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AoD Rulebook Question - Knights as LoW?


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#1
Apostle of the 30th Host

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Just a quick question I am hoping some of you will be able to answer for me...

 

In short: Can Space Marine Legions now take an Imperial Knight as a LoW choice?

 

I have only just had the chance to take a look at the new AoD rulebook, with the most current rules for 30k. In the 'Preparing for Battle' section - which details how to build a 30k army - there is a small box entitled 'Panoply of War' (p. 131). In this box, there is a list of potential LoWs that can be used in 30k. And the previous page, which lists all the LoW option (i.e. The Primarch, Engine of Destruction, War Machine Squadron etc.) refer to options being allowed from the 'Panoply of War' list.

 

From my reading of this, it seems pretty clear that ANY 30k army can use any of the models listed there as their LoW choice. Thus, meaning Knights are an option.

 

Just checking to make sure I am not being silly and reading it wrong though. Anyone else spot this?

 

 


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#2
Dhar'Neth

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I belive they can under the War Machine Squadron rules.

War Machine Squadron:1-2 Super-heavy vehicles from thesame Army List entry, each with a Hull points value of 8 or lower, and each chosen from the same Army List as that used to form the Primary Detachment or from the Panoply of War list found opposite. These vehicles must be deployed within a 6" coherency if on the table at the start of the game or, if placed in Reserve, will be rolled for as a single unit and must enter the table within 6" of a single eligible location. However, after their deployment, these war engines are considered to be separate units in the game.

Horus Heresy: Age of Darkness pg. 130
Games Workshop

#3
Hesh Kadesh

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The Space Marine Legion rules found in 'The Horus Heresy - Legiones Astartes: Age of Darkness Legions' rulebook detail which Lords of War are available to the Legiones Astartes.

The Age of Darkness rulebook does not take precedence.

Resources;

Heresy Era Lords of War; use this to find out the complete collection of available Lords of War for Battles in the Age of Darkness.


#4
Raktra

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According to the rulebook and the FAQ released at the weekender, yes, Knights are legal. Aside from the Atropos, that one’s specified out.

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#5
Gorgoff

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Until there is an official released FAQ and not just some picture of a sheet of paper in the internet, Knights are only allowed as allies. That means you have to take at least two of them.
And of course the Rulebook takes precedence because it is the newest one.
So no pinning for your Thudd Guns, units DO score out of buildings, no solo Knights etc. etc.

Having said that I strongly suggest to ignore the rules for the time being and take the "FAQ" as facts. It is just stupid to forbit one Knight and the other stuff in the (in my very humble opinion) fake* FAQ makes perfectly sense. We use it in our group. ;)

* I know at least one player who wrote FW regarding said FAQ and they told him, that they never heared of it and that it is a hoax. Notheless: use it.

Edited by Gorgoff, 16 April 2018 - 05:59 AM.

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#6
Hesh Kadesh

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There has never been a case when the general rulebook has overridden the codex, unless there is a later FAQ to state otherwise.

Resources;

Heresy Era Lords of War; use this to find out the complete collection of available Lords of War for Battles in the Age of Darkness.


#7
Gorgoff

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There has never been a case when the general rulebook has overridden the codex, unless there is a later FAQ to state otherwise.

Since we don't have codices in 30k that doesn't matter. ;)
Besides the way I remember it, these FAQ always had to make clear that the codex overrides the core rules and not the other way round. In fact when 7th dropped the mechanics regarding 6th Edition in the first black books where overwritten by the core book until they made a new red book.
So no, the red book is outdated in many places not only in regards to Knights but also regarding score mechanics or how the additional FoC work for example. There are plenty of other rules which had changed and we should ignore all of that, because of one part, which forbids the use of one Knight?
That is not plausible, Hesh.

Like I said: until a FaQ arrives I would ignore the Knight rule and use ALL the other rules who has changed accordingly.

Edited by Gorgoff, 16 April 2018 - 07:46 AM.

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#8
Hesh Kadesh

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No rules were overwritten in the 7e transition. It is perfectly plausible. The Red Books are the specific exception to the general rule of the book.

Quad Mortars had a -1 to pinning tests they caused, but no longer caused pinning. The quad mortars now didn't have an opportunity to cause pinning tests.

Obfusticating the matter and trying to say 'lets wait for an FAQ' doesn't make your point any more correct than 'The Horus Heresy - Legiones Astartes: Age of Darkness Legions' rulebook, purchaseable from the Forge World Website takes precedence over that of the Age of darkness rules.

Using your same thought proces that certain legacy rules arw ignored, the entire Army List cannot be used as it's pure legacy.

Talk with your opponent, or tournament organiser/rules judge, but de rigeur, Army List books contain specific rules which trump those written in the rulebook.

Resources;

Heresy Era Lords of War; use this to find out the complete collection of available Lords of War for Battles in the Age of Darkness.


#9
Dhar'Neth

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The Space Marine Legion rules found in 'The Horus Heresy - Legiones Astartes: Age of Darkness Legions' rulebook detail which Lords of War are available to the Legiones Astartes.

The Age of Darkness rulebook does not take precedence.

Yes, you're right of course.

However... I just checked my Legiones Astartes: Age of Darkness Army List (ibook version pg. 8), and here's an excerpt: "War Machine Detachment: 1-2 Super-heavy vehicles of the same unit type, each with a Hull Points value of 8 or less, and each chosen either from the specific army list for the Primary Detachment, the Questoris Knights army list found in the Crusade Imperialis army list, or the optional Super-heavy list found on here. This detachment must be deployed within a 6" coherency if on the table at the start of the game or, if placed in Reserve, will be rolled for as a single unit and must enter the table within 6" of a single eligible location. However, after their deployment, these war engines are considered to be separate units in the game."



#10
Hesh Kadesh

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Yet another question solved by reading the rulebook :)

 

Who'd've thunk?


Resources;

Heresy Era Lords of War; use this to find out the complete collection of available Lords of War for Battles in the Age of Darkness.


#11
Dhar'Neth

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Glad I could help :)



#12
dicebod

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Yet another question solved by reading the rulebook smile.png

 

Who'd've thunk?

 

I hate to say it but you're wrong.

 

On Page 130 of the Age of Darkness rulebook (which is both the official rulebook for Heresy and the most recent rules issued for Heresy), under the War Machine Squadron section, it reads: "1-2 Super Heavy vehicles from the same Army List entry, each with a hull point value of 8 or lower, and each chosen from the same Army List as that used to form the Primary Detachment or from the Panoply of War list found on the opposite."  Questoris knights are specifically *not* in the Legiones Astartes Crusade Army List or in the Panoply of war list.

 

This is significant because at the top of that page, it reads: "In standard games of The Horus Heresy: Age of Darkness, any of the following options counts as a single Lords of War choice unless specifically stated otherwise by either the mission or Force Organization chart in use."  No exceptions for armies.

 

This leads me to believe that Knights were specifically excluded.  Moreover, the argument that the army list should override the core rulebook doesn't make any sense in this context because 1) unlike 40k, 30k got its main rulebook (this one) after most of the army lists are already published and 2) there are other rules explicitly changed in this book from the older ones (see Graviton Imploder, Combi-Volkite/Grenade).  Like it or not, these are the most-up-to-date rules, and until we have an official FAQ to the otherwise, I wouldn't cherry-pick from them.


Edited by dicebod, 18 April 2018 - 08:21 PM.

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#13
Dhar'Neth

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Yet another question solved by reading the rulebook :)
 
Who'd've thunk?

 
I hate to say it but you're wrong.
 
On Page 130 of the Age of Darkness rulebook (which is both the official rulebook for Heresy and the most recent rules issued for Heresy), under the War Machine Squadron section, it reads: "1-2 Super Heavy vehicles from the same Army List entry, each with a hull point value of 8 or lower, and each chosen from the same Army List as that used to form the Primary Detachment or from the Panoply of War list found on the opposite."  Questoris knights are specifically *not* in the Legiones Astartes Crusade Army List or in the Panoply of war list.
 
This is significant because at the top of that page, it reads: "In standard games of The Horus Heresy: Age of Darkness, any of the following options counts as a single Lords of War choice unless specifically stated otherwise by either the mission or Force Organization chart in use."  No exceptions for armies.
 
This leads me to believe that Knights were specifically excluded.  Moreover, the argument that the army list should override the core rulebook doesn't make any sense in this context because 1) unlike 40k, 30k got its main rulebook (this one) after most of the army lists are already published and 2) there are other rules explicitly changed in this book from the older ones (see Graviton Imploder, Combi-Volkite/Grenade).  Like it or not, these are the most-up-to-date rules, and until we have an official FAQ to the otherwise, I wouldn't cherry-pick from them.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but if I understand it right, under your reasoning Legiones Astartes cannot take a Titan LoW, right?

#14
Caillum

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Yes, there is some contradiction between the Rulebook and the Legions Army List (and the 1-pager test FAQ doing the rounds at the Weekender did seem to support their inclusion), but until it’s official, I think we’ll leave it there folks.

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