Change to purifiers and banner in FAQ

[Danarc]

I’m guessing purifiers are now 2+ws 2+bs 2w 2A 2+save. Now THAT work for me!

This would be amazing. But not really doable. 

Primaris get 2W and 2A but still WS and BS 3+. their cost is 18 points. Plus force weapon (8) and storm bolter (2) Theyr cost would be 28 (as purifiers now). Give them 2 points more for psychic ability and +1 L and here we are. No WS and BS 2+.

But probably I would be ok, not happy, but ok with this. 

[Capt. Mytre]

 

I’m guessing purifiers are now 2+ws 2+bs 2w 2A 2+save. Now THAT work for me!

This would be amazing. But not really doable. 

Primaris get 2W and 2A but still WS and BS 3+. their cost is 18 points. Plus force weapon (8) and storm bolter (2) Theyr cost would be 28 (as purifiers now). Give them 2 points more for psychic ability and +1 L and here we are. No WS and BS 2+.

But probably I would be ok, not happy, but ok with this. 

 

 

You cannot compare two armies like that. We don't have cheap access to re-roll hits, or any re-rolls to wounds. They have a banner that grants them a possible shot just before dying etc. They can have various chapter traits and benefit from warlord trait auras such as -1 AP.

 

You need to balance individual units in accordance with the army they are apart of, not with other armies. You then balance the army as a whole verse other armies.

If you don't do it in this order, you end up with the GK codex, where multiple units fill the same role and have little to no flavour.

 

That said, I'd just leave it at 2w 2A 2+ save.

[Gentlemanloser]

Sadly every storm bolter is balanced to be the same.

 

Regardless of which unit uses it.

 

Its worth 2 points as a weapon. On a bs3+ unit or bs5+.

 

Same as a Bolter, which doesn't take into account special rules like special issue ammo.

 

All bolters are bolters. Regardless.

[Panzer]

I’m guessing purifiers are now 2+ws 2+bs 2w 2A 2+save. Now THAT work for me!

 

That sounds more like wishlisting than anything else lol

[Danarc]

 

 

I’m guessing purifiers are now 2+ws 2+bs 2w 2A 2+save. Now THAT work for me!

This would be amazing. But not really doable. 

Primaris get 2W and 2A but still WS and BS 3+. their cost is 18 points. Plus force weapon (8) and storm bolter (2) Theyr cost would be 28 (as purifiers now). Give them 2 points more for psychic ability and +1 L and here we are. No WS and BS 2+.

But probably I would be ok, not happy, but ok with this. 

 

 

You cannot compare two armies like that. We don't have cheap access to re-roll hits, or any re-rolls to wounds. They have a banner that grants them a possible shot just before dying etc. They can have various chapter traits and benefit from warlord trait auras such as -1 AP.

 

You need to balance individual units in accordance with the army they are apart of, not with other armies. You then balance the army as a whole verse other armies.

If you don't do it in this order, you end up with the GK codex, where multiple units fill the same role and have little to no flavour.

 

That said, I'd just leave it at 2w 2A 2+ save.

 

I completely disagree. Our Stormraven costs exactly as SM one and the point increase of SM weapons involved also our weapons.  

If the game is balanced it is among armies not among units of the same army.

But we already discussed about that.

[Waking Dreamer]

If Purifiers were buffed that much, the only thing GK Terminators would have over them would be: 

- 5++

- Deep Strike

- Object Secured

 

Though, if Purifiers did have a points change ALONG with stat changes (plus 6" smite D2)., its also possible for GKT at having a points change since in the feedback many said Purifiers and GKT were on similar levels of ineffectiveness.

 

With that in mind and supposedly Paladins at 50pts and Purifiers at 28pts, how do people see GKT in possible point changes since they're basically the middle-ground infantry between Purifiers and Paladins.

 

Paldadins/Paragon - WS2+ W3 A3 Ld9 Sv2+ - 50pts

 

GK Terminators      - WS3+ W2 A2 Ld8 Sv2+ - ??pts

 

Purifiers                 - WS?  W?  A? Ld9 Sv3+ - 28pts

[Gentlemanloser]

Still useless.

 

Points changes will change nothing.

 

There needs to be distint seperate roles backed by rules.

 

Edit.

 

Just looking at wounds GKT would need to be approx 33 points.

 

But they are still a worse unit. So need to be cheaper still.

 

30 points? 2 more than purifiers? Who would ever use Purifiers?

[Beams]

GKT are tankier than purifiers. I'd pay 5 pts for an additional wound and a 2+/5++ instead of a 3+/7++

 

And then purifiers get a better smite 6" range, 2 wounds instead of whatever range 1 wound, and perhaps 2-3 attacks.

 

And that's without considering whatever buffs they may granny to Terminator armor

[Capt. Mytre]

 

 

 

I’m guessing purifiers are now 2+ws 2+bs 2w 2A 2+save. Now THAT work for me!

This would be amazing. But not really doable. 

Primaris get 2W and 2A but still WS and BS 3+. their cost is 18 points. Plus force weapon (8) and storm bolter (2) Theyr cost would be 28 (as purifiers now). Give them 2 points more for psychic ability and +1 L and here we are. No WS and BS 2+.

But probably I would be ok, not happy, but ok with this. 

 

 

You cannot compare two armies like that. We don't have cheap access to re-roll hits, or any re-rolls to wounds. They have a banner that grants them a possible shot just before dying etc. They can have various chapter traits and benefit from warlord trait auras such as -1 AP.

 

You need to balance individual units in accordance with the army they are apart of, not with other armies. You then balance the army as a whole verse other armies.

If you don't do it in this order, you end up with the GK codex, where multiple units fill the same role and have little to no flavour.

 

That said, I'd just leave it at 2w 2A 2+ save.

 

I completely disagree. Our Stormraven costs exactly as SM one and the point increase of SM weapons involved also our weapons.  

If the game is balanced it is among armies not among units of the same army.

But we already discussed about that.

 

 

I'm not saying that's what GW do, it's what they should do - and if you want to suggest balance changes, you should avoid making the same mistake they do of doing direct comparisons without factoring in the army itself.

 

It's obvious to anyone with even the slightest inkling of game balance, that you shouldn't have two armies that use the same weapon use the same points, because there are far more factors in play than just the weapon. Hell, you shouldn't use the same points costs for weapons across different units, because you get stupid stuff like intentionally nerfing one unit, but also nerfing another unit that you didn't intend to, and then another unit in an entirely different army (AKA the razorback nerf).

[Gentlemanloser]

GKT are tankier than purifiers. I'd pay 5 pts for an additional wound and a 2+/5++ instead of a 3+/7++

 

And then purifiers get a better smite 6" range, 2 wounds instead of whatever range 1 wound, and perhaps 2-3 attacks.

 

And that's without considering whatever buffs they may granny to Terminator armor

Then at 33 ppm GKT remain strickly inferior to Paladin.

[Waking Dreamer]

 

GKT are tankier than purifiers. I'd pay 5 pts for an additional wound and a 2+/5++ instead of a 3+/7++

And then purifiers get a better smite 6" range, 2 wounds instead of whatever range 1 wound, and perhaps 2-3 attacks.

And that's without considering whatever buffs they may granny to Terminator armor

Then at 33 ppm GKT remain strickly inferior to Paladin.

Except when you inherently get ObSec. as well as points investment into the battalion detachment for those 3 CPs.

[Beams]

And paladins cost 50(!!) Pts a model, a d are super weak to lascannon Spam. I can't find a use for paladins, ever.

[Zamtro]

And paladins cost 50(!!) Pts a model, a d are super weak to lascannon Spam. I can't find a use for paladins, ever.

I feel like... Everything is weak to lascannon spam. But lascannons aren't cheap and Pallys still get a 5++ and a chance to survive a hit anyway

[STTAB]

If you are not running GMNDK and go heavy on Paladins then you would be thinking sanctuary for the 4++ and a warding stave to bring that to a 3++ in CC.

[Beams]

 

 

And paladins cost 50(!!) Pts a model, a d are super weak to lascannon Spam. I can't find a use for paladins, ever.

I feel like... Everything is weak to lascannon spam. But lascannons aren't cheap and Pallys still get a 5++ and a chance to survive a hit anyway

Only big stuff. Lascannon Spam is weak to PAGK, and any kind of "cheaper" unit. If your wasting your shots on a 1 wound model, the lascannon isn't going to be doing good.

[Danarc]

If you are not running GMNDK and go heavy on Paladins then you would be thinking sanctuary for the 4++ and a warding stave to bring that to a 3++ in CC.

Yes but going heavy on Paladines make it harder fill a Batallion and finds antitank.

[techsoldaten]

 

 

And paladins cost 50(!!) Pts a model, a d are super weak to lascannon Spam. I can't find a use for paladins, ever.

I feel like... Everything is weak to lascannon spam. But lascannons aren't cheap and Pallys still get a 5++ and a chance to survive a hit anyway

Only big stuff. Lascannon Spam is weak to PAGK, and any kind of "cheaper" unit. If your wasting your shots on a 1 wound model, the lascannon isn't going to be doing good.

 

 

Unless it's already killed all the big stuff.

 

In one of my Black Legion lists, I run 25 lascannons. Often, (with their rerolls from Abaddon) they wipe out all tanks / transports / flyers first turn before moving onto cc threats.

 

For a lascannon to be effective against Terminators, it has to one shot each model. A Terminator is a lot less scary then a Paladin, you do still roll 1s and 2s for damage 33% of the time. I've had Paladins tank multiple 10 man CSM squads in a game without taking a wound.