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Warhammer 20K


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#26
Skaorn

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I'm not saying you haven't read this in a GW source but this is what I found with a quick search:
http://wh40k.lexican...om/wiki/Waaagh!
The point is that Ork fluff seems to change more than others depending on who's writing. I don't see why Orks shouldn't have Gork and Mork or would be lesser than they currently are in 20k.

 
Don't know what it is in that article you are referring to. The entire first paragraph in "Waaagh! as a Psychic Field" that has no citation? Or something else? Regardless, the Lexicanum is hardly a source. From WAAARGH! Orks to the 4th and 7th edition codices, the fluff I've read has been consistent, or at least not contradictory. The 7th edition codex omitted a lot of fluff on the Orks as a species, and instead focused on smaller viewpoints, such as the Red WAAAGH!!!
And I don't see why good fluff should be re-written for a 20k game.

I'm not ignoring fluff, just pointing out that there are two sides to the argument about a piece of background. After some further online research of blog, forum, and wiki posts on the subject I found that the fluff does apparently appear in a codex but people are divided on whether it is caused by the Waaagh or that the Imperium couldn't understand the tech so they called it witchcraft. As for Lexicanum, I find it an ok source of fluff and is regularly used here and on other forums that I have to use since I have no Ork codexes. Either way I'm done researching this topic and hold to it being dependent on the writer.
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#27
Skaorn

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So in all seriousness would the various Xenos even be a threat to humanity? If the implications of the dark age are even half true.


I don't see why not. The MoI were used for everything and they rebelled, so humanity has to pull together an army. The Eldar Empire is completely off the rails and heading straight for Slannesh. A massive war makes for a lot of opportunity for species like Orks who were being culled or others who might even rival humans. It's even possible that powerful species like the Slann are active.
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#28
toaae

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I'm not ignoring fluff, just pointing out that there are two sides to the argument about a piece of background. After some further online research of blog, forum, and wiki posts on the subject I found that the fluff does apparently appear in a codex but people are divided on whether it is caused by the Waaagh or that the Imperium couldn't understand the tech so they called it witchcraft. As for Lexicanum, I find it an ok source of fluff and is regularly used here and on other forums that I have to use since I have no Ork codexes. Either way I'm done researching this topic and hold to it being dependent on the writer.

 

I know this is ironic, but don't trust online sources. For anyone else confused, the common perception that Orks can just believe anything into reality and this is how they work is flat out wrong. It is based on a few references, taken greatly out of context and morphed, and then regurgitated around by people that don't know Ork fluff. I don't try to quote Eldar fluff that I read on the internet, because I don't follow Eldar fluff. I do follow Ork fluff, and have several editions of codices and source books. Orks technology actually works. They don't understand it, but they build it and use it effectively. Ork Resonance makes certain Ork intricacies real, like red paint making Ork vehicles slightly faster, but it isn't the single source of everything they do.

Finally, Ork fluff is largely consistent, just poorly understood and also incredibly out of vogue. Even a series about Orks, The Beast Arises, spent far more pages on Chaos Space Marines than it did on Orks.


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#29
Skaorn

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I'm not ignoring fluff, just pointing out that there are two sides to the argument about a piece of background. After some further online research of blog, forum, and wiki posts on the subject I found that the fluff does apparently appear in a codex but people are divided on whether it is caused by the Waaagh or that the Imperium couldn't understand the tech so they called it witchcraft. As for Lexicanum, I find it an ok source of fluff and is regularly used here and on other forums that I have to use since I have no Ork codexes. Either way I'm done researching this topic and hold to it being dependent on the writer.


I know this is ironic, but don't trust online sources. For anyone else confused, the common perception that Orks can just believe anything into reality and this is how they work is flat out wrong. It is based on a few references, taken greatly out of context and morphed, and then regurgitated around by people that don't know Ork fluff. I don't try to quote Eldar fluff that I read on the internet, because I don't follow Eldar fluff. I do follow Ork fluff, and have several editions of codices and source books. Orks technology actually works. They don't understand it, but they build it and use it effectively. Ork Resonance makes certain Ork intricacies real, like red paint making Ork vehicles slightly faster, but it isn't the single source of everything they do.
Finally, Ork fluff is largely consistent, just poorly understood and also incredibly out of vogue. Even a series about Orks, The Beast Arises, spent far more pages on Chaos Space Marines than it did on Orks.

I can confirm that the several sources I read online were correct. There is fluff supporting that Ork tech works due to a psychic field. You can find it on the last page of the 3rd Ed codex, in the second to last paragraph of genetor Lukas Anzion's report. I'm not going to bother with quoting it and I don't really care if it's how Ork tech works or not, but the fluff is there and you can read it yourself.
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#30
Lexington

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A mantra of reading all 40K background should be "this is made up, two mutually exclusive ideas can both be true."
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#31
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Problem with Warhammer 20k is that it's just another Sci fi.

What makes 30k and 40k so exciting is the fact it's set AFTER human civilization has utterly collapsed, and what rose to take it's place is so different to the expected way of human development.
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#32
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Problem with Warhammer 20k is that it's just another Sci fi.
What makes 30k and 40k so exciting is the fact it's set AFTER human civilization has utterly collapsed, and what rose to take it's place is so different to the expected way of human development.


40K is only really different than what you see on TV. As stated several times, it steals heavily from Dune and even the game Warzone had a similar religious anti-tech element. It's something that can be found in other Sci-fi too. The thing that differs from those is that GW added their fantasy setting to it so you now have some Tolkien and some Lovecraft too. The elements of 40k aren't all that unique in sci-fi.

Really the only thing that would be missing from 20k would be space marines and the religious element. The Men of Iron would fill the slot of SM and the follies of each faction have everything circling the drain. Humans also still had genetic engineering and cybernetics which could show up in their armies. You could even add a backwards religious faction too. The point is that it is a very different time in the setting but still part of that setting.
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#33
Bryan Blaire

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Warhammer 20K, 30K, and 40K are definitely not hard Sci-Fi (or even soft Sci-FI), they are very couched as Sci-Fantasy, in a similar vein as anything that doesn’t specifically use some (even if they are made up) scientific principles to explain portions of how things work. All of the factions (yes, even the Ad Mech with the daemonic scrap-code concept) are more Sci-Fantasy, because they use a quasi-religious “other dimension” slant with the presence of daemons, the Warp not really having set scientific rules, etc.

Because of the overall setting pieces to 40K, Warhammer 20K still wouldn’t be “just another Sci-FI” because of those unique elements, but what it would do is it struggle hard to avoid introducing 40K elements into a 20K narrative centered around humanity.
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#34
Lexington

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The elements of 40k aren't all that unique in sci-fi.


Maybe not individually, but in totality they are - or, at the very least, it's an original blend (I have a deep love of Warzone/Mutant Chronicles, but it'd be foolish to pretend they weren't heavily influenced), and one that's part of GW's overall brand. 20K would have to abandon all of that, and essentially be a new setting with only the barest threads connecting it. It'd just be an ugly franchising of the already over-franchised 40K idea.

Edited by Lexington, 05 March 2018 - 06:43 PM.

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#35
toaae

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I can confirm that the several sources I read online were correct. There is fluff supporting that Ork tech works due to a psychic field. You can find it on the last page of the 3rd Ed codex, in the second to last paragraph of genetor Lukas Anzion's report. I'm not going to bother with quoting it and I don't really care if it's how Ork tech works or not, but the fluff is there and you can read it yourself.

 

 

I'll quote it:

However, as disturbing as it sounds, these 'facts' become true. Red Ork vehicles do travel perceptibly faster than those of other colours, even when all other design aspects are nominally the same. Similarly, many captured Ork weapons and items of equipment should not work, and indeed do not work unless wielded by an Ork. I believe this is linked to the strong psychic aura surrounding all Orkoids and have developed the Anzion Theorem of Orkoid Mechamorphic Resonant Kinetics. I theorise that many Ork inventions work because the Orks themselves think that they should work. The strong telekinetic abilities of the Orks' subconscious somehow ensure that the machinery or weapon functions as desired."

 

This is a great example of what you earlier called "two sides to the argument about a piece of background". This is an in-universe, Imperial explanation of Orks. It opens up interpretation of not just Orks, but the Imperium's understanding of Orks. Can we say with certainty that the weapons captured are actually mechanically unsound? Or is it that it ecplises the writer's understanding of mechanical technology, and he can't fathom to imagine that Orks would be more advanced? That second bit is doubtful, as in a prior piece of fluff he mentions that Orks are just as intelligent as humans, and in the same piece of fluff as the resonance, Anzion talks about meks having "...an encoded knowledge of basic physics and mechanical engineering theory." Alternatively, maybe the resonant field he mentions actually "fills" in the gaps of individual weapons when they don't work right, since an Ork wouldn't take the time to inspect his weapon to check that it is proper. Finally, maybe it is just Ork magic that makes everything work. This is a good piece of fluff, because it leaves enough mysteries that can be argued over, and inspiration given to the readers.

But this tangent of a tangent didn't start cause we were debating if Ork resonance made their guns work. It came about because I mentioned that Orks of the past, especially before the War of the Beast, wouldn't be the same as the Orks of 40k. You insisted Ork fluff was inconsistent, to which I disagree. The bit I took issue with was:

One example given was an Ork tank that ran because it had a drawing of an engine in it.


Which, unless I am very much mistaken, simply doesn't exist. If it does, then that is a gross inconsistency, and I would pray that no one at GW thinks to build on it in the future. But, so long as it isn't a real piece of fluff, I stand by my point that people take Ork resonance out of context and apply it to just plain silly things. It is a powerful effect, but it isn't the end-all, be-all of Orks. And their fluff has been remarkably consistent in this regard, going back the 28 years I have available to me in codices and sourcebooks.

So, on topic, if GW were to make a game set even further back than the Horus Heresy, I don't believe we can just assume Orks could be transplanted as they are now. They certainly wouldn't be smarter, they wouldn't have Gork and Mork around to inspire Gargants and enhance the Ork Resonance. Considering the problem they gave the Emperor and the Great Crusade at Ullanor, a strong Ork empire would probably still be problematic for the Eldar empire and the humans of the Dark Age. But I don't think they'd fit with the setting of that game.
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#36
Skaorn

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We're still doing this? You were denying that Orks didn't have fluff stating that Orks tech worked because they believed it and I showed you were it did. I already pointed out that one of the theories against was that the genetor couldn't understand the workings of the tech and declared it magic. I don't care which side it is personally but my guess is that GW is open to which ever the individual wants it to be, including their writers. As stated above by Bryan, this is science fantasy (I really have a bad habit of just using sci-fi for everything) so it doesn't matter if a zap gun works because of magic or the skill of the Mek makes no difference, so it can be left up to the storyteller. This is an example of how Ork's background can be more flexible. If the Orks were more highly advanced before the Age of Strife would they still have record of it or even care?
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#37
toaae

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We're still doing this? You were denying that Orks didn't have fluff stating that Orks tech worked because they believed it and I showed you were it did. I already pointed out that one of the theories against was that the genetor couldn't understand the workings of the tech and declared it magic. I don't care which side it is personally but my guess is that GW is open to which ever the individual wants it to be, including their writers. As stated above by Bryan, this is science fantasy (I really have a bad habit of just using sci-fi for everything) so it doesn't matter if a zap gun works because of magic or the skill of the Mek makes no difference, so it can be left up to the storyteller. This is an example of how Ork's background can be more flexible. If the Orks were more highly advanced before the Age of Strife would they still have record of it or even care?

 

It's clear you just want to be right, even if you have to change the grounds of what we're discussing. We were arguing about whether Ork fluff was consistent, you going as far to say "The point is that Ork fluff seems to change more than others depending on who's writing" and "Either way I'm done researching this topic and hold to it being dependent on the writer." Suddenly, you want to make it about solely Resonance, despite me already having said " In theory, it is true, but since Orks lack the imagination...". So what is it that we're discussing now? My entry into this topic was about how Gork and Mork didn't exist or were in some manner dormant prior to sometime after the Heresy. Ork fluff isn't dependent on whoever is writing it, at least no more than anyone else. The stuff in a source book written shortly after I was born has either changed very little, or hasn't been mentioned, retcon or otherwise.

I have no idea why this conversation has lasted as long as it has.


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#38
Stark

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Obviously you don't need to rebuild the whole game on limited background. Background, books or internet, will only help you so far. 
 
Are you looking to make bare-boned lists for each of the factions?
Astartes Scouts are your super-soldiers. A mix of Admech, Necrons, & Astartes Marines are equally good candidates for "Iron Men".
This looks like an interesting variant of 40K - even for small games.

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#39
Major_Gilbear

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++Okay, I think we need to move on from why Ork tech works please++.

 

 

Chaos would probably just be a whisper and might even be responsible for the rebellion. It's also possible they might have tainted some Xenos species that gets added, but hopefully the influence is subtle.

 

Why do you think this? If Chaos was so insignificant at this point, why does the Emperor create and enforce the Imperial Truth ten thousand years later? What happens during that time?


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#40
Skaorn

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"How can you get a permit to do a damn illegal thing?" :teehee:
 
Obviously you don't need to rebuild the whole game on limited background. Background, books or internet, will only help you so far. 
 
Are you looking to make bare-boned lists for each of the factions?
Astartes Scouts are your super-soldiers. A mix of Admech, Necrons, & Astartes Marines are equally good candidates for "Iron Men".
This looks like an interesting variant of 40K - even for small games.


It's still good to get as many elements as you can to ground players in the setting, but with some twists. For instance veteran earth soldiers using power armor comparable to SM because more advanced armors have too advanced computer systems that can be hacked (a la BSG). One idea I thought of was that Ogryn actually came about as an attempt to genetically engineer super soldiers rather than the natural evolution of other abhumans. I know I like seeing nods like that in settings.

I personally would love to see individual armies made for different factions. The possibility of what could be there intrigues me. The Eldar are at the height of there power but have descended into sex, drugs, rock n' roll, and murder. They're essentially immortal, don't see past themselves, and I'm sure the Eldar arrogance towards other species is alive and well. While technically still an Empire, are they going to try to put a stop to their own people attacking someone the empire isn't at war with? Would they even care if one of their outer colonies got taken?

My answer for them is that an ancient Eldar army would essentially be an MMO guild. They'd have the precursor to spirit stones that would let them transfer their consciousness to a clone body and get sent back to their real body if they die. They don't care if they attack some other species for no reason and commit genocide, they're basically doing it for the lols. The Spyres from Necromunda have a similar methodology and I thought it would be cool to have the Eldar armed with similar suits and supported battle robots

I haven't really thought of anything beyond that and the idea might only appeal to me.
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#41
Moonreaper666

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This is my suggestions for the Human Army in 20k:


Immortals

-Basic Unit, Human Soldier

-Genetically and Cybernetically Enhanced

-Centuries long war veterans

-Armed with Railguns (Can be replaced with Volkite Rapid-Fire Rifles)

-Can Regenerate from wounds or lost limbs



Iron Men

-Can be Deepstrike

-You can spend points to deploy more of them to the location of friendly units

-Can be repaired on the field

-Several Iron Men can build one Iron Man with salvage


Baneblade Scout Tank

-Cheap Tank either piloted by humans or A.I.

-Has Railguns and Volkite Weapons

-Spend extra points for the Anti-Grav version


Annihilation Tank

-Basic Tank (By DAOT standards)

-Can go toe-to-toe with a squad of Iron Men

-Most are piloted by A.I.

-Can't put Anti-Grav Engine but comes with a Teleportation device

-Uses weapons that are superior to the Dark Eldar



You start out as a small army that grows bigger throughout the match



Chaos would be interesting to play as since Ancient Daemon Princes play much different to their modern counterparts

#42
The_son_of_Dorn

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It's like 20k is a strange Mixture of Mad max, dune, the Terminator with civilizations equivalent of Marvels Wakanda all operating in the same time frame. And tat's just Terra. Less we forget the Imperium of man was already (if I remember correctly, if I'm wrong please feel free to educate my ignorance) conquering the stars and establishing the first elements of  a galactic spanning empire, before everything went quiet.

 

Kinda why I loved 30k Though. Humanity had established itself amongst the universe before the SM's were even produced. It's like humanity in the future was already having to reclaim what is had lost in the yet to be futures past.


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#43
Indefragable

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I'd like to think that 20k was more like Star Trek ....that level of advancement, hope, cutting edge technology. But then one day Picard said "Computer, activate the..." and the Computer was like "up yours, buddy!" and vented all the airlocks.

 

Remember, whatever happened had to have been so bad as to scar the human species for the next 10,000 years.

 

I think Canticle of Leibowitz is good starting point to think about how after The Fall, humans were so enraged they went around burning books and lynching anyone who seemed intellectual at all in vengeance for the doom their creations unleashed.


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#44
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First of, that computer would be like "OMG, you're Patrick Stewart! I will do whatever you tell me!!!"

The impression I've gotten was that humanity is unified and we have the MoI doing everything, but we're still kind of crappy as the fluff seems to just discuss us warring with other species. What I imagine is that there is some kind of senate and there are different power blocks in it made up of wealthy words that are close together, like Ultramar in 40k. Essentially corrupt and driven by greed to keep expanding, but certainly better than the Eldar.
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#45
bluntblade

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In my opinion, 20K is too shrouded in mystery and too broad (the Age of Strife took a long time to set in) to do justice. The scale rather defeats any attempt to depict it, bereft of characters to anchor it.
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#46
Kinstryfe

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In my opinion, 20K is too shrouded in mystery and too broad (the Age of Strife took a long time to set in) to do justice. The scale rather defeats any attempt to depict it, bereft of characters to anchor it.


I agree. This is the era from which even a rumor of a single piece of tech surviving will start a scramble between the Mechanicus, Custodes, and anyone else unfortunate to hear it just to reclaim and replicate/destroy/lock it up. Whole worlds have burned just so the admech could get the working STC blueprints for a more efficient type of toothbrush. I'm not sure how well it would play out on the tabletop at infantry scale.

"This is a Man of Iron Cybercaptain. He's equipped with a nuclear grenade launcher and a MkVII Mini Railgun with warp void ammunition. The launcher does 3D6 mortal wounds to each model within 24" of the target point, and the Railgun does 5D6 mortal wounds to any model in a straight line drawn from it to a table edge. He has a 2++ save on 3d6, 37w, and heals 3d6 wounds at the start of every turn. He is my entire army."

"Yeah, well, I have a Humanity First Coalition kill squad of three models. They have nano-particle splitter rifles, phased atomic variance blades, and technophage nano-grenades. The rifles do 1d6 mortal wounds plus 1d6 more for each point of save you have, the blades wound on a 2+ and allow no saves, and the grenades do 10w to any mechanical model each turn after they've been hit. They only have 12w each but there's 3 of them, so it should be a fair fight."

I think the power levels talked about are so far off the 40k charts that an infantry game would just plain not work without crushing the existing lore and pointing out that "your basic Terran soldier was pretty much just like the modern imperial guard. How about that?" Now, a game like Epic, with whole platoons and giant war engines could work. Or even a BFG type game with space combat of the same. But I'm not sure how well infantry would work when they're supposed to be armed with stuff that makes Plasma Guns look like Lasguns.
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#47
Indefragable

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Fun to speculate, but I do agree part of what makes 40k 40k is that 20k is forever unknown. I mean, the whole idea that the Great Crusade was an upgrade to the human galaxy is enough to make you not want to know what happened in 20k.

Some things should stay a mystery.
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Call me Indy. It's less syllables.

 

 

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#48
Skaorn

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For one thing the scale of conflict isn't well represented in 40k. There already is galaxy wide conflict and you're playing a battle on a planet versus an opponent of equal strength. It's not even that big a battle unless you play epic.

For another there are plenty of weapons used from the DAoT like disintergrators, grav weapons, and vortex weapons in 40k. Weapons likely not to be in the hands of every soldier. Admittedly it would be hilarious if everyone got a vortex grenade. Also we can see from what has been found in STCs that humanity wasn't all that advanced in warfare, probably due to developing the Men of Iron. The Land Raider, Land Speeder, Leman Russ, Baneblade, Titans, and others don't scream super advanced to me but they were probably easy to mass produce. Some of the kits from FW for Custodes and AdMech probably represent the height of human weapons tech on the small scale. Where humanity really wins out over the Imperium is everywhere else.

You also seem to be forgetting one key thing about 40k: the Necrons. They can snuff out stars, monkey with time, and even try to seal off the Warp. They're still represented in the game though.

So while the most backwater PDF force from the DAoT would be equipped well enough to make the finest imperial regiment jealous I seriously doubt they couldn't face each other in the same system.
Obed was a sailor. He sailed the seven seas. He made love to the fish. He made love to the fish.
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#49
templargdt

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I'd like to think that 20k was more like Star Trek ....that level of advancement, hope, cutting edge technology. But then one day Picard said "Computer, activate the..." and the Computer was like "up yours, buddy!" and vented all the airlocks.

 

Remember, whatever happened had to have been so bad as to scar the human species for the next 10,000 years.

 

I think Canticle of Leibowitz is good starting point to think about how after The Fall, humans were so enraged they went around burning books and lynching anyone who seemed intellectual at all in vengeance for the doom their creations unleashed.

Respect knuckles for a man that knows his Science Fiction.

In theory, I would love a Warhammer 20K.  Reality is, I've wanted to break into 30K for probably 5 years and I... finally bought a Burning of Prospero box that has sat in my closet since I bought it a year ago.  

 


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1 John 4:8

 

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#50
SickSix

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I think Kinstryfe has the right of it. 20k would not play well on the table as a skirmish game. Epic might even be too narrow of scope.

@templargdt I think by the time I actually play my first heresy game, FW will be done with it lol. I have atleast assembled some of my plastic MkIII and MkIV.
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