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When NOT to alpha strike


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#1
Ninjoe42

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Alright, so we all know Grey Knights alpha strike super hard. But we've also learned that anti-deepstrike lock down is now common tactical vernacular for just about everyone.

So I wanted to discuss with people when should we NOT be deepstriking, and what should we do instead? How long to keep in reserves and for what opening?

Obviously good for grabbing objectives, but what else we got? Feels like due to the 9" rule our alpha has become particularly unreliable without FttF support.

Edited by Ninjoe42, 12 March 2018 - 03:19 PM.


#2
Corvus Fortis

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The only case we don't want to alphastrike - when enemy wants to come by himself. Common for custodes, deathguard, orks. Against gunline lists we have to always alpha-stike - overwise they will spread their screen denying even more area for TS. 



#3
Gentlemanloser

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We need to always Deep Strike turn 1.

 

We simply don't have enough bodies on the table to hold back units for another couple of turns.

 

If the enemy is coming to you, Deep Strike in your own DZ if you must (and there's no other tactically better position), but don't hold them off board.


QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#4
Ninjoe42

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We need to always Deep Strike turn 1.

We simply don't have enough bodies on the table to hold back units for another couple of turns.

If the enemy is coming to you, Deep Strike in your own DZ if you must (and there's no other tactically better position), but don't hold them off board.


Cmon now, that sounds like some overly rigid thinking! Deepstrike everything asap worked for 6th and 7th, but we're in a new meta now! Half the army can't, and the charge isn't reliable. We can't cling to that as our modus operendi if its no longer very effective!

Just looking to brainstorm here, stretch out tactical creativity a bit.

#5
Gentlemanloser

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There's no reason to keep units back.

You don't ds for the charge any more but ds to get SB into rapid fire range.

Its better to have every unit on the board.

If You want to keep a unit safe until. Chaff is cleared to cc through, your probably better with a raven.
QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#6
Ninjoe42

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How about waiting a turn for their blockers to move and free up space? Or putting terminators in an advance blocking line across their front, slowing down units like Boyz and Gaunts?

I just think from battle reports I've seen the GK full turn 1 deepstrike may be a mindset we're stuck in

#7
Corvus Fortis

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We can't cling to that as our modus operendi if its no longer very effective!

 

 Cause we have no other options. 

 

How about waiting a turn for their blockers to move and free up space?

 

 

As I said, clever opponent will not clear up space. It will spread only to deny more area. 

 

Or putting terminators in an advance blocking line across their front, slowing down units like Boyz and Gaunts?

 

 

Boyz will eat terminators alive with 4 attacks per body. So will do genestealers. And if you play against good ork\nid, they will be in your depoyment zone turn 1.  



#8
Danarc

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Termy? Are you serious? Put them in the front of the opposite army sounds like a gift. For your opponent. 

 

About not deep striking, I think that we can wait only if we have good cover and land or other units that can maximise astral aim, maybe with a GM or draigo near. waiting for one round but no more. As gentleman said, our body count is very low and the risk (especially if the opponent has other DS units) is too high. 



#9
Reclusiarch Darius

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Here is the problem with delaying. Horde armies will just daisy chain their dudes across as much space as possible. It's actually possible to deny the entire mid-field and DZ if your opponent spreads well. I've had cases where by Turn 1 second player, the first player has already spread past their DZ limit and corralled them into the third of the board they want their opponent to land in.

 

As GML mentions, storm bolters work best at 12", and you can easily land them in range Turn 1. Clearing chaff screens is important for opening up charge lanes. They will go down to massed fire. I don't even bother trying to charge Turn 1 anymore, people are very switched on about screening these days.


  • Corvus Fortis likes this
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#10
Muaddib

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Sometimes I keep a 3-men palladin squad and/or one apo for t2 or t3 DP. And it can be really usefull. But no more than one or to small units imo

#11
Gentlemanloser

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I used too.  But I'd rather have that Apoth on board to Deny, Smite/Vortex and heal (and if lucky smash some fools with his hammer).

 

I'll gate him to place him where I would have DS'd him if I'd kept him in Reserves.


QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#12
Reclusiarch Darius

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Yeah I commonly leave my Brother-Captain on table to deny enemy landing spots, then 'Gate' him into my alpha strike. My typical composition means I have 5 Teleport Strike slots and five on-table drops (it's kinda hard to get more than that without taking subpar stuff). 'Gate' basically lets you sneak another unit into your alpha.


"Already, you exalt me for my triumphs, when I ask only that you remember me for my treacheries.
Victory is nothing more than survival. It carries no weight of honour or worth beyond what we ascribe to it.
If you wish to grow wise, learn why brothers betray brothers."

Grand Master Khyron, Eighth Brotherhood

"One unbreakable shield against the coming darkness, One last blade, forged in defiance of fate,
Let them be my legacy to the galaxy I conquered. And my final gift to the species I failed."

Inscription upon the Arcus Daemonica, attributed to the Emperor of Mankind

#13
Gentlemanloser

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'Standard' Deployment map (24" no mans land).  Opponent on the edge of theirs.

 

Interceptors in Razors. 3" Disembark, 12" move.

 

Oh, 9" away without DSing or being in Reserves. ;)

 

If only we didn't need Strikes for CP...


QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#14
Danarc

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'Standard' Deployment map (24" no mans land).  Opponent on the edge of theirs.

 

Interceptors in Razors. 3" Disembark, 12" move.

 

Oh, 9" away without DSing or being in Reserves. msn-wink.gif

 

If only we didn't need Strikes for CP...

amazing. but still overpriced :D


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#15
Matt_149

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I am going to use space marine scouts to keep a clear dz. Thinking of telion, lt and 3 x basic scouts. Will cost 302pts and give 3cps will also help stop enemy units pushing our areas back.

#16
Gentlemanloser

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That only helps if you get the first turn.

 

If we go second, either the scouts get blasted off the board, or the enemy moves up to them, which still pushes our DS zones back.

 

And if we go first, the Scouts have done nothing to keep any DS zones clear, because we went first.

 

They only really help to stop your opponent placing their scouts outside their own DZ.  And if you opponent has no scouts, it's rather wasted.


  • Corvus Fortis likes this
QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#17
Capt. Mytre

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That only helps if you get the first turn.

 

If we go second, either the scouts get blasted off the board, or the enemy moves up to them, which still pushes our DS zones back.

 

And if we go first, the Scouts have done nothing to keep any DS zones clear, because we went first.

 

They only really help to stop your opponent placing their scouts outside their own DZ.  And if you opponent has no scouts, it's rather wasted.

 

I'd rather they kill the scouts (which means the enemy will not be able to DS deny by DS) than kill the equivalent amount of points of PAGK etc. Their expendable, the idea is that they guarantee to some extent that you won't be DS blocked board wide if you get second turn.


Edited by Capt. Mytre, 14 March 2018 - 01:16 PM.


#18
Corvus Fortis

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That only helps if you get the first turn.

 

If we go second, either the scouts get blasted off the board, or the enemy moves up to them, which still pushes our DS zones back.

 

And if we go first, the Scouts have done nothing to keep any DS zones clear, because we went first.

 

They only really help to stop your opponent placing their scouts outside their own DZ.  And if you opponent has no scouts, it's rather wasted.

 

I'd rather they kill the scouts (which means the enemy will not be able to DS deny by DS) than kill the equivalent amount of points of PAGK etc. Their expendable, the idea is that they guarantee to some extent that you won't be DS blocked board wide if you get second turn.

 

 

Than why not to take more equivalent amount of points of PAGK over that scouts?



#19
Helycon

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Because they are almost as easy to kill (that +1 to armour isn't a major factor), more expensive and can't deny DS.
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#20
Ninjoe42

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It feels weird that if you don't deepstrike everything turn 1 they'll scout/move to deny you all deepstrike. So our game plan is completely dependent on going first

#21
Matt_149

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It's dependent on options, you don't have to ds where the scouts were. We are just an army that excels at 12" range and so need to make sure we have the potential to do that. Ds also let's us to punish errors our opponent makes when they move or place models. Hard to explain in words I guess.

Scouts create a bubble where the enemy can't deploy, whether it's rangers or ds units. In order for your opponent to deploy units in the bubble they have to destroy your scouts. If they do this by shooting then they aren't shooting at other things and even if they destroy the scouts they haven't removed the bubble as they haven't moved into it... If they choose to assault the scouts again that's fine as they haven't got past the scouts to your own line and you can still ds in a good position or in the enemies deployment zone.

It's just about giving yourself options and forcing your opponent to make choices that may not be ideal or not fitting with his game plan. With the units I suggested you get 3 units of 5 scouts for 165 pts and then telion to pick off supporting characters, hitting on 2s with s5 weapon 2d. If he is stood next to the lieutenant then he rerolls 1's to wound as well. You also get the added bonus of 3cp. Add that to your own battalion and we have hit 9cp at 2k so you can throw down the more expensive stratagems and not worry to much.

You can then have your unit of 10 strikes dropping at 12" and chucking out 40 heavy bolter shots before splitting them next turn if they remain unmolested. Particularly if dreigo is stood next to them 👍

#22
Corvus Fortis

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Because they are almost as easy to kill (that +1 to armour isn't a major factor), more expensive and can't deny DS.

 

1) If +1 save is not a major factor, Sanctuary is taken suprisingly often;

2)I pointed that it is for the same points;

3) they can deny DS, but GK do not need it nearly as much as other armies.

 

Taking another strike is 2/4 more SB shots, 1 more attack and more possibilities to survive with single model, that can either bring another mortal wound or gate away to secure objective. Scouts are questionable addition to a GK force. 

 

So our game plan is completely dependent on going first 

 

 

This.


Edited by Corvus Fortis, 14 March 2018 - 06:23 PM.


#23
Beams

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Scouts are cheap though. And can take camo cloaks?

I'd legit think about adding three squads of scouts, since at 55 points they cost half as much as a strike squad, and help give cheap wounds and bodies on the board that allow you to deepstrike more of your grey knights...

#24
Corvus Fortis

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Conscripts\Guardsmen with Aquialla Commander will do the same way better. And Rattlings are better snipers too.



#25
Skorus

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my 2 cents on DS...

 

Played a number of games recently with an 'Ordo Malleus' list running a paladin heavy deep strike setup and using tempestus + inquisition allies to give the bodies/ds denial. 

 

First game i dropped tight together to max use of FTTF - didnt go great. Second game i tried to spread out my drops toward as many objectives as possible - went much better.

Then, last weekend i switched it up and tried adding a LR crusader and using that to position the paladins for t2 instead of deepstrike which actually worked out pretty well but mainly due to lucky card draws (area denial..etc) i plan on trying it out again next weekend - im not sold yet.

 

Ive found that even isolated 3-man paladin sqds can tank enough dmg to create a serious threat for opponent.


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