s during overwatch with an Ancient nearby so I can obliterate the charging unit properly. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 yeah definitely not overwatch, particularly because you could use it to shoot a unit that isnt the one charging you. Karhedron 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superwill Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 Yeah, I had been running a banner with my plasma inceptors but coz they only get to shoot with one of their guns instead of both I decided it's not worth it and I'd rather the rerolling 1s to wound of the Sanguinary banner. Hellblasters or plasma Veta/devs are still well supported by the chapter banner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 I'd rather the rerolling 1s to wound of the Sanguinary banner. Hellblasters or plasma Veta/devs are still well supported by the chapter banner. I see this said a lot, not just you, but the Blood Angels Chapter Banner (ie, Sanguinary Ancient) only allows rerolls of 1s to wound in the Fight Phase. It's not as good as the Lieutenants buff (otherwise BA would never use Lts...) Karhedron 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x19 Parabellum Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 It's not just about what it does, but rather about making your opponent second guess everything he shoots. I used the Astartes banner last night to very good effect. I'm going to post a bat-rep later today about my fight. Also, +1 for the "not overwatch" interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slothysaur Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 So there is no official FaQ for this then? I'll be sending an email to GW tonight then, just so I have an "official" answer. Mainly because the shop keeper didn't seem to think it was at full BS either and I'd rather it not get "shop ruled" to not work; I need all the tricks I can get with all the Eldar and other cheese that pervades that shop. Also I realized too late that the question wasn't about the relic banner lol, I was using the relic in the game so the thought didn't cross my mind that the relic part was irrelevant. librisrouge 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
librisrouge Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 Nah, you get full BS. You're not firing Overwatch, you're just shooting. You're not firing Overwatch if you're shot dead by the enemy in their shooting phase, why are you now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kolyarut Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 6+ to hit on the overwatch. Just because it's "as if it was the shooting phase" does not override the fact that you are firing overwatch. The overwatch rules specify that they always hit on 6+ regardless of other modifiers. How could you fire Overwatch in the Shooting phase though? If there's any room for interpretation, I think it's more arguable that the attacker could complete their charge move before the shooter is removed, because both effects happen after the shooting attack is "resolved". If we're going to get really really technical, though, then RAW the attacker only rolls for their charge distance at that point, and the move happens afterwards - so under that reading the charge distance would be rolled, then the model would be removed and the second attack would go off, then the chargers would be moved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Crimson Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 The attack is resolved as if it was the shooting phase, so I would use normal balistic skill. The same way, a pistol can be shot during the fight phase as if it was the shooting phase with the banner. The timing is before removing the model, so it happens before the charging unit actually moves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tychobi Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Not overwatch. Normal attack roll with appropriate modifiers. That's how it worked at Las Vegas Open as per the Glacial Geek Brother Aether 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Crimson Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 Just to be sure: has anyone checked if overcharged plasma can trigger the banner? I had this showing up with one of my friends where he said it should not work because it is not removed as a casualty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Crimson Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 Sorry for an other question related to banners: Does a company ancient allows a sanguinary ancient to gain the 4+ shoot when destroyed ability ? It does have the blood angels and ancient keyword. Astartes Banner: BLOOD ANGELS units within 6" of any friendly BLOOD ANGELS ANCIENTS add 1 to their Leadership. In addition, roll a D6 each time a BLOOD ANGELS INFANTRY model is destroyed within 6" of any friendly BLOOD ANGELS ANCIENTS, before removing the model as a casualty. On a 4+ that model musters one last surge of strength before succumbing to its wounds; it can either shoot with one of its weapons as if it were the Shooting phase, or make a single attack as if it were the Fight phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x19 Parabellum Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 Sorry for an other question related to banners: Does a company ancient allows a sanguinary ancient to gain the 4+ shoot when destroyed ability ? It does have the blood angels and ancient keyword. Astartes Banner: BLOOD ANGELS units within 6" of any friendly BLOOD ANGELS ANCIENTS add 1 to their Leadership. In addition, roll a D6 each time a BLOOD ANGELS INFANTRY model is destroyed within 6" of any friendly BLOOD ANGELS ANCIENTS, before removing the model as a casualty. On a 4+ that model musters one last surge of strength before succumbing to its wounds; it can either shoot with one of its weapons as if it were the Shooting phase, or make a single attack as if it were the Fight phase. Holy crap dude, I think it does. I never truly read the wording before, but it looks like having a Company Ancient triggers the Astartes banner for any other ancients you have in your list, Primaris, Company, Terminator or Sanguinary! CommDante 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluejayJunior Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 I have been wondering the same thing. I also think that it does. Especially when you compare the wording to the Sanguinary and Terminator Ancients. Their rules both specify "this model" while the Company/Primaris Ancients both say "any friendly Blood Angels Ancient." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 Comparison between all three banners: Hidden Content Astartes Banner (Company Ancient, Primaris Ancient) BLOOD ANGELS units within 6” of any friendly BLOOD ANGELS ANCIENTS add 1 to their Leadership. In addition roll a D6 each time a BLOOD ANGELS INFANTY model is destroyed within 6” of any friendly BLOOD ANGELS ANCIENTS before removing the model as a casualty. ON a 4+ that model musters one last surge of strength before succumbing to its wounds; it can either shoot with one of its weapons as if it were the Shooting phase, or make a single attack as if it were the Fight phase. Archangel Standard (Terminator Ancient) BLOOD ANGELS units within 6” of any friendly BLOOD ANGELS ANCIENTS add 1 to their Leadership characteristic. In addition, you can re-roll failed hit rolls in the Fight phase for friendly BLOOD ANGELS units within 6’ of this model. Blood Angels Chapter Banner (Sanguinary Ancient) BLOOD ANGELS units within 6” of any friendly BLOOD ANGELS ANCIENTS add 1 to their Leadership. In addition, you can re-roll wound rolls of 1 in the Fight phase for friendly BLOOD ANGELS units within 6” of this model. ...so....in short....the same language ("within 6" of any friendly...") that prevents the Ld buffs from stacking (so no +3Ld for being near all 3 banners) also allows the Terminator Ancient/Sanguinary Ancient to relay the special ability of the Company/Primaris Ancients. Not too shabby. So.....what that means is that you can park a cheap Company Ancient with some Devastators while a Sanguinary Ancient hangs out with you beatstick unit, and that beatstick unit will get to both re-roll 1's To Wound in the Fight phase, but also on a 4+ shoot or fight again when they are killed. Don't know if it's game-breakingly good or anything, but definitely a great hidden benefit. p.s. The Standard of Sacrifice has the same "within 6" of the bearer" verbiage, so no to having FNP bubbles floating all around the board. While we're talking interactions of banners.... A Chaplain lets units within 6" use his Leadership. A banner gives +1Ld. Therefore, a Chaplain within 6" of a banner makes all units around him Ld10. (again, not the greatest thing in the world, but just confirming). BluejayJunior, Demoulius, Kallas and 3 others 6 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 I never even noticed the different Ancients have different effects since I plan to use the Primaris Ancient only anyway. :D Morticon 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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