Passages from Ashes of Prospero (spoilers)

[Triszin]

Odd thing i noticed in the book, he head or tech marine in red, our Orion priests don't wear red

[Jarl Caldersson]

Odd thing i noticed in the book, he head or tech marine in red, our Orion priests don't wear red

Gav did no research into this. The more I reread this book the more I am intent to say that this book should be thrown out for all lore knowledge except '13th is back and Njal found them in a maze on Prospero". Thats it, no no, nothing else, the lore in this books is miserable.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Let me ask you this.... If Horus had never contacted Russ, how would you have expected the scenario to play out any differently?

 

 

The sooner the SW community stop perpetuating this myth that Horus (moustache twirling) tricked Russ into doing something he never intended, the better. Russ acted within his role and remit and there has never been a hint to the contrary.

 

Luke

 

I expect Russ to not have open fire upon Prospero.

I expect Russ would have landed himself and personally sought out Magnus, as he did with Angron when Russ believed Angron lost his way. 

I expect Russ would have brought an open hand to Prospero, not a closed fist.

 

and for that "myth" that has never been hinted at, I refer you to Inferno page 24 and 25:

THE WILL OF HORUS

At Beta-Garmon, Russ was met not only by those warriors of his own Legion who had heeded his call, namely the battle-scarred warriors of the Third, Ninth and Eleventh Great Companies, but also by a detachment of warriors in sea-green armor of the newlt anointed Sons of Horus. At behest of the Warmaster himself these warriors were pledged to aid the Wolf King in his dire task- their leader, Overseer Boros Kurn, bore personal communications from Horus to his brother, Leman Russ. The exact contents of these missives have never been made available to scholars of the later Imperium, indeed it is highly likely that non one other than Leman Russ and Horus themselves will ever know what arguements were brought to bear. But what is known now by the dire events which were to transpire on Prospero is that after viewing the contents of the message and hearing the words of his brother, Leman Russ let it be known among his sons that he no longer intended simply to capture Magnus, but instead see him slain.

 

It goes on in further detail, but I believe this is enough here to "perpetuate the myth"

 

Odd thing i noticed in the book, he head or tech marine in red, our Orion priests don't wear red

Gav did no research into this. The more I reread this book the more I am intent to say that this book should be thrown out for all lore knowledge except '13th is back and Njal found them in a maze on Prospero". Thats it, no no, nothing else, the lore in this books is miserable.

 

 

QFT

 

Jarl Kjaran Coldheart

[LukeTheButcher]

Russ did come with an open hand.... he gave Magnus the opportunity to surrender.

 

Having refused to co-operate with Imperial Justice, Magnus has shown his hand and demonstrated his Open Rebellion following his Phsycic Assult on Terra (cause Tectonic upheaval and untold loss of life).

 

As a traitor in Open Rebellion, why would Russ risk himself as a hostage by goign to the planet? And How would going 'Hour of the Wolf' style not led to open warfare? It would have been just the same, except the Censure Host would have been tactically exposed for going in peace-meal rather than in the co-ordinated fashion the actual assult took.

 

And, as a traitor in Open Rebellion, that you are plannign to attack in a full Legion assault, why would you not want to bombard the defences first?

 

 

Open conflict was always one of the three outcomes (Magnus Surrenders, Magnus runs, Magnus fights). If it came to a fight, Magnus was never going to be taken alive. He has made his choices and defied the Emperor (once in breaking the Psyker rules and second in defy the Emperors Justice).

 

As it was already an option, once conflict was initiated Magnus' death was the only outcome that could be expected for a Traitor. However, if, in the heat of combat, an opportunity to capture Magnus occured Russ would have taken it.

 

So, what did Horus do except make Russ angry? And, did that anger actually affect any of the three possible outcomes? It didn't stop Russ from giving Magnus the opportunity to surrender. So how effective was Horus' duping?

 

To think that Russ would never have attacked Prospero without Horus' missive is not logical. What else was Russ to do to enact the Emperor's Law?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Russ’s entreaty to Magnus prior to the Razing of Prospero was in defiance of the altered orders, a plea for peace. It highlights the bonds of brotherhood Russ tried to create with his orders.

How effective was Horus’s duping? It was effective enough that Russ allowed a single hour to pass before launching his attack.

Russ ignored the requests of Valdor in granting Magnus more time to respond.

Russ ignored the leader of the Custodes and right hand of the Emperor. Let that sink in.

 

Now let me ask you: if the Emperor wanted the head of Magnus, why did the Terran faction of the Censure Host leave so lightly armed? “Inferno” goes into detail how the Terran host was little more than an honor guard and light show of force from Terrra.

If Magnus was so far gone, why send just a 10th of the Custodes and barely 3k of the Sisters of Silence? Why not send the Custodes in real strength? Why not attach the military might of Terra to the host?

 

The majority of the Censure Host, as again detailed in “Inferno” shows its main strength was the Wolves called by Russ and reinforcements added by the Warmaster.

The Emperor DIDNT send the strength of Terra because it appears as if he DIDNT want the head of Magnus, just his arrest.

 

Intact, looking at the Censure Host, it’s a damn miracle any of them survived at all. A common belief is that a besieger should have a 3 to 1 advantage over the besieged.

The combined Censure Host was hardly that, maybe a 10k advantage over the traitors and that’s questionable as we don’t have a complete breakdown of Prospero’s non-Astartes numbers. I think the difference maker was the Sisters’ ability to nullify the main strength of the Thousand Sons...if they weren’t present I do believe the Wolves would have been slaughtered.

 

 

Now do I believe that Magnus was a traitor and deserved his fate? Oh yea. Magnus crosses so many lines that I believe he got off lucky

 

Do I believe that Horus dupes Russ? Again, yes I do. I believe that has more to do with the charisma of Horus than the intelligence of Russ.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Russ did come with an open hand.... he gave Magnus the opportunity to surrender.

 

Having refused to co-operate with Imperial Justice, Magnus has shown his hand and demonstrated his Open Rebellion following his Phsycic Assult on Terra (cause Tectonic upheaval and untold loss of life).

 

As a traitor in Open Rebellion, why would Russ risk himself as a hostage by goign to the planet? And How would going 'Hour of the Wolf' style not led to open warfare? It would have been just the same, except the Censure Host would have been tactically exposed for going in peace-meal rather than in the co-ordinated fashion the actual assult took.

 

And, as a traitor in Open Rebellion, that you are plannign to attack in a full Legion assault, why would you not want to bombard the defences first?

 

 

Open conflict was always one of the three outcomes (Magnus Surrenders, Magnus runs, Magnus fights). If it came to a fight, Magnus was never going to be taken alive. He has made his choices and defied the Emperor (once in breaking the Psyker rules and second in defy the Emperors Justice).

 

As it was already an option, once conflict was initiated Magnus' death was the only outcome that could be expected for a Traitor. However, if, in the heat of combat, an opportunity to capture Magnus occured Russ would have taken it.

 

So, what did Horus do except make Russ angry? And, did that anger actually affect any of the three possible outcomes? It didn't stop Russ from giving Magnus the opportunity to surrender. So how effective was Horus' duping?

 

To think that Russ would never have attacked Prospero without Horus' missive is not logical. What else was Russ to do to enact the Emperor's Law?

 

Good sir, I'm not so sure why you are so adamant on changing other people's mind and why you take offence on the being duped part. Despite disagreeing with you, I do respect your opinion even though I think it is made in the absence of several key sources which have been kindly pointed out by many like Jarl Coldheart who have the Inferno HH book itself, in combination with many other sources, not least is Prospero Burns where Russ, in one of his endearing moments to me, tried to contact Magnus but using the wrong source. (my namesake Kasper Hawser from that book)

 

Just bear in mind that in the end, EVERYONE was duped, not just Russ. Hope this helps.

[LukeTheButcher]

Ok. You've lost me.

 

Inferno has 1 writ. You are infering that Horus changed this somehow (although not covered or even mentioned in the snippit in a previous message on the Will of Horus). So are you suggesting the writ changed from 'Bring him in alive' to bring him in 'dead or alive' or just 'bring me his head'.

 

From your message, I suspect you feel it is the latter (ie, 'bring me his head') as you suggest Russ defied the 'new orders' by still pushing for surrender....

 

So, you consider the deployment of the Space Wolves on mass, a 10th of the Emperor's Bodyguard (that, lets be honest is a rare occurance), the Secretive Sisterhood the Emperor kept close and the even more ultra secret Psy-Titan(s?) as a force to simply 'arrest' Magnus and nothing more? And you consider that there was no possibility in that resisting the 'arrest' Magnus life may have been deemed forfit? Seriously?

 

Its like saying ...

Big E - "Arrest that man".

Russ - "But he has a gun..."

Big E - "Well, take your own gun. Slightly bigger. And here are some of my rare, special guns".

Russ - "you know.. if it comes to shooting he might die.."

Big E - "Die? Are you mad? I want him alive you fool!"

 

I mean, really? Really? Big E says I want him alive and the Warmaster says sorry Russ, he's writ 2.0, he wants him dead now. And no one checked? That not like changing your take out order, thats the death sentance to a Legion and a Primarch. Not something taken lightly and with Valdor right there.... But thats what you are genuinly suggesting is what happened??

 

Thats what you think Horus duped Russ with? And you think the Emperor never even dreamt of a situation where Magnus' life might be forfiet. It never even crossed his mind. He never sent a Psy-Titan because he thought, hey, they might need to blast some big as gruk psyker?? No, the Emperor sent it as what? A prison guard?

 

 

I am having serious difficulties with the scenario you are painting.

 

 

 

 

I would say that is an appropriate force (and uniquely tailored to), if nessecary, persecute an attack to remove a rebellious Psyker Primarch and his Legion. The Wolves are enough force.

[Dantay VI]

Yes, there was the writ and the Censure Host. The host was to bring Magnus back and to make a show of force.

 

We do not know what Horus' message was to Russ, but it went from arrest aaManus and bring him back to Terra, to destroy Magnus and his legion.

 

Inferno makes it pain, in Wolf King, Bjorn says as much that the legion was fooled into its assault on the Thousand Sons.

 

You seem to forget that, as Warmaster, Horus speaks as the Emperors proxy and has authority in all things, plus we do not knw the argument/ orders that Horus used to change Russ' position.

 

We do knw that Russ tried to stop the war happening before committing his forces on Prospero.

[LukeTheButcher]

I am only aware of One writ in inferno. I don't consider it a 'Capture alive' order. I am unaware of any further evidence in that book to suggest there was a new writ.

 

Consider this though: 

 

You suggest the writ was to bring back Magnus with a show of force. You have absolutly no fall back position if Magnus resisted. What were they going to do then if your view of the 'original' writ is correct, if Magnus refused? Come back home and ask for a new writ?

 

Also consider this: If Horus had changed the writ, then Russ giving Magnus a chance to surrender was itself a violation of Imperial Law. And so was Valdor pushig Russ to give Magnus more time! Really.... out of the whole Imperium... those Two defying the Emperor's Will (as advised by his proxy, the Warmaster Horus...). No. It is unthinkable, so I can only conclude that the writ was not changed. And if that is the case, a Dead Magnus was always a possible outcome. Logic.

 

Also consider this;  in one breath you claim we don't know the message Horus sent to Russ, but in the next you are convinced Horus changed the whole nature of the writ.  hmmmm. Bit of a contradiction that. Can you see why I might have my doubts over this line of reasoning?

 

Inferno dosen't make it plain. I've also read it and I have infered something utterly different to you. As for Wolf-King... well, its not Inferno (ie the definitive guide to the HH events of Prospero...). Bjorn's interpretation is that of a man who was a foot-soldier on Prospero..

 

Horus does speak for the Emperor. But I have seen nothing to convince me that Horus changed Russ' position. Ergo, the capture or killing of Magnus was always the outcome. And so Horus didn't have any impact on Russ' outlook or decisions. But Magnus did. This was 'Death by Cop' from Magnus, forcing Russ to act, but he bottled it at the last minute....

[TheRealMcCagh]

Doesn't Russ outright say he was manipulated in Scars? As I recall, he laments not being there (on Istvaan V) to save Ferrus more than his actions on Prospero. If I remember right, we have Magnus saying Russ was manipulated, Horus saying he manipulated Russ, Russ saying he was manipulated by Horus, Hawser asking if they are being manipulated by Horus, and Russ going against the original censure order after talking with Horus. That's a lot of evidence of manipulation, and the counter argument you're presenting is 'the Emperor knew who/what Russ was before he sent him'

[Karack Blackstone]

Horus changed the orders knowingly, by the time Russ had a second check-in with the chain of command.

 

Russ chose to show his Brother Primarch, Magnus, a chance, some semblance of humility and a way to let the Emperor know that Magnus was at the very least willing to talk.

 

That Horus altered a standing order based upon the authority that the Emperor Himself gave to his Chosen Son is known to us. What is not known to me is the why, although, for lack of a better frame of reference, Horus made the change in the orders to see to it that the Heresy went into full swing and that the Wolves and the attached Terran elements were tied up fighting against Magnus and the Thousand Sons Legion, and to drive the single greatest chance the Imperium had, the aid of the TSons led by a properly chastised Primarch, Magnus, to aid the Loyalists in the coming fighting.

 

I get that people think Magnus is evil, due to how the events played out on Prospero, he was proven to be unable to check his pursuit of power and knowledge.

 

What I do not get yet is why people seem to be so willing to not see what could have been in this case. If Magnus had taken the chance to surrender, to let the Emperor make an accounting of him and his Legion, and to see if Magnus could support the Imperial cause, this one incident playing out differently could have helped end the Heresy before it ever truly began.

 

Do we know if there was a detachment of Sons of Horus that went and spoke to Magnus at any time during the prelude to the Scouring of Prospero?

 

Because if there is any evidence of Horus playing both actors involved, it should prove to at least some measure that Horus manipulated Russ, and indeed, played a gamble rather well. Bjorn knew, by seeing the Big E in action that the Emperor was, is, and shall be fallible; the major issue is here that, Russ, and even Bjorn himself, are also fallible.

 

To know one can fail is to at least be able to account for the possibility of said failure; to deny that one can fail is to deny oneself the very truth of existence: failure is always an option, mitigation of failure is the key to victory in battle. How is the very single most important part.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Okay, I wanna drive this back on topic and less about the Battle of Prospero itself. If we wanna debate that, there is a subforum a litle below this one that would be perfect, as it focuses on this time period, or even a separate topic in this subforum.

 

I will answer Karack's question about the actions of the Sons of Horus, then I hope this will be taken elsewhere to halt derailing this further. The Sons of Horus had no known communication with Magnus or the Thousand Sons, mostly attacked civilian population and are thought to have taken those with the strongest warp presence. Inferno notes that after Prospero, the number of rogue and tainted psykers attached to Horus's forces is significantly increased. 

 

 

At this point, please discuss the novel.

[Fang_Guard23]

In the book the thousand son was a little annoying when comparing his legions power to the power of the space wolves. throughout the history of the space wolves, both legion and chapter, they've displayed that when it comes to psykers their power is wielded and harnessed differently than those of other legions

[Wolf Guard Dan]

Odd thing i noticed in the book, he head or tech marine in red, our Orion priests don't wear red

 

Wasn't the Iron Priest in the third edition supplement wearing red?

 

Just finished Lukas the Trickster. Better book that Ashes. Although if you can't take insults against the SW maybe it won't be your cup of tea. The Dark Eldar like to insult everyone.

[Kasper_Hawser]

So am I right to deduce that the Space Wolves has a bona fide Heresy era Thousand Sons sorceror loyalist in their custody now? As in alive and not dead? 

 

Somehow, this has the potential to go really sideways depending on:

 

A - .... how much the TS sorceror understands the depth of Magnus errors and the dupe of Tzeetch. If he was a line sorceror sergeant or even a Captain, I doubt he knows the whole deal. Heck, Ahriman didn't know the whole deal. In which case, he may still be a pompous idiot who thinks the Warp is safe for all to use, although I admit its unlikely.

 

B - .... whether the Wolves have any protocol on dealing with turncoat CSM, which I have to admit, I almost never here of a "current" 40K CSM returning to the imperium, apart from the Fallen the Dark Angels catch of course, which I understand very few actually surrender to the DA.

 

 

 

Odd thing i noticed in the book, he head or tech marine in red, our Orion priests don't wear red

 

Wasn't the Iron Priest in the third edition supplement wearing red?

 

Just finished Lukas the Trickster. Better book that Ashes. Although if you can't take insults against the SW maybe it won't be your cup of tea. The Dark Eldar like to insult everyone.

 

 

really? I think I'll pick it up then. We've been dealing with furry jokes for years now since TWC came out. Nothing could be worse than TWC.

 

Odd thing i noticed in the book, he head or tech marine in red, our Orion priests don't wear red

 

Wasn't the Iron Priest in the third edition supplement wearing red?

 

Just finished Lukas the Trickster. Better book that Ashes. Although if you can't take insults against the SW maybe it won't be your cup of tea. The Dark Eldar like to insult everyone.

 

 

really? I think I'll pick it up then. We've been dealing with furry jokes for years now since TWC came out. Nothing could be worse than TWC.

[Jarl Caldersson]

The Loyalist is trapped in the maze still. If the Loyalist 1ksons attempt to leave the curse of dust immediately kills them. It seems the maze has made exempted them from the curse for now. I could see the SW's eventually breaking them out somehow to mend the damage done by both chapters. Loyalist 1kson helped us find the lost 13th in the maze, we help them escape the maze.

 

The Loyalist 1kson has seen what Magnus has done and he seems to be sickened by what Magnus has become.

 

The Imperium has dealt with loyalist from traitor legions look at the knights errant. They will probably be asked to remove their markings and adopt a new chapter and cover up their geneseed footprint. Dissapear amongst the hundred of UM successors.

[Kasper_Hawser]

The Imperium has dealt with loyalist from traitor legions look at the knights errant. They will probably be asked to remove their markings and adopt a new chapter and cover up their geneseed footprint. Dissapear amongst the hundred of UM successors.

 

That was 10K years ago though when Malcador was around to lay foundation of Inquisition. As mentioned, I haven't read/heard in current 40K of a CSM returning to loyalist fold, whether original legion or a renegade chapter.

 

Oh wait, there was the Knights of Blood that was excomunicated but in the end turned up in the Devastation of Baal and sacrificed themselves away from their regular chapter battle brothers, but even then they were not "taken in" by the BA so to speak, just left alone to do their thing. although excommunicated doesn't mean CSM..

 

Poor 1K son, stuck like a minotaur in a labyrith. Wonder who put him there though, I thought Magnus transported EVERYONE in his reach to Prospero, with the exceptin of those NOT on the planet, like the fleet components.

[Jarl Caldersson]

A certain group of 1ksons retreated into the maze, the 13th then followed them in pursuit.

[Krakendoomcool]

Literally just found this now. Will be getting upto speed.

[Triszin]

finished the book, found it after I misplaced it.

 

but from the sounds of it the the wolves retreived

 

13th company

Wolf lord:

- bulveye

command:

-command squads

---Terminators

---Marines

 

the first champion of russ

ulfar, termintor armor with a chain axe, missle pods and a storm bolter? ( blew up a chaos tainted ogryn)

 

Troops:

multple legion era Grey slayer squads

multiple legion era devastator, support squads

multiple legion era terminator squads

 

dreadnaughts!

- a few dreadnaughts were stated, by which versions and names not present

 

equipment:

x1 stormbird

x3-5 thunderhawks

- gunships were stated, some were outright stated as thunderhawks, so I assume the rest were

x2-3 sicarian tanks (one was stated to be fully kitted with laz)

x1 mastadon

X5+rhinos

x? a few landraiders

 

and the biggest thing to come back?

 

x3 iron priests from Hersey era

-- this could mean that wolves could start to produce legion era equipment again

-----teach our techmarines to produce equipment through science, repair our damaged fang

-----40k tech marines could teach helfrost weapon tech, then 30k perfect it and mass produce it

-- especially since the legion era tech marine looked down on the mechanicum and the religious tendencies they had

 

 

so sounds like the 13th co, that isn't wulfen turned, will be around 40k great company sized, but with legion era equipment

 

 

gives me hope for the new lore and codex

 

in addition to that

 

I am focusing on all the positives

 

 

Issaakar and njal understand each other now, and imparted some knowledge on each other

 

there was a part where njal used the wyrd to increase his physical abilities and ran several kilometers in terminator armor in a few minutes, mixing enhanced speed with mini gate jumps to accelerate his speed. the terminator armor was described almost like a train, taking a while to build up speed initially before moving at frightening speeds. ( issakaar was impressed by this use, otherwise mainly looked down on njal for most of the book)

 

in anodd way, both the wolves and tsons issakar are right and wrong with how they use the warp.

wolves and scars channel it through planet/planet deities as shamans to act as a safeguard buffer

while issakar and tsons (pre heresey) used it as close to scientists as possible, often not viewing the negatives as they should have.

 

so if njal mixes a little of control, but with the shamanistic habits of wolves, then I could see Njal becoming a mystic, able to manipulate the warp, while always being on the defensive.