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Let's talk terminators.


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#1
+Chaplain Matthias+

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I have some assault terminators already. 5 claws and five th/ss. That way I can mix and match as needed. They're my deep strike units for causing a ruckus on the enemys side.

Now I'm making a regular terminator squad and I'm trying to decide o a heavy weapon. These guys could also deep strike in behind enemy lines and shoot/charge. But they could also teleport to mid field and shoot with the assault cannon or cyclone missile launcher. Can terminators hold objectives? Maybe I should give them a heavy flamer to discourage charges as they camp on a mid field objective marker.

How do you guys use termies other than behind enemy lines wrecking balls?

Edited by +Chaplain Matthias+, 07 March 2018 - 06:49 AM.

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#2
Marshal Wolfhart

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I own twelve tactical Terminators and i love them to bits in 8th.

I will advise against the heavy flamer, the only situation where it's better than the assault cannon is in overwatch (lower strength, low range). Then again i mostly use the cyclone missile launcher anyways. They add to long range anti-bigthings firepower and that is what i tend to lack the most. Also you get to keep the stormbolter, which is a minor thing, but it's still there :P Teleport homers are awesome to deny a killpoint in a pinch or deny a home objective.

I'm considering converting a terminator marshal with claws to get them a reroll bubble and some more attacks, on top of the powerfists.

Competitively they're still overpriced and once they dropped in they are immobile outside the beacon.


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#3
tvih

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Ah, yes, terminators. Especially shooty ones. I hoped 8th would make them better, but it really doesn't seem to be the case at least against a whole lot of opponents. For heavy weapon it's pretty much AC or Cyclone, though the Cyclone's price does sting especially since the frag is 2D3 rather than 2D6, the latter which you might expect from regular ML's profile - what the heck, GW? The heavy flamer is a dud, which is sad. On a side note it's also a bit ridiculous they made chainfists so expensive. They really aren't worth 10 points more than a power fist.


Edited by tvih, 07 March 2018 - 03:55 PM.


#4
Ebon Hand

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I like to think of Terminators as assault units rather than shooting since a big chunk of their cost is put into the power fists.  That said, I think they are important as any list should have at least some S8 close combat in it.  However, you will need rerolls to get any mileage out of them in cc, so a Chaplain or at least a Marshal (Captain) is a good idea with them.  The drawback of the fists is that they won't work with Grimaldus' extra attack ability, but with Helbrecht you will get S10 out of them which is nice against vehicles and T5 stuff.

 

Deep strike assault is the usual deployment method as they have a below average movement value.  However, keep in mind that, even as Black Templars, a deep strike charge is a risky maneuver.  Don't be afraid to put them in your LR Crusader depending on the situation.  Sometimes Terminators in a Land Raider is much more terrifying to the enemy and will ensure that they have to deal with them quickly or face your wrath.  If you do go for the deep strike charge, have your teleport homer down in a spot to relocate them if the opponent simply moves away from them.  This can win you games, so never forget the teleport homer!

 

I think they are ok, however I have found myself using assault terminators more often. The cost of the cyclone and chainfists just hurts them so much imo.  I'd rather have a few thunderhammers with lightning claws mixed in to lower cost.  Of course, that is a personal choice since I run Grimaldus and I like the extra attack procs with my lightning claws.


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#5
SydonianDragoon404

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Tactical Terminators are like an embodiment of the space marine in terms of their identity on the table top. They have shooting power, mainly effective against foes weaker than themselves. They have the ability to take hard hitting weaponry, but at great cost. They are durable monstrosities to some, but nothing more than an annoyance to others. 

 

Back in the index days, I used tactical terminators to great effect. I brought them in every list and they always accomplished the task and tied up more of my opponents points than they costed themselves. However, as codexes have been released, more factions getting more access to cheap and powerful weapons, abilities, things that deal mortal wounds, etc, terminators of every kind have suffered. 

 

I could write a whole essay about it, but simply put I think terminators in what they're supposed to do is an impossible concept to balance correctly. You buff them a little bit, and they're too good. You nerf them a little bit, and they're sitting on a shelf. The concept of the terminator is just too... I don't know what the word for it should be... extreme? 



#6
Freman Bloodglaive

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I'm a fan of terminators, my army is basically the Ultramarines First Company, and supported by Venerable Dreadnoughts they can hang in there for a while.

 

I use Cataphractii for the assault role, their bolters and a heavy flamer are good enough for a squad that is going to deep strike pretty close to the enemy, cyclone equipped terminators and the ven dreads for the ranged role. I have a couple of squads of assault terminators but I haven't used them that often. I like to include Cataphractii Captains with thunder hammer/combi-plasma for the escorting character role. They can potentially put 16 wounds on a single model in one phase and they tank well.

 

They suffer from the usual problem Marines have though. You just don't get enough for your points. Smite sucks, bring psychic protection.


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#7
Firepower

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[quote name="Freman Bloodglaive" post="5027467" Smite sucks, bring psychic protection.[/quote]

The word you're looking for, cousin, is "zeal."
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#8
tvih

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The drawback of the fists is that they won't work with Grimaldus' extra attack ability

 

Wait, why not? I'm assuming you're talking about Unmatched Zeal. I see nothing preventing it from working with power fists?

 

-

 

I actually have more painted CF terminators than BT ones. If I get the Tartaros ones painted for BT, then it'll be about even. For using said termies, Kantor's +1A would actually probably be better for shooty termies than Helbrecht's +1S in many cases (even more so if you also brought a lieutenant), while the IF/CF chapter tactic would be nice for the actual shooty part.



#9
Ebon Hand

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The drawback of the fists is that they won't work with Grimaldus' extra attack ability

Wait, why not? I'm assuming you're talking about Unmatched Zeal. I see nothing preventing it from working with power fists?
The reason is because of the -1 to hit with fists. Sadly, this means you never really roll a 6 to trigger it unless you find a way to get +1 to hit, and I'm not aware of a way to do that without witchery.

I would be so happy to be proven wrong on this.

Edited by Ebon Hand, 08 March 2018 - 05:00 PM.

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#10
Medjugorje

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thats why I thought that it would getting our chapter tactic before the codex was released. Because in gameplay it would make sense and it was always the main Vow all BT-players took. I hope we will get a new codex anyway soon or an update and then +1 to hit in the first battleround.


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#11
tvih

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The reason is because of the -1 to hit with fists. Sadly, this means you never really roll a 6 to trigger it unless you find a way to get +1 to hit, and I'm not aware of a way to do that without witchery.

I would be so happy to be proven wrong on this.

 

Oh, right, I forgot the way 8th edition does this stuff - modifying the roll rather than the weapon skill. Damn. I guess I gotta try to remember this as well as I've been thinking of actually using Grimaldus some day - I've in fact never used him or Helbrecht on the table to date, despite having had the models for well over five years now! Shame on me.



#12
Ebon Hand

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The reason is because of the -1 to hit with fists. Sadly, this means you never really roll a 6 to trigger it unless you find a way to get +1 to hit, and I'm not aware of a way to do that without witchery.

I would be so happy to be proven wrong on this.


Oh, right, I forgot the way 8th edition does this stuff - modifying the roll rather than the weapon skill. Damn. I guess I gotta try to remember this as well as I've been thinking of actually using Grimaldus some day - I've in fact never used him or Helbrecht on the table to date, despite having had the models for well over five years now! Shame on me.

I've been using him more often lately so I double checked the rule to be sure. It's addressed in the designers notes. Silver lining, at least Chaos (and every other enemy) has to play by the same rules.
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#13
Honda

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I have  always been  a proponent  of terminators. They  never let me down, especially my assault terminators.

 

I like to take a squad of assault terminators and a squad of standard,letting them work together and support each other. Together, they  are a problem that needs to be addressed by the opponent.

 

I will field them in a Caestus, a Storm Raven, teleportation, or just  walk them on.

 

My most effective combination is  putting an  Assault squad, a Standard squad, and a Dreadnought in close proximity to each other.

 

Then something beautiful happens.


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#14
Firepower

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Hmm, I haven't any Tacticals, but there's this pile of gray plastic waiting to be born into a Cataphractii squad... happy.png


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#15
+Chaplain Matthias+

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Hmm, I haven't any Tacticals, but there's this pile of gray plastic waiting to be born into a Cataphractii squad... happy.png


What better reason than the blood and zeal challenge?

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#16
Firepower

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The thirty pounds of grey plastic already on my desk are rather discouraging reasons... :P

 

The technical difficulties that hamstrung my HQ vow are still lingering as well.  But at any rate, that's a whole different matter.

 

To be more on topic, how do Cataphractii stack up against Tacticals?  It seems like they're a bit more capable at melee, with better options, a bit less capable at shooting, with worse options, and a bit more durable.  That the sum of it?


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#17
Acebaur

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And slightly slower yes, that's a good summary


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#18
Medjugorje

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did somebody use Terminator squads often?

 

In my opionion - Assault Terminators would be good if there wouldnt be so much screening units. In Fungames they are not bad.

But every time i used normal terminators - they performed very bad.



#19
Kilamandaros

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They aren't competitive at all unfortunately, way overcosted for what they do and just melt to smite. Still a great fun unit for non competitive games. I pretty much just run TH/SS Assaults with a Termie Chaplain, drop them in turn 2-3 once screens are gone to really bring the hurt in the backline.



#20
Margulix

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Well i was thinking of hammenators vs Vanguard Vets with hammers and sheilds. And IMO the second do same and cost less. Yes they are less resilent, but you need to charge and kill on if you want to win. 


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#21
Kilamandaros

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Well i was thinking of hammenators vs Vanguard Vets with hammers and sheilds. And IMO the second do same and cost less. Yes they are less resilent, but you need to charge and kill on if you want to win. 

 

Not much less, and you're paying a huge amount for a unit that can be wiped out with a few smites. The extra wound termies get is worth paying the extra IMO.



#22
Margulix

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Well i was thinking of hammenators vs Vanguard Vets with hammers and sheilds. And IMO the second do same and cost less. Yes they are less resilent, but you need to charge and kill on if you want to win. 

 

Not much less, and you're paying a huge amount for a unit that can be wiped out with a few smites. The extra wound termies get is worth paying the extra IMO.

 

 

Well my experience says that they will die anyway if enemy survives the turn they charge. Terminators and vets alike. So it is strike or die.


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#23
Race Bannon

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Plus, Smite is situational: the OpFor has to bring a psyker and use it on the Terminators versus anything else.  AND Smite can wreck a lot more than Terminators.

 

It's not a reliable metric for a counterargument.


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"Fully dressed in the ancestral Terminator Armour of their Chapter they rise to a new level of battlefield supremacy, a level where monstrous tanks are but playthings of a child, and where Terminators, Daemons and gods stalk as equals." -Thunder and Lightning, White Dwarf 116 (UK)
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#24
Brother Adelard

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My Assault Termies failed their charge yesterday. They then died to the kind of massed firepower that only a Guard Tank Army led by a Shadowsword can muster. (But it was still hard going to shift them.) The Vanguard vets on the other side lasted out the turn, but they were a secondary target to the Terminators, they didn't last another.

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#25
Honda

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My Assault Termies failed their charge yesterday.

 

 

Did they fail it twice?

 

The "Keeper of the Chapter Tactics" wants to know.


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