Passages from Ashes of Prospero (spoilers)

[Karack Blackstone]

Leif, while I agree with all you have typed thus far, I do however have the thought that when things like this come into new consideration, especially in regards to new fluff, the older fluff being written in stone up until a certain point, in this case, when new fluff says that the older is now outdated information, might be both cause for concern, as well as hope, for the future.

 

I personally love the idea of FeMarines, if done well; if done poorly, all GW will do is drive away customers, due to how the new fluff is not presented well enough to change the paradigm.

 

I genuinely get that, for a pretty decent portion of the players out there, FeMarines are a total no dice, full stop concept; the true issue is that, if done well, perhaps it can be enough of a convincing argument that, yes, said FeMarines are going to be a totally new lore direction, and will render previous lore and fluff outdated. If done well, there's the very real issue that, GW will only add vastly more Space Marine players, up to just over 50% of the population of the planet, given the average between men and women.

 

Women play, sure; why can't they enjoy the poster child army feelings embodied by Space Marines, too?

 

From a purely factual concept, just imagine how much additional perspective the game will enjoy by adding the option to genuinely get women to be able to play the iconic army of the Warhammer 40,000 setting. Rules balance could become a genuine feature of the game, even in 8th Ed. considering the Chapter Approved approach at the end of each year.

 

Still, my perspective is just as valid as yours; I'm not saying you need to change your mind. I am just curious as to the who, what, when, where, how, and why, of your perspective on FeMarines. Yes, sensitive subject is sensitive; however, without having a meaningful discussion, there is no room for growth in WH40K, really, now is there?

[TiguriusX]

"To lose touch with one's origins, to believe oneself above the very people that made up the Imperium, was the gravest dishonour a Space Wolf could suffer"

 

I think we have heard many variations of this as the SW changed from 30K to 40K but it is worth remembering to keep everything in perspective, especially with the Primaris question hanging out there.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

See, it seems to me that line of logic is fundamentally based on some faulty premises, both on the 'need to be represented on the tabletop' and the '50% of the market is untapped'.

 

On the first point, I just don't get that approach. It strikes me that if 'need to be personally represented in the faction to play army X was true', there would be very few Ork, Nid, Cron players etc. Most people like stories/fictional groups/characters from outside their personal experience/gender/race etc. For a quick alternate example, until recently The Doctor in Doctor Who has always been played by a guy. Yet that show has (at least since the mid 2000s reboot) enjoyed a massive female fanbase (they're the majority in my experience).

 

Secondly the 'untapped 50%' thing. That just doesn't add up imo. For better or worse, different people have different tastes (not just limited to the male/female line either, of course). Tabletop wargaming seems to only appeal to people of a certain mindset, the overwhelming majority of whom are male. There's not a magical giant seam of new customers ready to swoop in if they sprinkle in some more women. Basically, the vast majority of women who would be interested in this game, are probably already interested/playing. And that's before we get to the 'how many established fans would this change cause to check out and stop buying/playing?' issue. And even if there was a large quantity of uptapped potential female custom, would female Marines be needed to tap that demographic? If the goal is 'more women represented in 40k', surely its better and 'safer' to actually give some attention to the SoBs at last?

 

Would it be nice to have more women in the hobby? Absolutely. Would female Marines achieve that? I don't think so.

[Triszin]

I'd argue it be like current day marines, where Female combat marines are so rare, few and far between it wouldnt be an army of them, maybe 1 of every 50-100.

[Jarl Caldersson]

I'd argue it be like current day marines, where Female combat marines are so rare, few and far between it wouldnt be an army of them, maybe 1 of every 50-100.

Could look at it like the Stormcast eternals where females are rare, and they only have 2 female Stormcast.

[Triszin]

 

I'd argue it be like current day marines, where Female combat marines are so rare, few and far between it wouldnt be an army of them, maybe 1 of every 50-100.

Could look at it like the Stormcast eternals where females are rare, and they only have 2 female Stormcast.

 

my thoughts exactly.

 

I might just make my wolf lord a female primaris now. just a head swap., or maybe a helmet

[Lord_Caerolion]

Are they rare in the Stormcast, though? We've already been told of one Stormhost, the one drawn from a noble family, that has numerous women within it, it's just a case that we've only got two female sculpts. Before the female sculpts came out, I was just willing to put it down to "they just wear the same armour", and I still kinda do, as boobplate is pretty ridiculous. 

I mean, we've never been given any indication that there's a major gender imbalance. We can assume there is one, but if the Mortal Realms were as harsh as we're told, I imagine there were a fair few females being drawn in to the fighting, and therefore being taken by Sigmar.

[Triszin]

My books been delayd again =(.

 

I just want to read about all the 13th co interactions =(

[TiguriusX]

Reading the electronic kindle version right now and i believe it is cheaper.

 

Dont even need a kindle (i lost my kindle on the plane...)...its an app for phone or pc.

 

Purchase download and read. No shipping time

[Triszin]

Reading the electronic kindle version right now and i believe it is cheaper.

 

Dont even need a kindle (i lost my kindle on the plane...)...its an app for phone or pc.

 

Purchase download and read. No shipping time

I like having a shelf or two of books.

I was luckily enough to grab a limited edition Leman russ primach book. o.o I oogle at it from time to time

[Karack Blackstone]

 

I'd argue it be like current day marines, where Female combat marines are so rare, few and far between it wouldnt be an army of them, maybe 1 of every 50-100.

Could look at it like the Stormcast eternals where females are rare, and they only have 2 female Stormcast.

 

 

Jarl, what happened to the quote of the Sigilite, from the OP?

 

I was hoping to put that in the thread that has since been moved over to the Adeptus Astartes section, just to try and see what people think of the concept. I am also curious as to the source of that quote; it is thought provoking, especially considering Cawl can do what the Emperor could not in his time.

 

FeMarines can be done, yes; however, as I have typed numerous times, it has to be done well, and in, for lack of a better term, likely just a headswap manner, unless the Sisters and the Space Marines as a whole can figure out how to keep the two unique, and somehow form a third group, that is either primarily Female Marines, or, more likely, a way that women can safely be elevated into Marines, in a reliable manner.

 

Either way, I do want GW to do this concept well; Sisters of Battle need far more help, far sooner, at that, too.

[Jarl Caldersson]

Not sure what quote you speak of as the original post has none from the Sigillite.

 

I believe with the Primaris and it's higher chance of recruits being eligible, that females MAY be eligible. Cawl wanted to use the other half of the geneseed, so why not use the other half of the population too.

 

I will be waiting for GW to make female Marines canon. Once they do I will be making a pack leader of one. Maybe as a wreck less Blood Claw akin to Lukas for my Lost Company.

[Yoyo ninja]

I agree with Leif. I really don't like the idea of female marines. There is 30 years of back story saying why it is the way it is. What do we gain by changing it? The hobby is very niche, not alot of people are interested in it, just making some female space marines isn't going to change that.

Take the PETA issue as an analogy. There is to much use of fur in the 41st millennium, so animal rights people won't play 40k. But if we take away all the fur from the models then the animal rights people will play. Thanks not how it works.

All that does is annoy the existing fan base because the company that they have heavily invested in are more willing to change things because of what is said by people outside of the hobby.

 

Now that's not to say that I don't want female representation in the game, but there are better ways to do it.

 

Eldar of both stripes already have a reasonable female presence in their model line, but more is always nice.

 

Tau in the fluff don't discriminate on gender, but only have one female model, something could be done there. I'm not sure what you would do, as the armour of Tau seems gender neutral, so just point to a model and say that's a woman? Which would be exactly the same for Marines I would guess?

 

Ork are fungus, Necrons are robots and Tyranids are Tyranids. None of them have genders.

 

But the best way I can see are the two existing female only factions that languish in obscurity. Sisters of battle are in great need of support, they are still using metal models! Not even failcast! They need new plastic models without stupid boob plate. Make it cheaper to buy into them as an army. Make them more appealing to play. And bam! Female representation. And awesome female representation at that. They are more badmule (think of a different word for a mule) than marines anyway. A marine is a genetically enhanced super soldier with the best of everything humanity can offer, who is asked to fight the worst the galaxy can spew forth. Sisters are asked to fight the same things but without the demi-god like powers of a space marine. That's pretty hard core.

 

The second female only faction are the sisters of silence, they have great minis so far, but they need fleshing out, they have basic troops so far and that's it. They are cool and need more love.

 

Also the argument that women don't play marines because they aren't represented is daft. I'm not an 8ft tall super soldier, or the pilot of a 30meter tall, walking weapon of war, or an ancient robot with the soul of a long dead person in me, or a hybrid alien/human mix with 3 arms. But I play space wolves, imperial knights, Necrons and genestealer cults. It's silly to say people only play something they can directly and physically relate too.

 

I realise thats a massive wall of text, thanks for reading to the end.

[Yoyo ninja]

Also I forgot to mention guard, no one cares about gender in the guard, but there are no female models. Again, the armour shouldnt change, its all just standard issue combats and a flak jacket, but female heads on an upgrade sprue? Easy, job done for the guard.

[Jarl Caldersson]

We don't gain much, we gain some extra sprue bit, some diversity, maybe a few players. What do we have to lose? If Femarines come, will people honestly leave? If they do than good riddance, same for those that left because of Primaris/new scale PM. The lore is progressing, Primaris may be the answer to Femarines. The lack of progression was causing to GW to stagnate. Since progressing forward GW has seen a huge boom of success and money.

 

The game must evolve or it will stagnate and die. If they still sold 1st edition models GW would be out of business. Everyone would have a huge army and no need to buy new ones. Competitors would have made better models and taken over. Evolve or die, and GW decided to evolve. Some players might not like it, but it is necessary. I guarantee people left when the went from metal to plastic, but in the end it was better.

[Yoyo ninja]

So having female only factions isn't equality? I don't see anyone calling for male sisters of battle/silence. Why not? It's not like men can't be pious, why don't we have male sisters?

It's because of the standing story.

 

If we are changing the story, there is lots of Xenophobia in the story, let's make the Imperium relax their stance on the Xenos races, Tyranids are just misunderstood after all. Let's have the Necrons and the Eldar settle their differences and be friends, because apparently the story doesn't matter anymore.

[Jarl Caldersson]

Who said anything about equality. If we wanted equality it would be half men, half female. Why can't men be a sister, it's because they choose not to use men. Sister choose not to recruit males, Marines do not choose to only recruit males. If Marines were given the choice to recruit males or females then it would be up to the chapter to choose to recruit male, both, or female just like SoB. We have seen it in several stories where Marines find that the females were as courageous or hard fighting as a marine. Even the most violent of the Marines, the World Eaters, found a female that stood equal grounds

 

It's been a standing theory for 30 years that the primarchs are gone, yet they have returned. Been a standing theory you don't tamper with the marine build, yet we have new Marines. The lore changes to suit the age and GW needs to survive. It will change again in another 30 years.

 

The xenophobic point is reductio ad absurdum, and is just that ridiculous and extreme for this scenario.

[Leif Bearclaw]

We don't gain much, we gain some extra sprue bit, some diversity, maybe a few players. What do we have to lose? If Femarines come, will people honestly leave? If they do than good riddance, same for those that left because of Primaris/new scale PM. The lore is progressing, Primaris may be the answer to Femarines. The lack of progression was causing to GW to stagnate. Since progressing forward GW has seen a huge boom of success and money.

 

 

 

Sorry, but that seems like an unnecessarily negative and confrontational attitude to take. 'Progressing' carries an implication of improvement, that the new stuff is 'better'. Unfortunately that isn't the case, we're definitely seeing change but 'progress'? That's more debatable. Essentially telling anyone who doesn't like a change to   themselves and good riddance is just poor form. You don't have a problem with female Marines? Bully for you. Will you be as sanguine when other changes arrive. What if Russ does indeed come back as a Khorne worshipping werewolf? Or Logan and the Wolves are declared excommunicate by the Imperium and join the Tau Empire? Ahriman bromances it up with Bjorn? There's a plethora of ways to 'progress' the fluff that completely undermine the character and established nature of the setting, either on a factional or setting-wide basis. Would you take the same 'don't like it? you, we're better off without you' approach? How much do they need to change the fundamental flavour of 40k before it stops being 40k?

 

 

The game must evolve or it will stagnate and die. If they still sold 1st edition models GW would be out of business. Everyone would have a huge army and no need to buy new ones. Competitors would have made better models and taken over. Evolve or die, and GW decided to evolve. Some players might not like it, but it is necessary. I guarantee people left when the went from metal to plastic, but in the end it was better.

That's kinda a strawman argument. Nobody's saying GW should've kept the 90s era metals and never improved the models. Hell, when the initial move to multi part plastics came in, I'd be surprised if many people left at all, as there seems to have been general enthusiasm for the new models. But there's a difference between new models and twisting the fluff into something it never was. People like the fluff, for many it's the driving force that keeps them in the hobby or keeps them playing 40k instead of a competitor's game. If they change the fluff to the point that long term, loyal customers are checking out of 40k, that's both sad for us and potentially problematic for the all important bottom line.

 

Again what do Female Marine tangibly offer that a solid overhaul of the SoBs wouldn't? That said, for both Guard and Marines, it'd take more than just a new head sprue to pull off the concept properly. I've seen conversions when people stick female heads on the current, male bodies and it just looks naff and 'wrong'. Like the Eldar kits, you'd at least need an alternate torso.

[Yoyo ninja]

No, that would be parity. And as it stands there are two female only playable factions vs one male only.

 

I have said nothing about women not being as good on the battle field as men, in fact my first point said the exact opposite.

 

The Primarchs always had it written into their stories that the ones that weren't dead wanted to come back. Russ, lost in the warp, return for the Wolf time. All the Chaos one where in the warp, plotting revenge, evil mastermind-esquire. Guilliman was awaiting something to heal him.

 

And the primaris, while I don't like the fluff, I can understand adding to something that exists, working from the Emperors notes. While completely re-engineering it, building it from the ground up, is well beyond the tech available in univers. That's the issue.

 

As for choice, why would the imperium re-engineer the space marine program, at vast cost, when they already have a space marine program, it doesn't make sense.

 

And, yes, it is, it was meant to be. But I'm sure the meaning was clear enough, changing the entire back story for the sake of it is absurd.

[Wargamer]

 

Again what do Female Marine tangibly offer that a solid overhaul of the SoBs wouldn't? That said, for both Guard and Marines, it'd take more than just a new head sprue to pull off the concept properly. I've seen conversions when people stick female heads on the current, male bodies and it just looks naff and 'wrong'. Like the Eldar kits, you'd at least need an alternate torso.

 

Simple: Sisters aren't interesting. Space Wolves are.

 

It's really that simple. If you tell me that there's an army of Nuns with Guns who use the power of prayer to shrug off bullets, I'm kind of interested but I'm not reaching for my wallet. If you tell me there's an army of super-human Space Vikings who can use a semi-automatic rocket launcher in one hand and mjolnir in the other, I have a burning need to own this.

 

And on that note, my interest in Space Wolves fell away when they stopped being Space Vikings and became the Puppy Club.

 

I think people are either forgetting, or being wilfully ignorant of the fact that whether something is interesting to a potential consumer is as much how you sell the product as what the product actually is. I had no interest in the Adeptus Custodes whatsoever until a fellow Frater wrote an epic post detailing all the stuff they do. Before then, the Custodes were firmly in the "this has no place in 40K" box and no amount of shiny models was ever going to change my mind on that.

 

So I think people on the other side of the table need to accept they're arguing from a point of fallacy, and what annoys me is these people can often see the fallacy if we look at a different target. Look at any unpopular faction and you'll see people arguing that if GW just made them in plastic, or updated the sculpts, or brought in new units then people would buy them. Yet to suggest Female Marines would be popular if you actually had official sculpts from GW is heresy of the highest order and cannot possibly be true.

 

Personally, I think of all the canon Chapters it is the Space Wolves who have the most obvious niche for Female Marines to fill. They are notorious for doing their own thing and damning those who say otherwise; they've got the Canis Helix which throws unique traits into the mix; and the Norse mythology they (used to) draw upon has one of the most famous warrior-women groups in history - the Valkyries.

 

I would love to see the inclusion of some kind of "Vylkira" unit - a host of Female Astartes with jump packs and power-spears who provide a counterbalance to the traditionally footslogging Grey Hunters. They could even mirror their mythic inspiration, acting as a sort of honour guard for the dead and dying. Perhaps the duty of the Vylkira is to rescue the bodies of fallen heroes so they can either be saved by the Wolf Priests, interred into a Dreadnought or simply given the warrior's burial they deserve. There's lots of cool and interesting things you could do with this concept, and there will be people who are on the fence who will be swayed by it.

 

After all, people rarely love the whole of an army. I like Vostroyans and Praetorians, but I'm no fan of Tallarn or Catachans. I like Deathwatch, but not Grey Knights. I like the old-school core of the Space Wolves, but I absolutely hate the wolf wolf wolf wolves of wolfworld. Valkyries, being Vikings and not Puppies, would be a step towards the Chapter I used to love.

[Jarl Caldersson]

No, that would be parity. And as it stands there are two female only playable factions vs one male only.

I have said nothing about women not being as good on the battle field as men, in fact my first point said the exact opposite.

The Primarchs always had it written into their stories that the ones that weren't dead wanted to come back. Russ, lost in the warp, return for the Wolf time. All the Chaos one where in the warp, plotting revenge, evil mastermind-esquire. Guilliman was awaiting something to heal him.

And the primaris, while I don't like the fluff, I can understand adding to something that exists, working from the Emperors notes. While completely re-engineering it, building it from the ground up, is well beyond the tech available in univers. That's the issue.

As for choice, why would the imperium re-engineer the space marine program, at vast cost, when they already have a space marine program, it doesn't make sense.

And, yes, it is, it was meant to be. But I'm sure the meaning was clear enough, changing the entire back story for the sake of it is absurd.

Sister of Battle=Space Marines

Sister of Silence=Custodes.

Not including all the flavors of both chaos and loyalists Marines vs the single flavor of SoB, the codex less SoS.

 

My point is people also said "why do we need primarchs we haven't had them in 30 years, so why bring them back now?"

 

With the Primaris they have retooled and given us a new way of making new Space Marines, what's to say Cawl didn't add the ability to make female Space Marines. The books already said the way to make a Primaris is vastly different than a normal SM.

 

We don't need to change the back story because there is already and option forward. Noone ever said "oh we need to change the past for Femarines" on the contrary we are saying "hey there might be a future for Femarines".

 

Edit: and why would I like Femarines rather than SoB. Because I hate the ever :cuss :cuss out of religious fanatics. SoB are just that, their players are nice and everything but the SoB fanatics have zero appeal. Females add another element to characters and stories. Now to be blunt, if Femarines never came true it wouldn't hurt me in the slightest. My Scion has females (though I wish I had some female heads from GW) and it gives me some room for female charms in my companies backstory. If Femarines did comes true it would be amusing to me to have 1 or 2 just for writing. I am not going to go and change my characters, hence why my Femarines would only be a newly recruited Blood Claw.

 

Besides this topic is going way off subject of Ashes of Prospero and nitpicking at a single passage that was musings and nothing serious. About to just get it locked down just like the Dark Imperium thread. About to take advice of higher and just not post these info-passages.

[TiguriusX]

'I overheard what the runekast said. Horus turned on the Allfather. Think about that, Bulveye. Horus turned on the Allfather.'

'We did nothing wrong,' snarled Izzakar. 'I told you before, imbecile, that your censure was misplaced. You would not listen. You forced us to defend ourselves.'

'What of it? We do the Allfather's bidding here. He determined your...' The Old Wolf's voice trailed away with realisation and his face twisted with consternation.

'Thats right, Old Wolf. Our orders, they came from Horus. The Wolf King did not speak with the Allfather directly, the execute command was passed on by the Warmaster.'

'It was all a lie,' whispered the Stormcaller. 'The Allfather never ordered the death of Prospero. The thrice-cursed Warmaster had already turned and sought to pave the way to his treachery by turning the Sons of Russ upon Magnus' Legion.'
 

'Had the Rout not destroyed Prospero, might we have had an ally? Surely that was the gambit of Horus.'

 

*Note that is not a direct quote I have removed some content so as not to spoil the reading of the novel

 

I don't think this is a real spoiler b/c readers of the HH novels know this but just in case you don't want to read I have hid it.

 

I just think it is interesting the "truth" is now made known to the characters in universe

[Bjorn Firewalker]

I thought this was relevant to the discussion regarding "female Space Wolves." It's Orphus' 2011 'Codex: Space Wolves Sisters'.

[The Saint Ragnar]

 

Besides this topic is going way off subject of Ashes of Prospero and nitpicking at a single passage that was musings and nothing serious. About to just get it locked down just like the Dark Imperium thread. About to take advice of higher and just not post these info-passages.

 

 

I agree that the topic has really derailed from the OP. Maybe we can move the "discussion" about Female Marines to its own topic?

 

I would like to keep seeing snippets from the book as I will not be able to get the book for awhile but I am eager for what insight it will have.

[Splog]

The xenophobic point is reductio ad absurdum, and is just that ridiculous and extreme for this scenario.

You say that like it is a bad thing. A reductio ad absurdum is a valid and venerable argument form, well used in logic and philosophy. Observing that someone has used one is at best noting the technique, at worst conceding that you were wrong. If you think the reductio doesn’t hold in a particular case, you should say why.