Space Marine Vehicles

[MeltaRange]

Are there people out there going heavy on vehicles? (for competitive play) I'm just so disenchanted with SM vehicles, and now mainly play infantry only in almost all cases.  When I sit down and compare a Predator for example, to say a Ravager, it makes the Predator look like utter garbage.  Repulsors, Land Raiders, and Stormravens are just way too expensive for how easy they can die and put too many eggs in one basket.

 

Just curious to get some other people's thoughts on SM Vehicles and how you use them.  I don't want to give up on them!

[Panzer]

Be happy that you at least have the Predator. As T'au player I look at my Hammerhead and wish I had Predators instead lol

[Ishagu]

I took two Repulsors and a Sicaran Venator to a pretty competitive tournament a few days ago.

I only lost one game (because of poor luck with objectives) and the Repulsors left a serious impression on people's mind, as did the Venator.

[Spiritual Liege]

I took two Repulsors and a Sicaran Venator to a pretty competitive tournament a few days ago.

I only lost one game (because of poor luck with objectives) and the Repulsors left a serious impression on people's mind, as did the Venator.

Yes. Repulsors pack a real amount of firepower. Something like 24 S5 AP-1 shots, 5d6 S4 and 3 S4 AP-1 is utter death to infantry.

[MeltaRange]

Well, the Hammerhead does have a few advantages over a Pred.  Admittedly pure fire-power isn't one of them, but I think there are definitely pros and cons there.  FLY and +2 Wounds is a pretty decent advantage, as well as the fact that FOR SOME REASON Space Marine vehicles don't get Chapter Tactics, even though their pilots are Marines from the Chapter.  Every other faction gets it; it's infuriating to me.  Dal'yth, Sa'cea, and T'au tenets give a decent advantage to the Hammerhead.

 

I'd be interesting to know what you faced in your tourney, Ishagu.  While I think Repulsors are awesome, I still think they die far too easy for their points.  I have 1 and have borrowed 1 on a few occasions to try running 2.  Just too much of the army tied up in those models.  It makes it so I can't really "spam" vehicles to present additional threats for the opponent's anti-tank since they cost too much.  It's hard to hide them effectively unless you have solid terrain and are willing to give up your short ranged anti-infantry.  All in all, they are super cool and look pretty good on paper (and actually are pretty great against some armies) but every time I take them I see them get vaporized by Neutron Lasers, Crimson Hunters, Dark Lances, and whatnot and I just think - "man I'd rather have had 350 points of Infantry instead"

[Deafbok]

Funny, I've gone the exact opposite way in terms of my thinking - I used to run a drop assault army, all in pods, so post 8th it's now all infantry and very, very squishy. I'm trying to work towards a more mobile, balanced force that provides tougher targets that are less likely to melt to weight of all weapon fire (face it, using an AT weapon to kill a marine isn't worthless given comparitive costs, but they're not guaranteed to hurt vehicles)

[Deathwalker]

The problem with vehicles is, they invite heavy S, multiple wound attacks, which eliminates their wound or T advantage. Yet for Armour, they are no better than a marine. The fact you save before determining damage really hurts vehicles as well.

[MeltaRange]

The problem with vehicles is, they invite heavy S, multiple wound attacks, which eliminates their wound or T advantage. Yet for Armour, they are no better than a marine. The fact you save before determining damage really hurts vehicles as well.

 

Exactly.  So much of the stuff shooting at your T7 3+ save is going to be wounding on 3s, -3AP, 3 or d6 dmg.  So in reality, those weapons are wounding the "supposedly tough" SM vehicles exactly the same as they would wound a   Venom or Ghost Ark.  Except those vehicles have other advantages like a -1 to hit or a 5++ invuln or Quantum Shielding.  

 

Which all adds up to the fact that in practice, SM vehicles are actually LESS survivable than Xenos, but pay a premium for their nearly worthless T value.  Our Vehicles should really be T8 or T9 base.

[MeltaRange]

Funny, I've gone the exact opposite way in terms of my thinking - I used to run a drop assault army, all in pods, so post 8th it's now all infantry and very, very squishy. I'm trying to work towards a more mobile, balanced force that provides tougher targets that are less likely to melt to weight of all weapon fire (face it, using an AT weapon to kill a marine isn't worthless given comparitive costs, but they're not guaranteed to hurt vehicles)

 

I'm interested to hear what you're running.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I still run a mechanized list. Usually three or four Rhinos and Razorbacks per list, supported by multiple Dreadnoughts, a Hunter, and the occasional LRR to boot. I've got a winning record in 8th Edition so far (4-3-1) with my Iron Hands, with only Death Guard really causing me issues so far. The trick for me has been maximizing my Chapter Trait by taking Venerable Dreadnoughts (thus getting two FNP6+s per wound suffered) and a Techmarine or two to conduct repairs. My last game one of my Dreads was down to 1 wound at one point but it ended the game at full health thanks to repair rolls.

 

Also consider that in general, the meta is pushing towards a very heavy infantry style of game; most folks bring one, maybe two sources of serious anti tank for handling the occasional vehicle or monster. If you flood the field with armor, you guarantee that your opponent can't kill enough quickly enough to stop you from dictating the flow of the battle.

[Dracos]

What do you call “flooding”? I suspect it’s nothing Primaris related lol.

[MeltaRange]

Flooding the board with armor is not a bad idea per se, it's just exceptionally hard to do at the 2000 point level due to the cost of our vehicles.  A LRR is ~375pts.  Repulsor ~340, Stormraven ~350.  I regularly face armies that can easily destroy that in one turn.  Plus, you open yourself up to much worse firepower/assault (Fire Dragons from the Webway, Captain Slamginious) because the cost of your vehicles is prohibiting you from buying units to properly screen the vehicles from those threats.

 

That being said, I've thought about this a bit more last night and have come up with a few setups that I'm going to try again.

 

3 Vindis + Repulsor + Stormraven carrying a Venerable Dread

3 Vindis + Contemptor + Repulsor + Deredeo

2 Stormhawks + Repulsor + Rhino filled with something nasty

[Iron Father Ferrum]

My last game against Tau, a Maelstrom game I won 22 VPs to 11 - I put three Ven Dreads, a Hunter, a Rhino, and two Razorbacks on the table.

[MeltaRange]

Frankly, Iron Hands Venerable Dreads are kinda in another category than the all-inclusive "SM Vehicles".  They are probably the BEST version of the SM Vehicle, because they have Chapter Tactics, don't degrade, 2+ WS/BS, are actually tough enough to survive because of their multiple saves, and also come with other bonuses like being able to drop a Wisdom of the Ancients or be good in combat.  Also, anecdotes are hard because you could be a really great player, and your opponent could be new, or have a non-effective list or something.  

 

So I didn't mean that paragraph to be "dismissive" of your argument, so apologies for that if that's how you read it.  Of course, there are good SM vehicles, and even the mediocre/bad ones have a purpose and they can serve that purpose.  But at the end of the day, for a competitive take all comers list, everytime I think about including a vehicle, I end up thinking "well, it'll get shot off the table in 1 turn, might as well just take more infantry".

[Iron Father Ferrum]

No offense taken, and I for sure agree that IH Ven Dreads are just about top of the pile (as they should be!). My response to your last sentence though is: *a* vehicle will got shot off the table turn one. *Five* vehicles will not.

[Dracos]

 .... and this is why competitive list see so much spam. I don't mean that as a negative either. It's just the nature of the game in that particular meta due to the rule mechanics. Both are completely competitively viable ... arguments for which is best aside. Sadly the more narrative army list, even at equal point levels, just don't work as well in that environment.

[zero88]

Has someone been able to fully compare Land Raiders vs Repulsors? That is, combat experience with both, not just mathhammer. The 2+ save of the Raider really helps considering most Heavy AT weapons are -3 AP, but require a bubble wrap to keep them from getting tied up in combat. Whereas not only does a Repulsor field keep almost any deep striking unit from assaulting, but it has that magical fly keyword so it's not a big deal if they make it in.

[Panzer]

I'll share your observation.

The Sv2+ definitely helps to survive, however the Repulsor wins at damage output.

Considering that both cost so much and are part of Marine armies who are more elite than horde anyway you won't have the means to bubble wrap them unless you go soup (but then you have even more competition) so I rate the FLY keyword extremely highly. It's not very likely for an opponent to make a charge from reserves but if he manages it, the Landraider is screwed until you help it out with other units ... as seen on stream during the first Custodes vs TSons match. As transport he benefits a lot more from FLY than other tanks as well since you can just move over other units and are more likely to end up within charge range of opponent units.

However the FLY keyword also has drawbacks. Mostly that anti-air weaponry hits better which takes away from its durability compared to the Landraider even more.

 

So Landraider has the durability going for it, Repulsor has the damage output and utility. Plus the Repulsor is cheaper. Since proper anti-tank shouldn't really have too many problems getting rid of a Landraider despite the better durability and both are too expensive to actually spam I'd say it's not even a fair comparison. The Repulsor is definitely better. Still very problematic to include in lists due the high cost of everything Primaris tho.

[RandomMarine]

No offense taken, and I for sure agree that IH Ven Dreads are just about top of the pile (as they should be!). My response to your last sentence though is: *a* vehicle will got shot off the table turn one. *Five* vehicles will not.

Red scorpions using IH chapter tactics with Culln the risen + ven dreads is 3 fnp rolls per wound try killing those when escorted by a tech biker. It's a dirty combo that I us for my IH successors

[MeltaRange]

I'm giving this list a shot this weekend.  Just seems so small.  I'm hoping to be able to deal with things that scare the Repulsor quickly, then use it and the Captain to hold the line while my backline fires away.

 

Iron Hands Battalion + Spearhead (7 CP)

 

Terminator Captain - Thunder Hammer; Shield Eternal; Warlord: Iron Resolve OR Sword of the Imperium haven't decided

Lt - Jump Pack; MC Bolter; Power Axe

Terminator Librarian - Force Staff; Storm Shield

 

5 Intercessors - Bolt Rifle

5 Tactical Marines - Missile Launcher

5 Tactical Marines - Missile Launcher

 

Venerable Dreadnought - Assault Cannon; Dreadnought CCW + Storm Bolter

Venerable Dreadnought - Twin Lascannon; Missile Launcher

 

3 Inceptors - Assault Bolters

 

Predator - Twin Lascannon; 2x Lascannon

8 Hellblasters - Reg Plasma 

Thunderfire Cannon

 

Repulsor - Twin Las; Max Dakka

[Tamiel]

Rhinos are still the unsung heroes of the Codex SM armies. Easily the most underrated unit in the whole army, if not the whole game.

[Ebon Hand]

Don't write Predators off because of Ravagers. Ravagers have always been deadly, but they compensate for the fragility of Dark Eldar and are somewhat fragile themselves. They are amazing but pining for xenos weapons is futile and heresy.

 

Predators are good, don't let anyone tell you otherwise, even yourself. It's easy to try them a few games, get bad luck and go "aw they suck" but stick with it. They are solid, especially if you bring 3 because Kill shot is one of our best strategems. Your opponent will almost certainly try to kill them or tie them up quickly.

 

Contemptors are also good. Their high movement value really helps them shine.