Unified feedback for the new FAQ

[STTAB]

Dark Talon in the Index was 180, codex was 160, FAQ is 200.

 

That's some pretty swingy points.

 

Rule of 3 solves the spam problem. 180 seems a good price point. 200 doesn't work for me.

[Wrath of Bruinen]

Dark Talon in the Index was 180, codex was 160, FAQ is 200.

 

That's some pretty swingy points.

 

Rule of 3 solves the spam problem. 180 seems a good price point. 200 doesn't work for me.

 

Totally agree. I think 160 was probably a bit cheap, 200 is too much, 180 is a good balance.

 

Part of me thinks the reason that they went to 200 is to make the choice between Dark Talons and Nephilims less of a no-brainer - Dark Talons are better, but the 10-25 point difference depending on loadout makes for an interesting decision. So I think if the Dark Talon goes down to 180 (which I think it should), the Nephilim probably needs a points reduction too (perhaps it should come in at around the 160 mark with the mega bolter?)

[SnakeChisler]

There was a big points rise in the Fire Raptor as well.

 

Unfortunately the Dark Talon got swept up partly down to people running an army full of them and being successful & flyrannts got a bump too.

 

There's changes to the Storm Raven rules to stop you carrying super heavy Dreads.

 

Aside from the points hike on the Talon everything in the FAQ makes my army lists more not less competative, a lot of DA players have been doing well with normal army style green / raven lists if people look further than the top 8 spamfest hardcore stuff

[Hantheman]

There was a big points rise in the Fire Raptor as well.

 

Unfortunately the Dark Talon got swept up partly down to people running an army full of them and being successful & flyrannts got a bump too.

 

There's changes to the Storm Raven rules to stop you carrying super heavy Dreads.

 

Aside from the points hike on the Talon everything in the FAQ makes my army lists more not less competative, a lot of DA players have been doing well with normal army style green / raven lists if people look further than the top 8 spamfest hardcore stuff

Yeah. Now my black knights can push right up in deployment and not need screening.

[Helycon]

There was a big points rise in the Fire Raptor as well.

 

Unfortunately the Dark Talon got swept up partly down to people running an army full of them and being successful & flyrannts got a bump too.

 

There's changes to the Storm Raven rules to stop you carrying super heavy Dreads.

 

Aside from the points hike on the Talon everything in the FAQ makes my army lists more not less competative, a lot of DA players have been doing well with normal army style green / raven lists if people look further than the top 8 spamfest hardcore stuff

Flyers are pretty powerful overall. The ones that got hit were the ones that could do it all: chaff clearing and heavy hitting.

 

It makes sense for the Stormraven to have limited capacity too. A Leviathan bis massive and the combination was silly. I'll try a drop pod now and see what happens :)

[G8Keeper]

I think GW are always open to feedback. I would consider the very wording of the term FAQ though, maybe we aren't asking the questions frequently enough? If someone, maybe a mod? Could email gw on behalf of a list of gamers, listed by username, with our suggestions maybe that would have more impact? I'm sure they've heard of us.

 

I'm pretty happy with all of the suggestions so far. The only thing I'd add would be to remove the rule where a LS Vengeance weapon is unusable after an overheat.

[RayJ]

It's important to remember that the points hike has a bigger impact on open and narrative play, where the datasheet limit will not be in effect. Some of these games use points instead of power level.

 

It's also important to note that not every matched play game will use the datasheet restriction (though probably most will)

 

I do agree that the big swing plus unit restriction combine to feel a bit heavy handed. But it's not the only situation that GW needs to keep in mind.

[Project XXVIII]

Dark Talon in the Index was 180, codex was 160, FAQ is 200.

That's some pretty swingy points.

Rule of 3 solves the spam problem. 180 seems a good price point. 200 doesn't work for me.

Indeed, it's kinda all over the place, but as others have said, you can thank the WAACers for this. Perhaps future CA/FAQs will bring it back to the original Index point cost.

 

There's changes to the Storm Raven rules to stop you carrying super heavy Dreads.

I missed this, where was that? I've been preaching the absurdity of Leviathans in Stormravens since I saw first mention of it. Any "Default Chassis" Dread,.. fine. Stormraven hauling something with more bulk than itself,.. no way,.. If the Emperor wanted that he'd have commissioned Mars to do up an African Swallow.

 

I'm pretty happy with all of the suggestions so far. The only thing I'd add would be to remove the rule where a LS Vengeance weapon is unusable after an overheat.

This one I guess you can chalk up due to the maneuverability of the chassis the Storm Battery is attached to, and that as far as I can tell, it's the only Plasma weapon with a default D of 2.

 

Now I would like to see the Razorback's plasma gun entry be modified to just do a mortal wound or something like the Storm Battery's overheat rule, instead of its current rule. At least I assume it's still like this,.. Spikey Bits still pops up in my feed with this article from time to time, and admittedly, I don't run this weapon config.

[Isual]

There's changes to the Storm Raven rules to stop you carrying super heavy Dreads.

I missed this, where was that? I've been preaching the absurdity of Leviathans in Stormravens since I saw first mention of it. Any "Default Chassis" Dread,.. fine. Stormraven hauling something with more bulk than itself,.. no way,.. If the Emperor wanted that he'd have commissioned Mars to do up an African Swallow.

 

 

 

It's in the IMPERIAL ARMOUR - INDEX: FORCES OF THE ADEPTUS ASTARTES - FAQ. 

 

The Stormraven can't carry Dreads with 13 Wounds or higher anymore.

[Project XXVIII]

 

There's changes to the Storm Raven rules to stop you carrying super heavy Dreads.

I missed this, where was that? I've been preaching the absurdity of Leviathans in Stormravens since I saw first mention of it. Any "Default Chassis" Dread,.. fine. Stormraven hauling something with more bulk than itself,.. no way,.. If the Emperor wanted that he'd have commissioned Mars to do up an African Swallow.

 

 

 

It's in the IMPERIAL ARMOUR - INDEX: FORCES OF THE ADEPTUS ASTARTES - FAQ. 

 

The Stormraven can't carry Dreads with 13 Wounds or higher anymore.

 

Ah yes,.. thank you kindly,.. and I must give my kudos to GW for nixing this,.. just absurd,..

 

 

IMHO Strats are rubbish for elite armies, they don't generate enough CPs and the effective Strats cost more to use. That kind of flies in the face of the logic that small forces are more nimble and flexible, and can get up to tricks outside the box, hence why they exist in military's.

I'd like to see all our multi-CP DW and RW strats drastically reduced in price, the FAQ could be, why are they rubbish?

 

I know, I know, I have to wait for Chapter Approved before we fix points etc but wow things are still not good.

I concur with you Stobz, the CP cost for DW Assault doesn't justify it's benefit, especially when compared to say,.. Speed of the Raven, or Weapons from the Dark Age.  I'm always hesitant to give a "hey, item X is overcosted, especially when compared to Y".  Because that's when Y gets nerfed,..

 

But I hear what you're saying.  Is there something about the DWA that we're perhaps missing?  I know it happens in the movment phase,.. is there some form of exploit that we're not seeing that WOULD justify it's points cost?

 

 

Note, however, that you cannot do this for

named characters – for example, Azrael is the

Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels

Chapter, and not any successor Chapter.

So named characters are out I'm afraid. This goes for all chapters.

 

See THIS needs to be FaQ'd,.. and while I can't argue against the "there's only one Azrael, Asmodai,.. etc."  I can ask GW why there is no option to replace some Spec Characters with default ones.

 

Why is there no Master on Bike?  Sammael is Ravenwing only, Successor Chapters have been noted to use companies that follow similar structure,.. but I guess these companies have no Master?

 

For every Spec Character that is available as an HQ option, there should be a default equivalent for people who either don't want to run them, cannot due to GW's ruling on their availability, or cannot due to perhaps an ally or opponent already running them.  The latter is the reason why the middle example exists, and I understand that,.. but disallowing a Master on Bike,.. really why?

 

I've even been in debates whether a Master in Terminator or Cataphractii Armour actually counts as a Master of the Deathwing, and besides one special rule unique to Belial, a Maser in TDA/CA is essentially Belial's replacement,.. no?!

 

Is the DA Codex the only book to do this?  Are there other examples?  I just think this is something that was lost in transition,..

 

Just found something interesting in the SM Codex erratta I didn't even think about before:

 

Q: How do the Flakk Missile and Hellfire Shells Stratagems interact with an Armorium Cherub? Are you able to ‘reload’ the weapon and fire again with the benefit of the Stratagem?

A: Yes.

 

If I understand this correctly you get 2 stratagem shots for 1 CP!? That is really neat in my opinion.

See this is interesting,.. as it's C:SM adding benefits to our book through the back door,.. but it does add something interesting as well,..

 

 

Q: Can successor Chapters use the Warlord Traits of their

founding Chapter?

A: No.

So where does that leave our Successor Chapters?  We cannot already use Special Characters,.. and while I assume the Vanilla Traits as well as the more flavourful traits are all printed in the C:SM,.. what if this did creep into our FaQ,.. I can see it from both sides of the fence on this possibility.

[Dark_Master]

How do all,

 

Had a brainstorm about deep striking, please see below,

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346496-post-faq-deep-strike-dangerous-close/?do=findComment&comment=5062586

 

Any comments welcome

 

DM

[Isual]

 

 

Q: Can successor Chapters use the Warlord Traits of their

founding Chapter?

A: No.

So where does that leave our Successor Chapters?  We cannot already use Special Characters,.. and while I assume the Vanilla Traits as well as the more flavourful traits are all printed in the C:SM,.. what if this did creep into our FaQ,.. I can see it from both sides of the fence on this possibility.

 

 

I always interpreted this point as "successor Chapters with their own rules", like for example the Black Templars or the Flesh Tearers, so they cant use the Imperial Fist or Blood Angel traits.

 

But rulewise DA successor chapters are from my point of view just DA with a different paintjob, or "count as"-DA if you want.

Of course you should check that with your opponent or the TO of the event you want to participate, but I never met someone with Problems regarding that.

 

PS: I mean no offense against successor chapters. Of course they are real chapters too ;).

[G8Keeper]

This one I guess you can chalk up due to the maneuverability of the chassis the Storm Battery is attached to, and that as far as I can tell, it's the only Plasma weapon with a default D of 2.

The problem is that you have to stay still with it to avoid overheats. If you move you're at -1 to hit with no rerolls unless you tag sammael along. That's d6 shots overheating on a 1 or 2,any you roll make the weapon unusable for the rest of the battle and cause 3 mortal wounds to boot.

[march10k]

You CAN just "form your own" synergy out of fluff or style of play. But you have no edge to do so. And when mixing wings is the goal of the design team, you should be rewarded for doing so, over choosing to go a different way with your army.

 

 

Fluff?  Now you're just making things up to sling mud at my argument.  And you completely ignored what I said.  It wasn't that I altered my playstyle to force in some synergy between Deathwing and Ravenwing, it's that it was already there and I took advantage of it.  Speed, T5, and dakka, but weak melee and weak saves on the one hand, and strong melee and strong saves on the other, at the expense of being slow.  Throw in dreads for AV and long range antitank.  Venerable dreads, bikes, and terminators had natural synergies, you didn't have to contort yourself into knots to eke them out.  Three different defensive strengths, three different types of offense.  The spoon-fed synergy of 7th edition was just icing on the cake.

 

I'm not going to lie... I kind of want to do that...

 

Don't we all...A friend of mine has that many terminators, and more, but none are tarts or cats.  I think he paused on the hobby about 3-4 years ago, has recently been easing back in.

[Pvnisher]

My favorite part is that the redemptor looks bigger then the leviathan but can be transported in a storm raven.

[Isual]

My favorite part is that the redemptor looks bigger then the leviathan but can be transported in a storm raven.

 

Q: Can a Stormraven Gunship transport a Relic Deredeo Dreadnought or a Relic Leviathan Dreadnought? A: No. For the purposes of determining what Dreadnoughts a Stormraven Gunship can transport, compare the Wounds characteristic of the model to that of a Redemptor Dreadnought (13): a Stormraven Gunship cannot transport a Dreadnought that has a Wounds characteristic equal to or higher than this.

 

 

Sorry I have to correct you... but it can't. 

[Company Master Holden]

 

 

There's changes to the Storm Raven rules to stop you carrying super heavy Dreads.

I missed this, where was that? I've been preaching the absurdity of Leviathans in Stormravens since I saw first mention of it. Any "Default Chassis" Dread,.. fine. Stormraven hauling something with more bulk than itself,.. no way,.. If the Emperor wanted that he'd have commissioned Mars to do up an African Swallow.

 

 

 

It's in the IMPERIAL ARMOUR - INDEX: FORCES OF THE ADEPTUS ASTARTES - FAQ. 

 

The Stormraven can't carry Dreads with 13 Wounds or higher anymore.

 

Ah yes,.. thank you kindly,.. and I must give my kudos to GW for nixing this,.. just absurd,..

 

 

IMHO Strats are rubbish for elite armies, they don't generate enough CPs and the effective Strats cost more to use. That kind of flies in the face of the logic that small forces are more nimble and flexible, and can get up to tricks outside the box, hence why they exist in military's.

I'd like to see all our multi-CP DW and RW strats drastically reduced in price, the FAQ could be, why are they rubbish?

 

I know, I know, I have to wait for Chapter Approved before we fix points etc but wow things are still not good.

I concur with you Stobz, the CP cost for DW Assault doesn't justify it's benefit, especially when compared to say,.. Speed of the Raven, or Weapons from the Dark Age.  I'm always hesitant to give a "hey, item X is overcosted, especially when compared to Y".  Because that's when Y gets nerfed,..

 

But I hear what you're saying.  Is there something about the DWA that we're perhaps missing?  I know it happens in the movment phase,.. is there some form of exploit that we're not seeing that WOULD justify it's points cost?

 

 

Note, however, that you cannot do this for

named characters – for example, Azrael is the

Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels

Chapter, and not any successor Chapter.

So named characters are out I'm afraid. This goes for all chapters.

 

See THIS needs to be FaQ'd,.. and while I can't argue against the "there's only one Azrael, Asmodai,.. etc."  I can ask GW why there is no option to replace some Spec Characters with default ones.

 

Why is there no Master on Bike?  Sammael is Ravenwing only, Successor Chapters have been noted to use companies that follow similar structure,.. but I guess these companies have no Master?

 

For every Spec Character that is available as an HQ option, there should be a default equivalent for people who either don't want to run them, cannot due to GW's ruling on their availability, or cannot due to perhaps an ally or opponent already running them.  The latter is the reason why the middle example exists, and I understand that,.. but disallowing a Master on Bike,.. really why?

 

I've even been in debates whether a Master in Terminator or Cataphractii Armour actually counts as a Master of the Deathwing, and besides one special rule unique to Belial, a Maser in TDA/CA is essentially Belial's replacement,.. no?!

 

Is the DA Codex the only book to do this?  Are there other examples?  I just think this is something that was lost in transition,..

 

Just found something interesting in the SM Codex erratta I didn't even think about before:

 

Q: How do the Flakk Missile and Hellfire Shells Stratagems interact with an Armorium Cherub? Are you able to ‘reload’ the weapon and fire again with the benefit of the Stratagem?

A: Yes.

 

If I understand this correctly you get 2 stratagem shots for 1 CP!? That is really neat in my opinion.

See this is interesting,.. as it's C:SM adding benefits to our book through the back door,.. but it does add something interesting as well,..

 

 

Q: Can successor Chapters use the Warlord Traits of their

founding Chapter?

A: No.

So where does that leave our Successor Chapters?  We cannot already use Special Characters,.. and while I assume the Vanilla Traits as well as the more flavourful traits are all printed in the C:SM,.. what if this did creep into our FaQ,.. I can see it from both sides of the fence on this possibility.

 

 

I agree with your assessment of the constant shaft that successor chapters seem to get when I think it could be a relatively easy workaround.

 

Personally, I like the way that the Adeptus Mechanicus handled the different Forge Worlds in their Codex. Ryza has Red in Cog and Claw for Fight Phase buffs, Stygies has -1 to hit outside of 12", etc. Furthermore, the Ad Mech codex lets you come up with your own Forge World and then lets you assign a Forge World trait to your successor "chapter" that fits its style of play. You can then assign your Warlord either a general Warlord trait or the Forge World specific one. Whats more, successors in the Ad Mech codex have access to both general (and powerful) relics as well as faction specific ones. I fully plan on painting my Ad Mech up as Gryphonne and using the Stygies dogma for their play style. 

 

While I know that Forge Worlds might differ more in fighting style than the Dark Angels and their successors, I feel that the Ad Mech codex is a viable framework with which to build customizeable and unique successors with. 

 

The named characters thing burns me up. I argued with a guy forever about whether or not The Sanguinor could be included in a Flesh Tearers list, but since he is technically a named character for the Blood Angels his buffs wouldn't extend to the Flesh Tearers. At least have it to where some characters can still provide buffs to successors, even if the buffs aren't as powerful for them as they would be for the faction they are originally from. Or at least provide a sheet in the new Chapter Approved that lets you build a named Chapter Master like they let you build Land Raiders for Open Play. 

[Berzul]

As a successor chapter player, almost always I just play DA with a different color scheme. Tje difference becomes one for my own amusement, little more.

 

I personally do not use named characters due to being a successor, but thats my only restriction. I use relics amd traits without regard to the Chapter status, as, in the end, I play same as DA with sine different colors.

[SnakeChisler]

The root of the successor thing goes back to Forgeworld SM chapters

 

They don't want you to get extra characters alongside chapter versions for soup buffs

[march10k]

The root of the successor thing goes back to Forgeworld SM chapters

 

They don't want you to get extra characters alongside chapter versions for soup buffs

That's some pretty keen insight!

[Berzul]

So, should we make a thread or something in which t discuss community feedback, not on the FAQ and the BEta Rules, but on our experiencie witht he codex so far this edition?

 

There are definetly things we could give GW as a community, for them to think over.

 

Ideas have been floating around with consistency for a while, such as Jink being a -1 to hit instead of a 4++ save, deathwing getting some solution to maneuverability and durability, the Nephilim being an actual air superiority fighter, more synergy between the 1st and 2nd company, a Special Rule for the DW that is more useful and less extremely situational, among other ideas.