Are all new recruits turned into Primaris Marines?

[drkwalker]

I dunno if this question has been asked in the forums, but with the advent of the Primaris Marines, are the original marines now being phased out in the chapters that have received the new geneseed.  Does that mean that all Space Marine Scouts that advance, are going to receive the new geneseed and become Primaris marines.  Or are the new recruits still made that will go through the old way and join Devastator, Assault then Tactical.

[slitth]

I would be surprised that old chapters would start making Primaris only.

Much of the things in 40K are wrapped in tradition and superstition.

That includes the space marine recruitment process.

[m0nolith]

To put it simply, no.

[battle captain corpus]

By the Pantheon I hope not :(

 

BCC

[Jarl Caldersson]

Didn't Devastation of Baal say that they would do half Primaris half normal. Meanwhile in Ashes of Prospero there is Blood Claws walking around. I would say no they aren't all Primaris.... Yet.

[Ishagu]

Not for the time being, but at some point they likely will be.

 

It probably varies from Chapter to Chapter. I imagine the Utras are probably only producing Primaris now.

[m_r_parker]

It’s a bit of an oddity, and one of the topics I’ve been talking about within my local group and store.

There’s an argument to say that they should, as marine vs marine the Primaris is better. Additional organs, bigger stature, better armour and weapons, why wouldn’t you create a Primaris given the choice?

The flip comes from a supporting infrastructure discussion. Take Terminator Armour - Primaris physically can’t fit in it (or any other pre-Primaris armour), and these are revered relics of the chapter whose crux bears a sliver of the Emperors armour (should the legends be believed). A chapter with a host of Terminator Armour that goes pure Primaris, well those revered relics are now never going to be used again. Similar issue with vehicles and transports, in that the Primaris “don’t fit” within them. Apparently the connections between MkX / Gravis Armour and transports don’t align or work correctly, hence why Primaris can’t use them (haven’t verified this myself, but came from the mouth of my local store manager). So what happens to all the Rhino’s / Land Raiders when Marines go Primaris? I don’t think a dongle is going to solve this issue...

 

I think there’s an easy rule of thumb that all new chapters go 100% Primaris, whereas older chapters maintain a mix. Although it’s hard to justify not creating a superior marine...

 

From a real world perspective, I think this is a headache caused by the “create models first, backround and rules come later” approach GW has. Sometimes it unintentionally backs them into a corner where either issues have to be ignored, or some creative writing is required to make sense of the situation. Things would have been a bit easier if they hadn’t put hard restrictions on Primaris using Legacy Marine equipment and vehicles, but now we’re in a square peg / round hole situation.

 

Ultimately i think this is only a problem if the “timeline” moves forward a couple of hundred years, and enough time has passed for attrition of legacy Marines to reduce their numbers to near zero. Especially for the more prominent chapters which already have recent Legacy Marines plastic kits that would be invalidated.

[Ishagu]

In the lore, Gravis armour is described as being superior to Terminator armour in terms of protection, manoeuvrability and ease of production - meaning Termie suits aren't really a concern anymore beyond their sentimental value for Chapters - Guilliman seems to have no time or consideration for the reverence for Chapter relics as was described in Dark Imperium - he comes from an age where all sorts of wonders were mass produced.

 

One of the biggest strengths of the Primaris was the modular and easy to produce yet highly advanced power armour - The mkX Tacticus.

 

The old patterns of armour and wargear will become harder to produce and maintain over time, and the gap between Primaris and Regular marines will become more evident the more battles they partake in.

[Jarl Caldersson]

Where do you get this whole "Gravis is more resilient than Terminator". The Gravis has no Crux Terminatus and thus no type of force field. It is also smaller (compared to if there was Primaris termies) and thus thinner plating.

[Ishagu]

Dark Imperium novel. In the book it states that Terminator armour only comes close to providing the levels of protection that Gavis does.

 

I agree it's different on the tabletop

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I suspect that the older Chapters wouldn't have the Geneseed quantities to go all Primaris. (Yet?) The alternative would suggest that normal Astartes Geneseed is no longer worth keeping.

 

That's heresy.

[crazyterran]

I just finished Dark Imperium, and the impression I got from Felix's internal monologue was that Terminator Armour was as protective as Gravis, but Gravis was more maneuverable and easier to make.

[Blindhamster]

I just finished Dark Imperium, and the impression I got from Felix's internal monologue was that Terminator Armour was as protective as Gravis, but Gravis was more maneuverable and easier to make.

 

Agreed, if anything from what I remember, it suggests gravis is almost as protective as terminator armour, but more advanced in just about every other way.

 

Shame they decided not to have gravis grant the bonus wound... had gravis been +1 W and +1 T and a 5++ vs terminator armours +1 T and 2+ save and 5++ I think the two would have been genuinely tough decide between in terms of defensive rules. As it is, gravis is sadly a bit of a joke. It has the negative (lower movement) of terminator armour, it is expensive points wise (gravis captain is far too expensive compared to a regular primaris captain for the difference) and really doesn't make the wearer much more resilient vs the majority of attacks they'll take.

[Jarl Caldersson]

"Their battleplate lacked the sheer thickness of Terminator armour, and the shields, though bulky, would increase their survivability in the close-quarter fighting of the coming boarding."

 

"Although slightly less resistant to fire than Terminator plate, the heavy armour worn by the Ultramarines’ existing veterans was the only thing that approached Aggressor armour’s capabilities, and Felix was far more nimble than warriors in tactical dreadnought armour."

 

So Gravis doesn't have the same armor thickness and lacks the Crux Terminatus, but is more flexible. It seems to be in between normal SM armor and Terminator armor, so kind of like relic armor. I imagine a modernized Primaris Terminator armor would be even heavier armor and probably a better more reliable force field.

 

Edit: So is Ishagu reading the same novels as us? Or do the English read differently than the Americans.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Jarl Caldersson

[Blindhamster]

so, gravis armour probably shouldnt have been m5. Should have stayed as m6 - or gravis captains should have had the aggressor rule to be able to run and still shoot with no penalties or stand still and shoot twice. tbh, I think gravis armour should have had the option to move, run and charge but not shoot as well.

 

do the above but leave toughness and wounds as 5 and 2 and I think it would be compellingly useful and distinct from terminator armour. Right now its just not that great a choice really.

[Gentlemanloser]

Also there is evidence that terminator armour can be made to fit extra large marines.

 

No reason it can't be made to fit Primaris marines.

 

I guess the explanation is Gravis being almost as goid but easier to make and maintain.

[Slave to Darkness]

"Their battleplate lacked the sheer thickness of Terminator armour, and the shields, though bulky, would increase their survivability in the close-quarter fighting of the coming boarding."

 

"Although slightly less resistant to fire than Terminator plate, the heavy armour worn by the Ultramarines’ existing veterans was the only thing that approached Aggressor armour’s capabilities, and Felix was far more nimble than warriors in tactical dreadnought armour."

 

So Gravis doesn't have the same armor thickness and lacks the Crux Terminatus, but is more flexible. It seems to be in between normal SM armor and Terminator armor, so kind of like relic armor. I imagine a modernized Primaris Terminator armor would be even heavier armor and probably a better more reliable force field.

 

Edit: So is Ishagu reading the same novels as us? Or do the English read differently than the Americans.

When we read we hear the Queens voice in our heads. We Brits read propper we do! *sips tea* :lol:

 

I have been thinking about the Deathwing, as they only wear Terminator armour what will happen if they bring Primaris into the first company? Or will GW just handwavium the fluff aside and say they can wear the ugly new armour?

Oh yea and Ravenwing, will GW make Primaris sized Bikes and Speeders? I hope we see Bikes as Vincent Blackshadows (I think thats what the bikes are called, it has been a while and Im getting old) have been in the fluff since forever. I would hate to see them go. :(

Edited March 9, 2018 by Slave to Darkness

[momerathe]

Practically speaking, Aggressors are Primaris terminators. A not entirely satisfying replacement, I know, but..

[Captain Idaho]

I sometimes wonder if anyone has seen the Primaris models when they talk about them replacing traditional models - they're huge! Really big.

 

In universe, can you imagine just how impractical a Chapter of these dudes will find life trying to fight on an Imperial planet? They'd never fit in vehicles either.

 

I mean, Terminators are fairly heavy and they can't be deployed everywhere...

 

***

 

In so seriousness, GW are waiting. They don't want to commit just yet. We don't know how long or the success rate of Primaris recruitment.

 

If it takes longer to build Primaris (remember that Marines don't recruit on a rolling basis but to get to 1000) then having them as another aspect of their Armoury works.

[Jarl Caldersson]

 

"Their battleplate lacked the sheer thickness of Terminator armour, and the shields, though bulky, would increase their survivability in the close-quarter fighting of the coming boarding."

"Although slightly less resistant to fire than Terminator plate, the heavy armour worn by the Ultramarines’ existing veterans was the only thing that approached Aggressor armour’s capabilities, and Felix was far more nimble than warriors in tactical dreadnought armour."

So Gravis doesn't have the same armor thickness and lacks the Crux Terminatus, but is more flexible. It seems to be in between normal SM armor and Terminator armor, so kind of like relic armor. I imagine a modernized Primaris Terminator armor would be even heavier armor and probably a better more reliable force field.

Edit: So is Ishagu reading the same novels as us? Or do the English read differently than the Americans.

When we read we hear the Queens voice in our heads. We Brits read propper we do! *sips tea* :lol:

I have been thinking about the Deathwing, as they only wear Terminator armour what will happen if they bring Primaris into the first company? Or will GW just handwavium the fluff aside and say they can wear the ugly new armour?

Oh yea and Ravenwing, will GW make Primaris sized Bikes and Speeders? I hope we see Bikes as Vincent Blackshadows (I think thats what the bikes are called, it has been a while and Im getting old) have been in the fluff since forever. I would hate to see them go. :(

Deathwing= all agressors

Ravenwing= all Reivers

 

Enjoy!

 

There is 4 gallons of mead upstairs in the fridge I just made. Treat yourself.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Jarl Caldersson

[Jarl Caldersson]

I sometimes wonder if anyone has seen the Primaris models when they talk about them replacing traditional models - they're huge! Really big.

In universe, can you imagine just how impractical a Chapter of these dudes will find life trying to fight on an Imperial planet? They'd never fit in vehicles either.

I mean, Terminators are fairly heavy and they can't be deployed everywhere...

***

In so seriousness, GW are waiting. They don't want to commit just yet. We don't know how long or the success rate of Primaris recruitment.

If it takes longer to build Primaris (remember that Marines don't recruit on a rolling basis but to get to 1000) then having them as another aspect of their Armoury works.

I have thought about this actually. It is said that it's have a hard time moving around ships and buildings. Yet Primaris are taller and Agressors even bulkier. So Primaris must hit their head a lot.

 

I think eventually all normal marines will be replaced sadly. They will either bring Terminator Primaris or say all old terminators are Agressors... Same with intercessors. Either we get mixed unit Primaris or your line troops are all intercessors with 1 weapon type. Only time will tell.

[Blindhamster]

I sometimes wonder if anyone has seen the Primaris models when they talk about them replacing traditional models - they're huge! Really big.

 

In universe, can you imagine just how impractical a Chapter of these dudes will find life trying to fight on an Imperial planet? They'd never fit in vehicles either.

 

I mean, Terminators are fairly heavy and they can't be deployed everywhere...

 

***

 

In so seriousness, GW are waiting. They don't want to commit just yet. We don't know how long or the success rate of Primaris recruitment.

 

If it takes longer to build Primaris (remember that Marines don't recruit on a rolling basis but to get to 1000) then having them as another aspect of their Armoury works.

 

1) you cant look at the models for a size comparison, space marines in lore are usually 7-8' tall, primaris specific heights aren't given, only that they're "larger". Fact of the matter is current marine models are not scaled correctly compared to unaugmented humans, primaris look huge because of this, but probably are not all THAT much larger.

2) we already know that building a primaris marine is anything from far quicker (1 year for genesis machines, just like the creation of a blood angel) to the same duration (the timeline given in white dwarf had the new organs slotting in and not changing the ages of standard organs).

3) wargear might be an issue for timeliness to create, but it seems to be implied that their gear is actually simpler to create because its being made as mass produced customizeable components rather than as lovingly wrought unique pieces for individual heroes (e.g. back to space marine roots from the GC)

[Robbienw]

I think a comparison between the newer taller marine models (Deathwatch and Japan Hero marines) and primaris is fair to determine their size differences.  There is still a big difference!

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah a look at the art. Just think of the weight alone! Imagine fighting in an urban environments or a damaged facility (or ship) - it's like sending in MBTs to clear a building at this point!

[Blindhamster]

the only art i can think of that shows primaris beside regular marines is this, they're bigger but the size difference isn't as large as the models would suggest.