Where Exactly Does Terminator Height Come From?

[Volt]

“Lysander, the five-strong squad wore Terminator armour, a mark of the esteem in which the Chapter held the First Company, and the rarest and most advanced piece of wargear in the Chapter’s armouries. Each man was closer to a walking tank than a single soldier, close to three metres tall and not much less across.” / Endeavour of Will

 

 

We've all read the books and seen the artwork. Terminators are described and depicted as lumbering monstrosities of armor, one-man armies that dwarf marine and man alike, walking tanks reaching heights of 10 feet even. Where in the warp did this depiction come from? Unless the marine himself is naturally 10 feet tall, there's absolutely no way for terminator armor to physically boost the height of the wearer by more than six inches in the boot, especially when the armor demands you slightly hunch over. If a marine is 7'6" on average, he's only making it out as 8' at most in Terminator armor, and even that's stretching it. Terminator armor certainly adds girth, but the codex illustrations, models, and common sense dictate it doesn't add much, if anything, in way of height. Yet throughout 40k material Terminators are these giant figures instead of "just a marine, but fatter". 

 

To illustrate my point-

 

 

Here we have an image of the First Legionaires from the HH books with FW's depiction of what marines look like. This is pretty much the only possible size difference you can have between a marine and terminator until you start ripping out his legs and replacing them completely with bionics or something, as there's no other way for a marine to wear terminator armor and somehow to be bigger. Hist right hand should be no large than in power armor, as it's just the gauntlet and not a robotic power fist. The legs aren't any longer than normal, and don't have disproportionate thighs which would hint at "power boots" increasing the height of the wearer like how space marine cosplay works. And if we go by the helmet itself, he's probably only 4 inches or less in height compared to the dude in power armor. Also if we examine this from an in-universe perspective, ginormous terminator armor doesn't make sense either as the Emperor planned to supplant all power armor with terminator armor if he had the time. If termiantor armor heavily encumbered you and turned you into a walking tank, that wouldn't make any sense, which is why Tartaros armor makes sense- it's just slightly wider power armor with the same mobility but at exponentially superior durability.

 

So brothers and sisters, where in god's name did this bloat in Termiantor size come from?

[Robbienw]

I would put it down to artistic license

[Kinstryfe]

Like most things GW, work backwards to the beginning. If fluff consistently says TDA is 10' tall, then it's the models that are off. Compare the old metals to even plastic PA Marines now. They're teeny. Drawings, especially like posted, tend to be based off of the models. And since people have collections spanning thirty years, GW is likely reluctant to update in one go. Tartaros and Cataphractii could have been upsized, but they already had a modeled benchmark for how big the models should be. Whenever there's a discrepancy that pops up multiple times between fluff and models, ask yourself if it could be the fault of 25+ year old modeling capability. If it could, that's likely the answer.

[Corswain]

There is a mix of old fluff saying that the armour was just bigger or that the Astartes kept getting bigger as they got older so that veterens were enormous, and of course you only give TDA to veterens so it had to be bigger.

 

Newer stuff suggests that Astartes vary in size as much as humans do so it doesn’t really make sense anymore, just one of those things.

I think the British Marines used to have a 6ft height minimum (and I’ve heard they still do), so you could just make it part of your head-canon that the Astartes do something like that. Whatever works for you.

[Marshal Rohr]

Two meters is a little over six feet, marines are over seven feet tall, which is ‘close’ to three meters if you’re being generous. Height has remained consistent, it’s the imprecise language that makes it seem inconsistent.

[Rik Lightstar]

An unarmoured marine is supposedly 7 feet tall, +/- a few inches.

 

If the boots add a few inches and the back plate of Terminator armour adds another 12 inches of height above the head, then that's looking like being 8 foot to 9 foot total. Which is near enough 3 metre.

 

Rik

[Jarl Caldersson]

I think people (even authors) forget bigger and taller are 2 separate things. Vulkan was bigger than Magnus, Magnus was taller than Vulkan. So it is up to the author I have read many books, even recently, that still get common facts wrong. Ashes of Prospero is the biggest one at this time. 3 Lascannons on a Spartan, SW Iron Priests being red, etc etc. The terminators in the more steady publications that are groomed better than most books, are drawn as similar height (except the back plate that hangs over the SM head). The idea that termies are taller is further spread by people misunderstanding that armor doesn't add height. 

 

It's not only SM and Termies that suffer this, but SoS/SoB, power armor humans and others. GW or its developers depict a human in power armor larger than other humans (to give the heroic presence) and think "oh power armor makes you taller" not realizing this is just artistic licensing. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

This is pretty much the only possible size difference you can have between a marine and terminator until you start ripping out his legs and replacing them completely with bionics...

 

 

-= Heavy breathing intensifies =-

 

Honestly though, have you considered how somebody actually fits on TDA? There's not enough room in the limb joints for someone's arms to actually hang at their sides, for example. It's just another Rule of Cool issue.

[Schlitzaf]

I mean I just figured that terminators were something like Mini-Mechas. You place a pilot inside the armor, and then they outstretch their Limbs. And then you have a limited range of motion inside the armor. But that limited range of motion enables you to move the armor.

 

In one sense the Dreadknight or those Mecha from Matrix III but without an exposed pilot.

[Ratherdashing]

This raises a question I've always had about Power Armor. Are Space Marines' hands and feet actually in the hands and feet of their armor? Or are their heels sitting on platform soles to raise them up and their hands grasping manipulators a few inches back from the hands of the armor, like Starcraft Marines and real astronauts?

 

I wonder the same thing about Tau Battlesuits, though with those I have to assume they are just in the fetal position and controlling everything with joysticks. The problem is the crotch. Their hips are so wide and there is so much space between their thighs they'd have to be totally bowlegged to fit inside. Same with their arms, especially if their head is way up in the helmet.

 

Power Armor isn't so bad, but Termie armor does have the crotch problem, though not nearly as bad. If only Marines could interface with PA and TDA we could always say their genetic modifications make them fit, but Sisters throw a wrench in that.

[Volt]

This raises a question I've always had about Power Armor. Are Space Marines' hands and feet actually in the hands and feet of their armor? Or are their heels sitting on platform soles to raise them up and their hands grasping manipulators a few inches back from the hands of the armor, like Starcraft Marines and real astronauts?

 

I wonder the same thing about Tau Battlesuits, though with those I have to assume they are just in the fetal position and controlling everything with joysticks. The problem is the crotch. Their hips are so wide and there is so much space between their thighs they'd have to be totally bowlegged to fit inside. Same with their arms, especially if their head is way up in the helmet.

 

Power Armor isn't so bad, but Termie armor does have the crotch problem, though not nearly as bad. If only Marines could interface with PA and TDA we could always say their genetic modifications make them fit, but Sisters throw a wrench in that.

Well considering that when a marine's gauntlet gets cut off, it gets cut off..

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

I'm fairly certain the FW art is drawn to look similar to the proportions of the miniatures, rather than truly accurate lore proportions and anatomy. You can tell because the power armor diagrams all look like actual power armor miniatures rather than every other depiction of Space Marines in official artwork.

[Redtoof]

I've always thought of the minis and rules of the game as more 'official' than the artwork or novels. Obviously neither is going to be 100% accurate to what the designers intend, but it always seems a backwards argument to me when people say stuff like 'space marine minis should all be primaries sized and be able to take on 100 Orks each according to the lore' or whatever. The lore is there to enhance/sell the tabletop game, not the other way around.

 

There is no right or wrong, since we are talking about a made up universe that deliberately doesn't spell everything out, but to me the stuff that happens on the table is 'official' and the stuff about giant Terminators deflecting literally everything thrown at them is myth and legend. So yeah, artistic license for me.

[Jackalwolf]

In my head canon TDA is definitely more bulky than normal power armour but maybe just about an inch or so taller.

 

As for the position, also I envision they are actually slightly crouched inside that armour, so their head is arched forward, making their profile more compact and improving their centre of gravity to just bash forwards relentlessly.

 

Put your head forth and arms backwards and suddenly you have TDA proportions. Also I feel like smashing :cuss whenever I try the pose.

 

 

Mod edit: Don't dodge the swear filter.

[Stoic Raptor]

The helmet in that Terminator illustration is not much higher than the power armored Marine.  Most of the additional height comes from much thicker soles and that mantle or whatever you care to call it that goes above the head on Indomitus pattern armor.

 

I can also imagine that extremities don't extend all the way to the end of the armor's limbs.  That would explain the "gorilla arms" appearance.  Consider a power fist - clearly the operator's fingers aren't within the fingers of the glove.  It's some kind of waldo.  And the effect of the boots is probably similar to stilts.

 

All of this contributes to the fact that special training is required even to move in Terminator armor.  It's a skill that even most Astartes do not possess.

[Volt]

The helmet in that Terminator illustration is not much higher than the power armored Marine.  Most of the additional height comes from much thicker soles and that mantle or whatever you care to call it that goes above the head on Indomitus pattern armor.

 

I can also imagine that extremities don't extend all the way to the end of the armor's limbs.  That would explain the "gorilla arms" appearance.  Consider a power fist - clearly the operator's fingers aren't within the fingers of the glove.  It's some kind of waldo.  And the effect of the boots is probably similar to stilts.

 

All of this contributes to the fact that special training is required even to move in Terminator armor.  It's a skill that even most Astartes do not possess.

That's more because of the sensors in Terminator armor and how insanely powerful the suits are. Astartes without training will walk through walls and fall off stuff as they don't know how to stop the immense momentum, or drown in the insane amount of data the suit's systems regurgitate.

[jeffersonian000]

People forget that TDA are weaponized civilian tech, reactor maintenance suits repurposed as heavy assault armor for Astartes. Regular humans wear these suits, not to mention Inquisitors.

 

SJ

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Astartes without training will walk through walls and fall off stuff as they don't know how to stop the immense momentum

 

You say that like it's a bad thing. Put the entire 8th Company in Terminator suits, it would be glorious.

[Volt]

 

Astartes without training will walk through walls and fall off stuff as they don't know how to stop the immense momentum

 

You say that like it's a bad thing. Put the entire 8th Company in Terminator suits, it would be glorious.

 

You'll need a tow truck for when the idiots make the mistake of thinking wood floorboards will support their weight and inevitably fall through a building.

[Stoic Raptor]

People forget that TDA are weaponized civilian tech, reactor maintenance suits repurposed as heavy assault armor for Astartes. Regular humans wear these suits, not to mention Inquisitors.

 

I was going to mention that before but it didn't really bear on what I was discussing.  Yes, I remember the origin of TDA (I was so excited when it was introduced in White Dwarf all those years ago).  But it's just based on those maintenance suits - it's more than just "slapping weapons on a worksuit".  I'm certain that the degree of feedback and man-amplification present in TDA is above that found in the original worksuits. Also, in order to use such equipment effectively as combat armor, it's going to require a neural interface - something that Astartes innately possess and few humans can tolerate.  It's one thing to slowly and carefully lift a spent fuel rod out of a reactor core or what have you, it's quite another to jog along, firing a weapon and interpreting battlefield data through a neural link.

 

 

You'll need a tow truck for when the idiots make the mistake of thinking wood floorboards will support their weight and inevitably fall through a building.

 

I recall reading something to that very effect in one of the Black Library novels.  It's something that can happen even to trained Terminator troopers.  I also remember the section in one of the Legacy of Caliban novels where Telemenus, the most gifted Marksman among the Dark Angels, has difficulty learning to even walk in TDA.  That's probably got a lot to do with balance and center of gravity, compounded by walking on what are effectively short stilts.

[jeffersonian000]

You are making an assumption that the civilian version does not require a neural link to function. Neural links are also civilian tech in 40k, dating back to before the Golden Age of Technology. The only thing Astartes add to TDA tech is their size and weapon hard points.

 

SJ

 

Edit: there is a reason why the sensor tech in TDA vastly exceeds similar tech in Astartes Power Armor, and that reason is because TDA tech is quite ancient while PA tech was effectively invented during the Unification Wars on Terra prior to the Grand Crusade.

[Stoic Raptor]

You are making an assumption that the civilian version does not require a neural link to function. 

 

I'm making the "assumption" that civilians don't get a black carapace and thus lack the series of sockets necessary for full man-amplification.  I'm also making the "assumptions" that not all unaugmented humans could survive the process to implant the kind of neural link you speak of, or have it work well enough to operate such a suit.  Not to mention the sensorium that allows a Marine to monitor the battlefield, the status of his squad mates and other squads, as well as other tactical and command data.

 

If operation of TDA is a skill that not all Astartes even possess, and one that requires even an augmented super-soldier some considerable amount of training to acquire, we can safely "assume" that it's more than just a matter of making a bigger suit and slapping some guns on it.  Quite similar to the differences between operating a bulldozer and a main battle tank.

[Volt]

 

You are making an assumption that the civilian version does not require a neural link to function. 

 

I'm making the "assumption" that civilians don't get a black carapace and thus lack the series of sockets necessary for full man-amplification.  I'm also making the "assumptions" that not all unaugmented humans could survive the process to implant the kind of neural link you speak of, or have it work well enough to operate such a suit.  Not to mention the sensorium that allows a Marine to monitor the battlefield, the status of his squad mates and other squads, as well as other tactical and command data.

 

If operation of TDA is a skill that not all Astartes even possess, and one that requires even an augmented super-soldier some considerable amount of training to acquire, we can safely "assume" that it's more than just a matter of making a bigger suit and slapping some guns on it.  Quite similar to the differences between operating a bulldozer and a main battle tank.

 

Also the only thing that's original and long-lasting about terminator suits is the Adamantium skeleton of the suits, similar to how Imperial ships hulls are millennia old because they can simply rebuild off a wrecked ship's spine.

 

 

The only thing terminator armor likely shares in common with the old civilian suits of the Age of Technology is the adamantium exo-skeletal support struts, otherwise the plasteel-ceramite composite armor and sensor systems are probably all put in there by the Emperor when he militarized them.

[rendingon1+]

Terminator armour especially the old indomitus suffers terribly from bad design. BL fiction (if it gets into too much detail)suffers from an attempt to justify this design.

[jeffersonian000]

The Black Carapace is just a sheet of bio-plastic that allows for more mounting points to place additional neural links, which normally require mounting on bone. Having a Black Carapace just means more neural links, it doesn’t actually do anything on its own. While current lore tells us that the Black Carapace allows the Astartes the wear his PA like a second skin, much older lore actually explain how the Black Carapace did so ... which is via mounting more neural links. An Astartes is covered in neural links, more so than most Admech Adepts.

 

Sororitas, by the way, do not use neural links. Their PA is designed better. ;)

 

SJ