How does "Fly" work?

[Ranwulf]

I'm in a bit of contention with my friend, as he says that a model with fly has to measure his movement from his base, and if he wants to get in the top of a building, he has to make a diagonal movement to get there. However the rules state that the models treat the terrain like it isnt there, which makes me assume that when you move, you actually just ignore diagonal moves and go in a straight line, fisnishing the move in whatever level you must. 

 

Who is correct about this?

 

Ran

[Hopper21]

You treat the model with fly as if the board is as flat as a snooker table, you do not worry about vertical distances.

[Quixus]

You treat the model with fly as if the board is as flat as a snooker table, you do not worry about vertical distances.

Unfortunately it is not that simple. If you move past a terrain piece, you ignore it i.e. treat the move as if you went over flat ground, however if you want to end your movement on top of a terrain piece you have to measure the actual distance. You can find out more about this topic here.

[Eddie Orlock]

You can find out more about this topic here.

Astute readers will observe that that thread ended inconclusively in a thread lock. It's a bit deceptive to imply otherwise.

 

On that note, let us remember all our civility, decorum, and mutual respect. Also, that circular argumentation tends to lead to thread locks around here. Hatchet excavation activities will be more than frowned upon.

[Hopper21]

 

 

You treat the model with fly as if the board is as flat as a snooker table, you do not worry about vertical distances.

Unfortunately it is not that simple. If you move past a terrain piece, you ignore it i.e. treat the move as if you went over flat ground, however if you want to end your movement on top of a terrain piece you have to measure the actual distance. You can find out more about this topic here.

This actually makes sense

[Quixus]

It stops making sense, when you consider the edge cases.

[Ciler]

It stops making sense, when you consider the edge cases.

A rule does not need to "make sense" to function. Yes, some edge cases result in situations that are physically impossible, but then again so is walking through a ruined brick wall.

[Quixus]

You are right that rules do not need to make sense to not be dysfunctional, but as is very similar scenarios are handled differently although they should be handled similarly, for verisimilitude and for ease of use of the rule. What I mean is that the flying model with a 12" move and 1" base can move past an 11" high terrain piece 5" away as long as the piece is no wider than 6", but cannot move on top of the same terrain piece.

[Ciler]

I am aware of this, you can even consider a simpler and more ridiculous situation, which is taht say a unit of assault marine can go over a 13" high wall that runs across the table but cannot land on top of it.

 

But again, it's just the way the rules work. There's plenty of other exemples, for instance you can charge within 1" of a unit but somehow you can't attack it (if you didn't declare that charge)...

[Quixus]

But again, it's just the way the rules work. There's plenty of other exemples, for instance you can charge within 1" of a unit but somehow you can't attack it (if you didn't declare that charge)...

That at least is offset by their inability to fire overwatch against the charger - unless they are cheating tau.

Edited March 18, 2018 by Quixus

[Wargamer]

Okay, so two key points:

 

1) Page 177 states that models with fly can "move across models and terrain as if they were not there". Emphasis mine. Across, not into or onto. This implies you only ignore the terrain / models if you do not end your move inside or on top of them.

 

2) Page 248 states that Vehicles, Monsters and Bikes can only end their move on the ground floor, unless they have fly. This is probably the point of confusion here as it does not specify how they get up there... but it doesn't specify how infantry get up their either. It just says that Infantry (by omission) can move onto higher ground.

 

So, returning to Page 177 again, the movement rules say a model can be moved in any direction, and explicitly states you can move vertically to scale terrain.

 

Therefore, due to lack of an explicit or implicit contradiction, default movement rules apply; the move to the top of a given terrain feature (or indeed, down from a terrain feature) is only valid so long as no part of the model is moved more than the model's maximum move distance. However, you can ignore any and all models and scenery inbetween your start and end points - in other words, you do not need to go around obstacles and can simply draw a straight line between the two points.

Edited March 18, 2018 by Wargamer

[Gentlemanloser]

there's also the stepping into or designers commentary that explains movement is to, up, across then down.

[Quixus]

there's also the stepping into or designers commentary that explains movement is to, up, across then down.

this may be the intention, but it is not a ruel. Any direction means any direction. this includes diagonally through the air, i.e. the straight line between the starting point and the end point.

[Gentlemanloser]

It is the rule. ;) Unless you want to disregard everything explained in those pre 8th faqs.

 

And as per that older thread, it is straight lines. Just not the hypotenuse.

 

Vertical movement is tacked on afterthought, and like terrain needs another pass.

[McElMcNinja]

Does this also effect fliers with a minimum move who aren't ending their move on the ruin, but above the ruin?

[Wargamer]

there's also the stepping into or designers commentary that explains movement is to, up, across then down.

Is that demonstration done with Fly units or just regular infantry?

 

 

Does this also effect fliers with a minimum move who aren't ending their move on the ruin, but above the ruin?

You cannot end your move "above" terrain. You're on top of the ruin or you're inside the ruin. You can't randomly have your model floating in the air.

[Gentlemanloser]

All units i think. Just the general rule on how vertical movement works.

[Wargamer]

All units i think. Just the general rule on how vertical movement works.

Well it can't be all units because not all units can scale buildings... so again, based on the entries in the rulebook, what you're describing is how Infantry move across buildings, not how Fly units move.

[Eddie Orlock]

Well it can't be all units because not all units can scale buildings...

I'd look that over again for assumptions. I recall the various passages say that select units can end moves above the ground floor, but there is a case that they can trace a move path above the ground floor.

 

Also, not all terrain is orthogonal to the plane of the table. Suppose we had a block shaped building on top of a sloped hill?

[Wargamer]

 

Well it can't be all units because not all units can scale buildings...

I'd look that over again for assumptions. I recall the various passages say that select units can end moves above the ground floor, but there is a case that they can trace a move path above the ground floor.

 

Also, not all terrain is orthogonal to the plane of the table. Suppose we had a block shaped building on top of a sloped hill?

 

The rules say that the only units that can scale buildings are Infantry, or a unit with Fly. Everything else has to remain on the ground floor, with all the movement restrictions that entails.

[Eddie Orlock]

The rules say that the only units that can scale buildings are Infantry, or a unit with Fly. Everything else has to remain on the ground floor, with all the movement restrictions that entails.

Seems like you're citing the optional advanced rule specifically for Ruins on pg. 248 as the base case and generalising.

 

Not all structures are ruins, we could engage in the Imperium's equivalent to a parkade, designed for vehicles at all levels. So, we can't apply the ruins rules outside designated ruins. P 248 is a special case.

 

Also, compare this line, as extracted from the rule-book 'Unless they can FLY, VEHICLES, MONSTERS and BIKEs can only end their move on the ground floor of ruins' with my previous comment: ' I recall the various passages say that select units can end moves above the ground floor '. The condition is only checked at the end of the movement path.

 

The text has colour text about infantry having wall scaling kit to justify a rule to let infantry move through walls without impediment, but that's just colour text. The rule clause is the second sentence of that paragraph. Futher, permission for Infantry to do something does not specifically mean that units without that keyword are barred for that thing if they have an alternate mechanism to do so.

[Gentlemanloser]

Yup. Everyone can move up across and down terrain. Only some units can end thier move above ground floor.

 

The new armigers for example with thier 14" move might be able to climb up and over a small ruin. But wouldn't be able end there move above ground though.

 

And they wouldn't be able to move through walls either.

[Tyriks]

 

there's also the stepping into or designers commentary that explains movement is to, up, across then down.

Is that demonstration done with Fly units or just regular infantry?

 

 

Does this also effect fliers with a minimum move who aren't ending their move on the ruin, but above the ruin?

You cannot end your move "above" terrain. You're on top of the ruin or you're inside the ruin. You can't randomly have your model floating in the air.

 

I believe he was referencing things on flying bases like Stormravens, which are in fact flying above the terrain, are they not?  

[Gentlemanloser]

Nope. All distances are measured from their bases, on the ground.

 

Fliers aren't actually above anything.

[Claws and Effect]

Nope. All distances are measured from their bases, on the ground.

 

Fliers aren't actually above anything.

That's a huge logical disconnect.

 

Can actually leave the planet's atmosphere under it's own power.....but can't fly higher than a ruined building.