Skaorn Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 I love the suggestion that it was okay to let other factions under perform, but it's a crime for Space Marines to take a back seat for a while. Fits with the suggestion I saw earlier that 'fixing' Marines was more important than other factions getting their Codices. Really not helping that entitlement thing.Any adjustment is going to be complex and have farther reaching effects... Even if it is just a point cost reduction. It'll happen. It might be too much or too little and need another adjustment elsewise... But that's how complex PvP games work. Constant balance. Patience is the requirement, not creativity. Sadly, there seems to be a lot of people who seem more interested in making their army better than actually making a better game. They will say that SM TS are bad, despite their stat line, when they just aren't point efficient as other units. Now a points drop for them or a much more difficult point increase for many cheaper units is probably in order. It seems there are those who are determined to give them special rules and/or upgrades to make their units better rather than look at the game mechanics and trying to find a more balanced solution. They also seem strangely silent on other armies that have many units that are pointless to use because other units are so much better (where is the Swooping Hawk outrage). To me this says that there are a lot of people who just want a strong army rather than working towards a balanced one. Sorry if this seems harsh but I've had my fill of entitlement in this game. I've had my 3rd ed Tau be called OP by people who made repeated tactical blunders such as parking the AV rears of vehicles in front of 20 untouched Kroot and inside 12" over four different turns before quitting in anger. I was told I deserved to have my Chaos Daemons stripped out of CSM 4th ed because I was a 3.5 twinky (I started in 3.0 and regularly agreed 3.5 was OP). I've seen players tell DE players that their SM deserved all the updates they got between 3rd and 5th because SM made more money so they deserved to regularly get new models and codexes. Then there was all those fun statements that GW would never do plastic sisters because there was no money in girl models. There has always been that vocal element who are just fine when they get what they are the ones sitting on top but come out when they aren't on top or someone suggests they're army is overpowered or is shown favoritism. I think from now on I'm just going to sit here with my subpar CSM and just enjoy the wailing and gnashing of teeth from now on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wargamer Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 Well I'm sorry, but I don't subscribe to the idea any faction deserves a sub-par Codex, and I don't think that GW should make each successive Codex stronger and stronger in a misguided attempt to push sales of that force. Each Codex should stand on its own merits, and those merits should not be "it's new". Yes, it sucks some armies get no love, but that doesn't mean other armies deserve to be shunned in some misguided form of revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mileposter Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 No faction deserves a sub-par Codex, just as no faction deserves an OP one. But sometimes you get one, because someone always does. Space Marines were one of the ones that drew the short straw this time. That sucks, it's not exactly pleasant, but it happens. It's part of making a complex PvP game. Space Marines players did not deserve to get a sub-par Codex just as they do not deserve to have everyone else put on hold to get it straightened out. Because deserve has nothing to do with it. My statement was entirely about demand and entitlement - the lack of patience that comes with the sense that there is a thing that is deserved. Space Marines shouldn't be punished, but neither is it punishment if the fix isn't immediate. It'll happen. Maybe not as soon as we would like, maybe not the way we would like, but it will. And then something else will need changed. It's the nature of the beast. And we shouldn't be treating other players any differently because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slave to Darkness Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 I remember before 8th dropped GW said this was the most balanced version EVAR and all units will be desirable... :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 Tactical marines are built to fight enemy infantry for control of objectives like any other infantry in the game. They are typically better than equivalent points of light infantry to achieve this when they need to move to multiple objectives and support the other elements of the army but they are not built to die. Guard equivalents are built to die. I see people use tactical marines as though they are meant to be anything other than a group of power armored men that hug cover, support specialists, and put boots on objectives. These players lose frequently as their marines die to enemy fire power and blades. Frankly, they'd be better off playing Death Guard if they wanted their tactical marines and chaos marines to live long outside of cover. Yeah I ran a setup I really liked with a ctac squad with combiPlas, 2x plas (or two 5 man ctac squads with combiPlas and plas) in a rhino backed up by a 5 man raptor squad, x 3. They gang up on targets. My Brutes are back with my havocs and Predator, lord with them. Terminators and sorcerer come in,on targets of opportunity, with a prince going on a suicide mission. My world eaters were just zerkers in the back, cultists in msu out front and daemon engines in the middle. Cue the fury road sound track. If I was to do loyalist marines, I'd do Crimson Fists, 2 sternguard squads, a dread, 3 full units of scouts, 2 units of devs, 1 unit of Primaris with an lt and Captain Cortez stand in ( powerfist bolt pistol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redtoof Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 It's at this time I'd like to look back to the distant past of about a year ago, to a time when if you had an underpowered unit in your army, you'd have to wait about 4 years to maybe get it fixed (maybe.) A time when you could own several thousand points from multiple armies (Orks, Tyranids, Chaos Marines for me) and have a single competitive unit between them (I have one Flying Hive Tyrant). A time when balance was so bad that some armies were literally given free stuff, and they still got wrecked by Eldar. 8th and GW's current efforts are far from perfect, and it's definitely fair to want improvements, but the game as a whole is massively more balanced than before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 I remember before 8th dropped GW said this was the most balanced version EVAR and all units will be desirable... When they said that they were talking about the ability to adjust things via CA and stuff, not that it'll be the most balanced ever right from the start without doing anything for it. ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 I remember before 8th dropped GW said this was the most balanced version EVAR and all units will be desirable... When they said that they were talking about the ability to adjust things via CA and stuff, not that it'll be the most balanced ever right from the start without doing anything for it. ^^ Sorry, but I don't think that's right. They certainly were flogging the new edition as the bestest ever at release, not 'bestest ever once we've had at least a year for the fans to playtest and break the rules for us'. Granted, it was obvious PR, and I was extremely sceptical about the claims, but they still made them, so it's fair to hold them to what they said. Some salient quotes from their Community articles. We’ve taken this chance to make some major improvements to the game, and we really think this is going to be the best edition yet. We’ve worked with the community to forge these new rules – so if you’ve sent in suggestions or gotten involved in the FAQ process on our Warhammer 40,000 Facebook page over the past year, then you have helped shape this new edition – so thanks to all of you for your input! This is the game you know, but improved, faster, bloodier and better. The rules team have gone to great lengths to make sure that every unit, weapon, vehicle and character has its role – everything will be useful, and every miniature will have a place in your army. Why should I not just stick with current Warhammer 40,000? This is the version of Warhammer 40,000 you’ve been asking for. We’ve listened to your feedback, and we really believe that this is the best Warhammer 40,000 has ever been. Yes, you read that right, you will want to have Chaos Space Marines in Chaos Space Marine armies! Overall Space Marines are a very versatile army and will play more closely to their lore without the free points and character bombs. Yet we still have a Chaos Cultist meta, and the iconic Tactical Marine remains overshadowed by essentially the entire Marine Codex, let alone other dexes. Sources: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/breaking-news/ https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/the-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000-your-questions-answeredgw-homepage-post-2/ https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/07/faction-focus-chaos-space-marines/ https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/29/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-space-marines/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 But the changes are part of this editions design. It's one of the things that are supposed to make this edition so great compared to the ones before. Of course those were included in their statement. Also whoever believed that it'll be 100% balanced is pretty naive anyway. Not much, if anything at all, in history of such complex games has ever achieved 100% balance. However I don't think picking apart GWs statements about the edition is part of this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheesh Mode Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 They just don't DO anything to make them worthwhile. Can you take them and still win? Of course. But your definitely handi-capping yourself even when just compared to your other 2 options in the marine dex. Why are you using Tactical Marines to fulfill a Scouts role? Tactical marines are mid-range medium infantry built to attack objectives in the opponents zone while supported by specialists. You use them to win combats against light infantry and distract enemy forces by tying up key units in assault. Unlike scouts, they can actually move and still have some protection even if they are not in cover. Tactical marines are built to fight enemy infantry for control of objectives like any other infantry in the game. They are typically better than equivalent points of light infantry to achieve this when they need to move to multiple objectives and support the other elements of the army but they are not built to die. Guard equivalents are built to die. I see people use tactical marines as though they are meant to be anything other than a group of power armored men that hug cover, support specialists, and put boots on objectives. These players lose frequently as their marines die to enemy fire power and blades. Frankly, they'd be better off playing Death Guard if they wanted their tactical marines and chaos marines to live long outside of cover. Yeah I ran a setup I really liked with a ctac squad with combiPlas, 2x plas (or two 5 man ctac squads with combiPlas and plas) in a rhino backed up by a 5 man raptor squad, x 3. They gang up on targets. My Brutes are back with my havocs and Predator, lord with them. Terminators and sorcerer come in,on targets of opportunity, with a prince going on a suicide mission. My world eaters were just zerkers in the back, cultists in msu out front and daemon engines in the middle. Cue the fury road sound track. If I was to do loyalist marines, I'd do Crimson Fists, 2 sternguard squads, a dread, 3 full units of scouts, 2 units of devs, 1 unit of Primaris with an lt and Captain Cortez stand in ( powerfist bolt pistol) It sounds like a standard generalist force that relies on careful planning and adapts to the scenario to shine. Like any power armor list. I like it. I run Death Guard the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodd1888 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 Tacticals can't deal with light infantry, ie. Hordes, effectively. Hordes get locked in assault and maybe lose a handful of trooops on their way into assault. Once in assault they've neutered whatever they're attached to, and are more difficult to shift then "medium" infantry. Interesting Solution: Tacticals can fire into assault with Bolters? That'd be a nice effect, especially if it's only towards keyword horde or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheesh Mode Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 Tacticals can't deal with light infantry, ie. Hordes, effectively. Hordes get locked in assault and maybe lose a handful of trooops on their way into assault. Once in assault they've neutered whatever they're attached to, and are more difficult to shift then "medium" infantry. A horde of cultists assaulting five tactical marines has moved away from my dreadnoughts, vanguard veterans, terminators, and characters. That's a win. You don't need to remove your opponent's material to win a game of 40k, you just need to score more points than them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 Yeah, any real attention Tacticals get is a win for the Marine player. The thing is that there's rarely a reason to give them that much attention. Either you ignore them or you look a bit more intensely at them with your anti-infantry stuff for a phase and move on. ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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