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Death Guard vs the Tournament

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#1
McElMcNinja

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Tournament time is upon me, I have 5 that I plan on attending. My number one concern is that I only know how I do against my local meta. I don't know why the lists that are winning tournaments do so well. What is the biggest challenge for Death Guard against them? Any input is appreciated as I am trying to finalize a list so I can start practicing.

#2
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That’s a good question. I don’t think you’re as adverse to playing Nurgle dameons as I am and I think that gives you an advantage. But as far as opponents I think it’s hard to say until we see the March (?) chapter approved.

I still feel Astra is so incredibly strong. It’s always given me massive problems. The ITC variant features BA Allies

DA plasma Fort is pretty darn good. Then there’s always Guilliman lists. Of all the new stuff it feels like Thousand Sons will give you a run. They have numbers and such a punishing Psychic phase that can shut our Psychic phase down ( which I feel we rely heavily on ). It’s just my opinion but with the current Psychic phase Thousand Sons have it can make Magnus more survivable without have no to rely on that old Changling crap. He’s a beast.

Of the old stuff, until they change Eldar, then Guardian spam and Reapers / flyers etc are always good.

How are you doing against this stuff?

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#3
McElMcNinja

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Where I play it's usually pure armies, once against an eldar/dark eldar. The army I have lost to its nids, I'm 1-2 against him, otherwise I have tabled my opponents.

I am not saying I am that good, but they just play with what they have and I have a larger selection to choose from. So I can run different lists and I know I am going up against the same old list I fought 2 weeks ago.

Which I know won't be the case at tournament. This is the list I am close to finalizing.
HQ
Daemon Prince w/wings, hellforged sword, & arch-contaminator (WL trait)
Chaos Lord w/plasma p. & balesword.
Malignant Plaguecaster w/pandemic staff (relic)
Malignant Plaguecaster

Troops
7 Plague Marines w/3 plasma guns & a plague sword
7 Plague Marines w/2 meltaguns, a plasma gun, & a plague sword
20 Chaos Cultists w/9 autoguns, 9 auto pistols & brutal assault weapons, heavy stubber, & shotgun

Elites
Foul Blightspawn
Plague Surgeon
5 Blightlord Terminators w/3 combi-bolters, 3 bubotic axes, blight launcher, flail of corruption, balesword

Fast
Foetid Bloat-drone w/ fleshmower
Foetid Bloat-drone w/ 2 plaguespitters
3 Myphtic Blight-haulers

Comes to 2,000 and 8 CP.

Which are the toys I have had the best games with (i.e. tabling someone by turn 3.)

I'm thinking of using a CP to give my FB the Helm and swap out either the melta-guns or plasma guns for blight launchers.

Edited by McElMcNinja, 01 March 2018 - 01:07 AM.


#4
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Okay this is just for conversation.... and I'm sure (hopeful) it will spark conversation from people who have played harder tournaments than I have with Deathguard (I have not played very competitively with my Deathguard. BUT we do have 'no holds' barred and it can be... very competitive as far as list making).

 

So take all this with a grain of salt.

 

I like how you've figured out extra CP's. It does shock me though that you have no poxwalkers. Thus no Typhus.

 

 

Troops:

So the fact you're using the Plagumarines with so much success truly blows me away. I love using them, but even with the Blighthaulers, I've just found them too expensive and not damaging enough to make my tightest lists. Would you rank your Plague Marines that highly in your list's success? 

 

HQ's:

I think this is a fun/fine mix. Plaguecasters are good value. Nothing crazy, but the Deathguard psychic phase is definitely flexible. The thing for me is the D.P. in your list. I definitely think they are a must have for most lists (some don't need them) but no Supporating Plate is surprising, and I always take dual talons. So my question in this case is... why the sword over the talons? Second question, what power would you give him?

 

Elites:

I actually love the Foul Blightspawn. I think he's underrated for competitive play, and there's nothing like the look on your opponent's face when the toilet cannon goes off and takes down their precious flyer.... 

 

The Plaguesurgeon. I love this guy. He was one of my first painted DG elites. But someone here kept questioning my use of him, and over time I started to keep actual track of just how many times he was converting a '1' into a fnp pass. I started finding myself attracted to other options. How are you finding him? 

 

As a side note, I started using the Helm with him and that DID improve his output, however I hated using my relic on him over the other choices.

 

FAST:

 

So I've played a lot with the multi Blight haulers, but found 3 very expensive. Is the +1 ballistic skill helping you that much? You actually have a fairly small cluster of infantry (no Poxwalkers) so you might be able to get away with 2... unless you're just enjoying 3 that much?

 

Personally I love Blightlords, but not giving them Combi-Melta or plasma here is killing me. :) 


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#5
McElMcNinja

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I had been running 2 units of Poxwalkers and 1 unit of PMs, but I got frustrated that I had so many points not doing anything. I realized I could get a Plaguecaster and a Lord for roughly the same points as Typhus, so why take him and the Poxwalkers. Plus I was advancing my Poxwalkers faster then my Marines and I don't like to get spread out. I like to overwhelm with numbers and move to the next target.

Being able to rapid fire at 18 allows me to keep my distance from most units and still put out a lot of shots. My Cultists and PMs may not put out tons of damage, but it's better then having units not doing anything. Add in the mix the haulers and I have Marines with a 2+ save/Cultists 5+ and the lords rerolls of 1's.

DP with sword & curse of the lepper, accompanied by 2 drones. Most horde type mob has low T, curse them before I charge plus the plague spitters. Crash into them with the mower, DP, & the other drone. Nothing really survives. Going up against multiple wound units with a higher T and the sword shines, plus the mower and drone.
I am torn between the plate and the staff for the caster. I like the 7+ Fallout rolls that give mortal wounds and the staff helps. It also helps getting smite to d6 damage while the plate does best in CC, but not much has swung back after I have charged.

The Plague Sprayer, hands down the best weapon, is just a bonus to what the FB does. I have been charged with up to 5 units in a phase, heroic intervened with my lord, BF, and both casters (who can't be targeted becasuse they weren't charged), sure they may kill some Cultists, but I kill units off.

Haulers, I set them up 2" apart then my screen of Cultists in front. I put a unit of PM's on the rear flanks and all my characters in the middle. I set up 9" away from a table edge and spread out as far as I can and still keep all the buffs. On the open end is my DP and drones, so if they deep strike a drone is the closest target, which can be tough to kill. The next turn I can charge and do my thing. The Blightlords I deep strike for objectives or to trap something between them and my DP. I would rather load them up with combo-meltas but I don't own enough and most tournaments are WYSIWYG. So I try not to use them for anti-armour, unless that's what I "need" them to do.

The Tri-lobe, moves and shoots heavy with no penalty. Hitting on a 3+, rerolling 1's from the lord. That's 3 multi-melta shot, 3 missles, and potentially 3 bile spurts. Any transport headed towards my blob is vaporized leaving what's left inside to a whole bunch of rapid fire auto/bolter guns. The real tricky part is keeping my own troop further then 3" in case 1 explodes and 7" for the bonus.

I really try avoiding their heavies via LoS blocking or being in combat, things like that. I did have a game where he plopped 5 dark reaper on the board and he managed to kill 1 hauler, the next turn there were no more reapers. So point for point, I think all 3 are worth it.

Plague Surgeon is there because I wanted 3 elite choices for the CP. I only need one FB, the Blightbringer would be a good choice if I take Poxwalkers. The Tallyman isn't a bad choice but I've never gotten a CP back and his ability is only in CC and I've got the lord so I'm only really missing on 2's. The Surgeon is helping most units just survive, I don't have a lot so that's a big deal for me. The Putrifier is risky, if you get to use his ability it could change 8 s4 0ap 1 damage shots into 4xd6 s4 0ap 2 damage shots. But they have to be 6" or less away, I don't know if he's worth it over the Surgeon.

Edited by McElMcNinja, 01 March 2018 - 03:34 AM.

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#6
BlackTriton

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In theory, I would value the biologus more than the surgeon in your list.
They are both defensive unit, the RR on DR wont do much on a few plague marine, its better paired with poxwalker.
The biologus allow plague marine to react to anything that assault you with 8+D6 attack, damage 2, mortal wound on 6 or 5.
In theory, it allows you to deal a lot better with: shining spear, custodian bike, melee hive tyrant, all things I am told are prevalant in competitive.

#7
McElMcNinja

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I like the idea of the Putrefier over the Surgeon, but unless the unit charging me starts within 6" I won't be able to use his ability. Unless of course I get within 6" on my turn, I will definitely try it before March Madness.

#8
McElMcNinja

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Updated list:
HQ
DP w/wings, hellforged sword, malefic talon
Chaos Lord w/plasma p., balesword
Malignant Plaguecaster
Malignant Plaguecaster

Troops
21 Chaos Cultists w/9 autogun, 9 auto p., 2 heavy stubber, shotgun
7 PM's w/2 blight launcher, 1 plasma gun, 1 plague sword
7 PM's w/2 blight launcher, 1 plasma gun, 1 plague sword

Elites
Foul Blightspawn
Plague Surgeon
5 Blightlord Terminators w/2 combo-bolter, 1 combo-melta, 1 blight launcher, 1 flail of corruption, 1 balesword, 3 bubotic axe

Fast
Foetid Bloat-drone w/fleshmower
Foetid Bloat-drone w/2 plaguespitter
3 Myphitic Blight-haulers

I do want to play test with the Putrifier and reexamine my warlord and relics.

#9
SkimaskMohawk

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I'd drop the the Plague marines to 5 man squads since 7 doesn't do anything other than pad them. I personally prefer Blight launchers with a arch contaminator chaos lord, but plasma works really nice too. Really not a fan of melta this edition

Curse of the leper kind of sucks imo. Against most chaf you need to roll 4s to do damage, so you get 3ish wounds off a 7 to cast power. That being said you have 2 other psykers, so it depends what you give them.

3 haulers is pretty hefty as an investment. They don't put out that much damage for their price, which is what 8th is in the tournament scene. Their support buffs are nice, but not really worth having 3 for 3 squads of Marines and some dudes. Helbrutes can give a bit more damage output for the same cost. They also help fill in the elite choice for my next point.

Don't take the surgeon. Unsurprisingly I was the one prot was talking about. He's really not worth the investment as it's around a 5% chance of failing a DR, rolling a 1 and then passing it off the reroll. I love the model, I love the janky fun you can do with the relic sword and blades on this guy vs Astartes. He's terrible to actually help your army; 1/20 wounds will be saved from his ability. There's not enough dudes rolling DR to even try and leverage it.

A tallyman has a 16% chance of refunding you CP by comparison. Triple the chance of producing value via rng, plus he has a pretty sweet melee reroll.

Blightspawn is really annoying due to the gun, though I definitely feel it's aura is marginal at best. In friendly games against things like orks or hormagaunts where they need to pile in units I can see the usefulness. Against tournament lists, the only melee units aren't going to care if your plaguemarines will be able to interupt, or support characters; they'll target them all with the charge. Things like triple shield captain will carve through pretty much all of your blob. Still the gun helps hose down whatever you just fall back from. Wouldn't suggest the relic helm on it though.
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#10
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Yup... more than a few people heavily questioned my use of Tallyman. in a foot slogging list I've found him irreplaceable. The CP refund is just icing.

 

I was using 3 Blighthaulers for  quite a few games when they first came out. I think they're a super cool unit, and you are using them better than I was (you have more actual Plague Marines) however I often questioned my sanity after spending that many points trying to save footsloggers.... BUT I had to use bellboy with them just because they need to be able to run, and shoot (which they can!) and he helps there. I would say you could get away without the bell guy but a lot of people swear by him. (I often roll two dice keeping the first and testing to see what the 'bonus' dice would do...it's surprisingly negligible) But it's worth noting since you have so much invested in ground pounders.


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#11
McElMcNinja

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I had to submit my list today, I swapped out the Surgeon for the Tallyman and gave my DP the plate relic. The tournament allows you to nominate warlord and trait, plus buy more relics before each match.

So which armies (if any) should I be concerned about people snipping my warlord?

#12
McElMcNinja

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https://i.imgur.com/quNrxIa.jpg
So that's what my 2k points looks like, still have a hauler to finish, 10 Cultists, a Tallyman, and some blight launcher Marines
https://i.imgur.com/LsJouLt.jpg
This is a closer look at some of the finished ones. A converted lord with balesword and plasma p., a converted Plaguecaster from the bell guy, and my 4 armed DP. Plus the Blightlords I finished in the back.

Edited by McElMcNinja, 03 March 2018 - 06:01 AM.

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#13
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Those look great. I almost missed the Blightlords in the back. Really nice use of the greens and bone colours for contrast. 

 

I think you should look at this first one as an opportunity to learn your meta. I couldn't guess what is big in your area of the world, but if they follow what's winning, then you'll see Eldar, daemons, Guilliman, Blood Angels/Astra and Eldar, with some more Eldar. :)


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#14
McElMcNinja

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So I played 2 games today, the first against Custodes and the second Eldar/Dark Eldar.

I was not expecting Custodes to be in my face first turn, it was brutal (but so much fun). I lost while learning so much, he was a tournament veteran and coached me through what I would see. He made some good suggestions, but since I have submitted my list can't make certain changes. At the end he had Eisenhorn and a unit of GK that were to far out of range to do anything except hold an objective while I had a hauler left.

The second game vs the Eldar which I tabled him in 4 turns. The haulers shined in this game, took out 2 transports before he could disembark. One unit of 6 fire dragon and some special character with a 2+ invulnerable save while the second one was a bunch of dire avengers and his farseer warlord. The fire dragons were consumed by my DP and drones. The dire avengers were dealt with quickly by 2 units of PM's and the DP finished off the farseer.

Props go to the Foul Blightspawn and his most awesome gun, it took out a Fire Prism in 1 turn. Albeit it was some awesome rolling and 1 CP (I rolled a 1 on number of shot and got a 6 after reroll) at strength 11 and he failed all his saves.

I picked up the rest of the minis I needed including the Tallyman, whom out of both games and 16 CP got me back 4 (2 twice). His rerolls helped very much too, so thank you for that suggestion.

QFxlJH5.jpg
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Edited by McElMcNinja, 04 March 2018 - 03:51 AM.

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#15
DominikB

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Firstly great write-up, thoroughly enjoyed reading it and see how this still of list did. I really need to get myself a blight spawn. I also love the marines!

How do you compare the two drones? Is the mower worth it?

#16
McElMcNinja

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Good news for me, I have till Friday to submit an updated list. So second guessing myself here, I am thinking about this.

Typhus (WL)
DP w/sword and plate
Plaguecaster

Troops
7x Plague Marines w/1 plasma, 1 sword, & 2 blight launchers
7x Plague Marines w/1 plasma, 1 sword, & 2 blight launchers
19 Poxwalkers

Elites
Foul Blightspawn
Tallyman
5x Blightlord Terminators w/2 combo-bolter, 3 axes, blight launcher, flail, combo-melta, balesword

Fast
Drone w/mower
Drone w/2x plaguespitters
3x Myphtic Blight-haulers

Dropping the Lord, Plaguecaster, and Cultists for Typhus and some Poxwalkers. I lose a CP for not having 4 HQ choices, but 7 is better then 8 anyway. It also means I lose the Lords re-rolls, I had been using that primarily as my plasma gun protection.
The Cultists kept running away and their shots weren't adding much value, so that was an easy choice. If I'm going to take Poxwalkers, then Typhus should be there to keep them in line.

#17
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Yes... excellent write up! I hope you do more of these as you continue your journey.

+ Tallyman is something I’ve been very happy with but I don’t push him too hard on the forum because he hasn’t been that popular and secondly I understand that there are a lot of DG lists that simply don’t benefit enough from him, so I didn’t want to push him too hard on you but I really did think you were playing a mechanically similar list to mine. I’m glad you are liking him.

+ The first game against the tournament vet. You mentioned Custodes, Grey Knights and Greg. So the Custodes I assume were bikes and Shield Capt? I’m guessing here but aside from a Bro Capt in a Dreadknight, I’m not sure how else could have hit you so hard in T1.

In truth I think DG can do well against that type of army.... DG have great resilience, and Custodes largely do burst damage in CC. I think if you can hold him up a turn and get smites/mortal wounds rolling, you’ll be okay. FnP will be pretty big.

+ How many Reapers did the Eldar player have?

I am personally trying to pick between Custodes, DG, and Mechanicus for some things I’d like to attend. I can’t seem to make up my mind but I really seem to have gravitated towards a Hybrid list of elite DG and Poxwalkers and I really don’t know how much I like that playstyle, so it’s fun to read this for me. I sure am enjoying the Custodes models right now hobby wise but I think DG certainly have more flexibility and are probably more competitive.

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#18
DominikB

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Good news for me, I have till Friday to submit an updated list. So second guessing myself here, I am thinking about this.

Typhus (WL)
DP w/sword and plate
Plaguecaster

Troops
7x Plague Marines w/1 plasma, 1 sword, & 2 blight launchers
7x Plague Marines w/1 plasma, 1 sword, & 2 blight launchers
19 Poxwalkers

Elites
Foul Blightspawn
Tallyman
5x Blightlord Terminators w/2 combo-bolter, 3 axes, blight launcher, flail, combo-melta, balesword

Fast
Drone w/mower
Drone w/2x plaguespitters
3x Myphtic Blight-haulers

Dropping the Lord, Plaguecaster, and Cultists for Typhus and some Poxwalkers. I lose a CP for not having 4 HQ choices, but 7 is better then 8 anyway. It also means I lose the Lords re-rolls, I had been using that primarily as my plasma gun protection.
The Cultists kept running away and their shots weren't adding much value, so that was an easy choice. If I'm going to take Poxwalkers, then Typhus should be there to keep them in line.


I ran a PW heavy list with Typhus at the LCO this year, and I was disappointed in him tbh. He was slow and never got stuck in, for his points I’d just take more PW tbh. The stuff he PW foght I wounded on 5 anyway or I’d i needed I could simply buff them with extra toughness, especially since I used them to tie stuff up and sit on objectives. I felt I’d have gotten more mileage with a MPC and a lord instead, especially allowing some rerolls for my Preds.

#19
McElMcNinja

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Foetid Bloat-drones, if I could only choose one to take it would be a tough choice.
Running the plaguespitter means getting close, but they auto hit and if he is charged his shots auto hit, then he can fly out and shoot again.
The mower means getting closer and I use him to soak up overwatch shots before charging my DP.

#20
McElMcNinja

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So if I take out all the Cultists and 1 Plague Marine from each unit, I can add 19 Poxwalkers to my previous list.

#21
McElMcNinja

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You'll have to excuse me that I don't know all the unit names out there. The Custodes had bikes and walker thing that teleported first round and deep strike a lot of Terminators. The walker killed off a drone, but then I targeted it with my haulers and it was gone. I then just started to get whittled down slowly. Turn 2 my haulers took out a unit of Terminators and my DP fleshmower took out another unit. By the time I realized how good the bikes were it was too late for me.
I have fought Custodes a few times now and while they are beefy. With enough concentrated fire power I was destroying units wholesale, but it was a unit or 2 per turn. The trade off was he didn't have to concentrate his shooting to put a hurt on me. If it wasn't for DR I don't think I would have a chance against them.

He only had 1 unit of 6? reapers, but thanks to terrain I only left troops as a viable target for him after they showed up. So I think they only killed a drone and some marines.

I now think going Poxwalkers over Cultists is a better option. I was hoping that having more guns to shoot would help, but they only stick around for a turn and if I don't go first they are useless.

The Tallyman has earned his spot on the roster, the CP is ok, but rerolling failed hits in combat is very nice. Kind of funny he allows rerolls in combat, yet doesn't get a close combat weapon. Guess he's too busy counting to get burden with actual combat.

Edited by McElMcNinja, 04 March 2018 - 06:03 PM.


#22
Prot

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Well how did the Custodes deal with your Psychic phase? I would have thought that to quite painful for him. I know it’s a problem for my Custodes.

Poxwalkers are always my choice over Cultists. They don’t have to be a massive multi horde to work.

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#23
McElMcNinja

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He had 2 (maybe 3) GK units and he was blasting me with his smite and it seemed he had a lot of deny chances.

I have 3 casters and 5 chances to get spells off. I cast smite when the right target(s) present themselves, but I prefer buffing certain units first. I do this and maybe a stratagem to help persuade my opponent to target other stuff.

I guess I could cast my smites first and hope he uses up all his denies before I start buffing, but I've noticed most players don't try to deny buffs. As a DG army smite doesn't scare me, having DR has spoiled me. I would rather him cast smite then enhance his chances against me outside of the psychic. At least I get a save vs mortal wounds, but I can't stop his buffs later.

#24
DominikB

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Another thing to consider instead of typhus is a second daemon Prince

#25
McElMcNinja

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I've decided to forego Typhus all together. I think he would be more of a distraction for my opponents, but me as well. Sure he buffs the Poxwalkers, but the lord allows re-rolls which helps everyone.

Now it was suggested that I take Morty and in order to do so I would take out my DP and drones. I do think that is viable option if I compare what he would do vs what they would do (for the points), but...?




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