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Sisters: Ideas, In Light of Plastic Sisters, 2019(ish)


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#1
Karack Blackstone

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Thread in progress, just to warn you all.

 

Hello all, I have tried to put this thread together and have done my best thus far to let this thread become an idea within myself before posting this discussion.

 

Sisters have their Holy Trinity, Bolter, Flamer, Melta.

 

I have some thoughts, and I hope to inspire and encourage some discussion as to how to see if new fluff when and where needed, might aid the army, on the table.

 

I realize some of these ideas might be unpopular; please, by all means, make a case as to your line of thinking, and provide both a why, and what you think could work instead, in addition to, or as the case requires, specify what changes and where you see working better.

 

So, the fluff:

 

The Emperor's Light

- Lascannon heavy weapon

 

The Emperor's Wrath

- Plasma weapons

 

Please realize I am trying to keep this simple; I do not have much in the way of fluff actually written out, however, I was thinking that if the SoB's and SoS can be two separate detachments, like the rumored Dark Eldar release coming out soon, well...

 

Please, by all means, aid me by pointing out any and all errors you see in what I have typed thus far. Yes, it's not much; however, please consider this both a brainstorming and creative writing session in progress.

 

How would you modernize your army, considering there haven't been any real changes to Sisters in quite some time?

 

What say you?



#2
Eddie Orlock

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So, the Sororita, even more so than the Astartes, are a religious order. Which means they tend to do things for theological reasons rather than practical reasons. With this in mind, a long time ago. I think in their first codex, but it might've been earlier than that, they established a 'holy trinity' of weapons classes. With few exceptions they've cleaved tightly to that doctrine ever since.

So, I think what I'd ask is what combat rolls you're trying to fulfill with the additional weapons your proposing and how they might instead be achieved with theologically compliant methods.

For the first one, lascannons, I think you're aiming to introduce long ranged anti-armour. This is definitely a hole in their armoury, but I think we could get there and still cleave to the trinity if we issued them with melta-missiles and girl-packed missile launchers. Same functionality, smoother flavour.

Now, I'm not sure what we're looking for from plasma weapons, but those are near the cutting edge of Mechanicus capability and are tempermental weapons that need lots of techpriest soothing. Sororita are an ecclesiastically aligned force and the ecclesiarchy has a strained relationship with the mechanicus. Needing lots of support to function from a faction your fractious with could be problematic.

----------------------

At a meta level, the flavour of a faction is often defined as much by what they don't have than what they do. It'd feel really strange if the Dark Eldar showed up with a Basilisk in tow, wouldn't it? Over-the-horizon artillery isn't really the kind of thing that makes sense for a webway portal based slave raid.
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#3
Beams

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Look, if you don't play sisters pleas estop trying to change the faction. They've never had lascannons, and have historically only had plasma pistols. I see no reasons to add them now. If you want plasma and Las, play space Marines.

#4
Callan

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The ecclesiarchy and the Mechanicum have a strained relationship, but the Machanicum are meeting all the Sisters' requisitions anyway, because the guns are still generally pointed in the right direction. The Sisters have some plasma weapons anyway, so why not (somewhat) expand the role?

Meanwhile, las weapons are some of the cheapest and easiest to use and maintain, and I don't think any Imperial force should be lacking in them. Missiles are a fun option too, but lascannons should probably be available.

What about a grav-chariot, to take the place of bikes?

#5
Beams

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The ecclesiarchy and the Mechanicum have a strained relationship, but the Machanicum are meeting all the Sisters' requisitions anyway, because the guns are still generally pointed in the right direction. The Sisters have some plasma weapons anyway, so why not (somewhat) expand the role?

Meanwhile, las weapons are some of the cheapest and easiest to use and maintain, and I don't think any Imperial force should be lacking in them. Missiles are a fun option too, but lascannons should probably be available.

What about a grav-chariot, to take the place of bikes?


The sisters rely less on The mechanicum then anyone else, as they use the Ordo Pronatus to help keep their gear up to par.

Also, Sisters are highly religious, and view Melta, Flamer and Bolter holy. To ad make plasma will take meltas role, which is borderline heresy, and adding in lascannons drastically change the feel of the army. Sisters have always been the "short range high powered shooting" faction, with the main struggle being getting close enough to deal enough damage, but not getting so close that you got meleed to death. Adding in lascannons to say, Retributors or Immolators makes it so you don't have to risk it anymore and can have infaction ranged support.

#6
Callan

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Look, if you don't play sisters pleas estop trying to change the faction. They've never had lascannons, and have historically only had plasma pistols. I see no reasons to add them now. If you want plasma and Las, play space Marines.


Space Marines are changing. Mechanicum are changing. The freaking Necrons are changing. The Sisters 'exist' in an evolving galaxy. The argument that Sisters of Battle should never change is weird. I want your faction - one that I will begin collecting myself, once it's in plastic - to be thematically awesome, versatile, and competitively viable. Why are you so adamant that nothing at all be added?

#7
Eddie Orlock

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Why are you so adamant that nothing at all be added?

I don't think any of us are adamant that nothing be added, but we are all strongly opinionated on what should be added. Sister's are a faction with some strong themes. Some of these themes revolve as much around what they eschew as much as what they embrace.

Over the years here we've had lots of discussions about nifty things they could add. Lascannons don't really appear in those discussions. Stuff like Avenger Mega-bolters in the casement mount of a vindicator tank sometimes does. Being a 'bolt' weapon would make it 'trinity compliant'.
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#8
Callan

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The ecclesiarchy and the Mechanicum have a strained relationship, but the Machanicum are meeting all the Sisters' requisitions anyway, because the guns are still generally pointed in the right direction. The Sisters have some plasma weapons anyway, so why not (somewhat) expand the role?
Meanwhile, las weapons are some of the cheapest and easiest to use and maintain, and I don't think any Imperial force should be lacking in them. Missiles are a fun option too, but lascannons should probably be available.
What about a grav-chariot, to take the place of bikes?


The sisters rely less on The mechanicum then anyone else, as they use the Ordo Pronatus to help keep their gear up to par.
Also, Sisters are highly religious, and view Melta, Flamer and Bolter holy. To ad make plasma will take meltas role, which is borderline heresy, and adding in lascannons drastically change the feel of the army. Sisters have always been the "short range high powered shooting" faction, with the main struggle being getting close enough to deal enough damage, but not getting so close that you got meleed to death. Adding in lascannons to say, Retributors or Immolators makes it so you don't have to risk it anymore and can have infaction ranged support.

Whereas now, if you want ranged support options that you should sensibly have, you have to include a detachment of IG or Ultramarines or whatever. In a play environment where you can have units from multiple factions on the field, restricting easily justifiable weapons to protect play style seems to be simply an encouragement to make soup.

Plasma should be an additional option, not a replacement for meltas. The fact that the Sisters use some plasma weapons already should illustrate that.

#9
Eddie Orlock

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The fact that the Sisters use some plasma weapons already should illustrate that.

Sister's use plasma weaponry because at the time of their definitive codex there was exactly one 'melta-pistol' in the entire galaxy and Commander Dante was jealously keeping it to himself. So, the initial codex included the plasma pistol as the upgraded pistol option. The model line reflected it and thus it got grandfathered for like twenty years.

I could reasonably expect the new plastic sisters line to exclude plasma pistols in favour of melta pistols, relegating them to a deprecated 'index option' for future iterations. Kind of like the 'las-plas' razorback.
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#10
Red_Shift

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@Eddie Orlock the opposite is also true - the definitive sisters codex was released over twenty years ago and in that time lots of weapons, units and even factions have been added that couldn't have been anticipated at the time. It makes sense that some of those might end up in a future sisters book although I agree lascannon are pushing it.

In general I think thematically units and equipment that fit the hereticus role to the grey knight's malleus - flamers are good at killing cultists and melta and bolters are good at killing traitor marines - so I personally don't mind sisters of silence units appearing as they make sense together - things like witch hunting hounds, van helsing crossbows but not just porting over ig or space marine units

#11
Callan

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The fact that the Sisters use some plasma weapons already should illustrate that.

Sister's use plasma weaponry because at the time of their definitive codex there was exactly one 'melta-pistol' in the entire galaxy and Commander Dante was jealously keeping it to himself. So, the initial codex included the plasma pistol as the upgraded pistol option. The model line reflected it and thus it got grandfathered for like twenty years.I could reasonably expect the new plastic sisters line to exclude plasma pistols in favour of melta pistols, relegating them to a deprecated 'index option' for future iterations. Kind of like the 'las-plas' razorback.

Maybe. They could go that direction. Personally, I think plasma and lascannons are too effective, and meltas and flamers not so much, in this edition. Limiting the Sisters absolutely to less effective weaponry doesn't seem like a selling point to me. "Yay, Sisters got updated! They suck, but they suck thematically! This way no one but us grognards will play them!" No, thank you.

#12
Karack Blackstone

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Thanks all, those posting thus far, for the perspective.

 

I do mean this thread to be a theorycrafting one, and I fully get that the already existing fluff must, MUST, be held sacred.

 

The issue is, what if any changes might need to be made? I like the melta-missile idea, that's neat. A flamer-missile with 5" 7th equivalent, S 3, AP 0, D 1, profile might help as well.

 

If my proposed ideas are not good enough, by all means, they are not good enough. I just thought it might help to at least raise the point that the fluff is living still, and should not contradict itself, due to the newer fluff somehow making the older fluff invalid.

 

Melta-missile and a flamer-missile fit the Sisters far better than a Lascannon ever will; I still needed a conversation starter, and, thus, the OP.



#13
robofish7591

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I really don't want to see plasma or lascannons in a sisters army.  I am totally open to new weapons... as long as those new weapons fit the army's theme.  Melta missiles, sure!  Napalm, why not! Some kind of high powered single shot bolt weapon, go for it!  These all fit withing the holy trinity.  Adding las or plasma just because all the other imperial forces have them would be like giving dark eldar scourges to craftworld eldar because they are both eldar... it just doesn't fit.



#14
Skaorn

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Remember that sensible isn't really a thing that the SoB really do. They are a religious order that fanatically believe in concepts similar to people who believe the earth is really flat and claim that all the scientific evidence is just lies and conspiracy. While a regular army might think in terms of things like artillery and covert strike forces, the SoB are there to shove their faith down your throat with holy guns and acts of faith. The holy trinity is fundamental part of their faith and fluff and are unlikely to change as SoB are likely to move from a close range shooting army when GW hasn't even allowed the Tau to relax from that combat style. Also, no one wants them to become the "weak little girl" version of SM by making them even more like SM.

That's not saying that the SoB can't change or their aren't ways around their limitations. For one thing, I wouldn't be surprised if GW did away with acts of faith in favor of the newer trend of increasing turn based buffs rather than having two types of stratagem systems. There is also a thread here that has a number of suggested additions to the SoB. Some of the ones I put forward there, as an example, were:

Excommunicators: a heavy melta beam rhino based siege tank/shrine that evolved to using knight scale holy trinity weapons besides just melta.

Relicuarions: an HQ that cared for order relics and could use the to channel AoF into more overt effects like maybe calling down a firestorm on a unit.

Thrones: a unit that is considered above sin and are mandated to do the an orders dirty work like assassinating those pesky radical inquisitors with a detestable sniper rifle or cowardly bombs.
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#15
Grgobart

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Wasn't imperial Plasma Weaponry inspired by/ a response to alien plasma tech, at some point?
As such the Holy Trinity seems far less arbitrary than the inclusion of plasma pistols for Superiors.

I do by far prefer the no-plasma-weapons-for-sisters approch. But I admit, an all-out plasma weapons inclusion is still better than the current pistols-only situation.


As for the inclusion of Lascannons, I'm not a huge fan. Firstly because of the aformentioned diluting of the army's character.
Secondly because it undermines the holy trinity (IF it remains fluff).

However, if you'd really want to get lascannons into a sisters codex, I can see two approches:
- Argue: Sisters already have non trinity wargear in Frag/Krak Grenades, so lascannons being somewhat as common as frag grenades...
- If the Ecclesiarchy side of things were to be extended upon, you could squeeze them in with the Fratris Militia.



As for alternatives, I do consider rocket-launchers a good start, as that isn't much fluff deviation from the Frags and Kraks already in use. Army-character-wise it still is a concern.

So my favored alternative has always been Grenade Launchers and a general shift from Frag/Krak to Incendiary/(semi-)Melta grenades. With a classical variant as "special weapon" and a "heavy weapon" variant for the Retributors. With the range of the heavier one firmly inbetween Multi-Melta and rocket launcher, I'd think it would be a nice compromise: something new for a bit more choice and flexibility, but not changing the character of the army too much.



PS: Everyone has their own opinion of change going too far (I just hope "SoB Librarians" is too far even for the very last of us! ;))

Light your way in the darkness with the pyres of burning heretics.


#16
ERJAK

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We don't necessarily need 'lascannons' but something to do the same thing a Lascannon does. I personally love the idea of a 30"-36" range, single profile version of the salvo launcher. It is melta after all.

Edited by ERJAK, 27 March 2018 - 11:05 PM.


#17
Beams

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We don't necessarily need 'lascannons' but something to do the same thing a Lascannon does. I personally love the idea of a 30"-36" range, single profile version of the salvo launcher. It is melta after all.


Isn't that what the exorcist is for?
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#18
Atrus

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Thats what the exorcist is supposed to be for. It does not. Exorcists problem is its damage output is pants. This opinion is based on in game observation as well as math hammer. Sure, it COULD do 18 damage a turn. In reality, it only does 2 or 3 even against infantry. Really, the salvo launcher is what the exorcist SHOULD be....but with d6 shots.

Edited by Atrus, 28 March 2018 - 01:17 AM.


#19
Ezr91aeL

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What most of the Las-Plas "party" miss is why the holy trinity is made by these three types of weapon. Melta and Flamers are weapons that puts on fire the enemy. And immolating with fire means to purify the enemy. Then Bolters: Bolters are the gift of the Emperor to Mankind, the weapon made to conquer the Galaxy. We could literally say that for a Sister her Boltgun is a manifestation of the power and of the will of the God-Emperor himself. Las and Plasma does not go under any of these two category. They were not designed by the Emperor himself like Bolters neither puts on fire the target. Sure, they both base their damage on the "hotness" of their shots, but their thermic energy gets dissipated too quickly to burn alive the impure heretic.
You know which kind of weapon would be perfect to the Sisterhood? Volkite. That type of weapon litterally burns the enemy from inside: we could say that it purifies only his body and not the souless gear. Obviosly there are some kind of problem in giving Volkite tecnology to Sisterhood (it's kinda lost...) but maybe some Character could have some of these weapons.


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#20
dracpanzer

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Admittedly, I struggle with ideas for new units for SoB. They just don't need much. A local SoB player just took 23rd (or 32nd?) at Adepticon with all sisters except for one Custodes jetbike. With the silliness going on there he brought BSS, Inferno Doms, Celestine, a squad of Seraphim and some HB Rets.

We have stinker units that if fixed would fill most other needs.

Personally I would like to see Celestians get wargear and ranged options, but more importantly some bonus to the AoF mechanic or even Hymns that could provide a friendly buff or enemy debuff.

Repentia, I say change their not eviscerator into a S+2 Heavy Chainsword and give them a few more attacks. Suicidal whirling dervishes.

PenEngines, give them a healthy dose of feel no pain. They are all reved up on rage drugs, surely they would ignore a fair amount of incoming fire.

Exorcist, make its rate of fire less random or allow CP to roll 2d6 for shots, give it flame rounds as an option. Each flame shot that hits does d6 hits like a heavy flamer.

New old unit.
Palatine, bring her back, give her the option to wear a jump pack.

New units.

Vindicatorsh tank with either the Demolisher cannon, Melta lance or Mega-bolter type weapon sticking out through a huge dozer blade with a church on top.

Cathedral Superheavy.

Perhaps an open topped flyer that can operate as a Seraphim transport or mobile weapon platform for the girls inside? Not so sure about this or a flyer at all.

Second troop type, unit equipped with combat shields that buff their armor save and invuln save by one (2+/5++) with either a +1S maul and pistols. A couple can upgrade their pistols like Seraphim. Give them infiltrate.

All I have right now.
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#21
Callan

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What most of the Las-Plas "party" miss is why the holy trinity is made by these three types of weapon. Melta and Flamers are weapons that puts on fire the enemy. And immolating with fire means to purify the enemy. Then Bolters: Bolters are the gift of the Emperor to Mankind, the weapon made to conquer the Galaxy. We could literally say that for a Sister her Boltgun is a manifestation of the power and of the will of the God-Emperor himself. Las and Plasma does not go under any of these two category. They were not designed by the Emperor himself like Bolters neither puts on fire the target. Sure, they both base their damage on the "hotness" of their shots, but their thermic energy gets dissipated too quickly to burn alive the impure heretic.
You know which kind of weapon would be perfect to the Sisterhood? Volkite. That type of weapon litterally burns the enemy from inside: we could say that it purifies only his body and not the souless gear. Obviosly there are some kind of problem in giving Volkite tecnology to Sisterhood (it's kinda lost...) but maybe some Character could have some of these weapons.


I understand the lore reasons why those weapons are so favored. It's just that I am also a soldier, prior service. I have a hard time believing that a serious fighting force would leave serious holes in their armory and make themselves less able to deal with significant threats, relatively cheaply and easily at that, just because the solution doesn't make the enemy scream prettily enough.
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#22
Atrus

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Youre asking to bring real world military sensibilities and effectivness vs effeciency mentalities to a sci fantasy universe where a races version of a guided missile is to strap a dude to the missile and have him throw his weight around to move it mid flight (orks and grots).

Real world mentalities need to be left at the door, especially when it comes to sisters dogma. Their zealotry and adherence to tradition would make a jihadist look like a puppy taking a nap (apologies for tasteless comparison).

As already stated, a faction is identified by what it cant do as much as what it can.
Sisters cant do long ranged. But they can do short ranged to uncomfortably butt clenching levels.
They arent an army army. Yes they do wars of faith, but theyre not guard. Theyre predominantly a defensive or accompanying force- a force that is reactive to the enemy but has capability to be proactive against the enemy in its overwhelming reaction.
A short ranged army.

You look at a modern army- in particular, look at something like a battalion. It is made up of many different parts. It has its artillery regiment. To cover its holes, the batallion will also have a seperate infantry regiment. To get the infantry around theres your transport corp; and heaps of other pieces of the puzzle.

Sisters do not have these pieces of puzzle. On fact, imperial soup is probably one of the few legitimate force compositions comparable to armed forces today.

Point is, sisters arent a Great Army. They are a puzzle piece in a larger puzzle with their own holes filled in by other imperial forces to create a Great Army.
That said, sisters are still more than capable of holding their own.

#23
ERJAK

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We don't necessarily need 'lascannons' but something to do the same thing a Lascannon does. I personally love the idea of a 30"-36" range, single profile version of the salvo launcher. It is melta after all.

Isn't that what the exorcist is for?

Maybe, but I think making a retributor carry one would look stupid.

#24
ERJAK

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The gaps in the army, not counting ministorum, are(model wise):

Heavy Infantry
Light Vehicles
Heavy Vehicles (land raider+)
Flyer
Elites just in general
Characters
Bikes (whether you want them or not)
Big Centerpiece (GW does these a lot now. Mostly 'cause they print money.)

#25
synthaside

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Every army has its strengths and weaknesses it's a key part of the flavour for the army, I think Sister's weakness is supposed to their fragility in close combat and Short to mid-range.

The holy trinity is a good concept that forces sisters players to not play like space marines  or imperial guard , That being said I would like to see more elite sisters models with a bit more durability , the Exorcist definitely needs a few more shots to bring up its reliability I'd like to see 4 d3 shots pick the highest 2 or perhaps just flat  3 d3  its unique factor is its high AP but low overall shot damage and middle strength its the only weapon attached to the platform .

If people were insistent on a new sister's anti-tank unit that's not part of the holy trinity, i could see missile launcher troops ... but it means that people arent taking the melta's for the role they EMPRAH intended 





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