Is the creation of Space Marines inherently immoral?

[Boldthreat]

Legacy of Dorn shines some light on the recruiting practices of the Crimson Fists (Pre Snagrod):

 

Galleas, A Crimson Fist Veteran Sgt of the Crusade Company recalls being around 11 or 12.  Once a generation, the Festival of the Burning Fist is held, where the warring Clans of Blackwater put aside their quarrels and gather at a great mountain where they offer up their sons as tribute.  It doesnt dive into how many Clans there are... or how many Tribunes partake in the trial.  What he does say is the trials were terrible, and Tribunes die every day of the festival, or are maimed and disqualified from continuing.  The final trial is the slaying of a Barb Dragon... which of Galleas' festival, he was the only one to accomplish the task, all others dying and or failing in the task.

 

The harshness of the trials does not bother me.  I get it, its grim and ruthless and meant to weed out the weak.  I just do not see how that is remotely tenable for a 1000 man Chapter that faces a constant state of war in a very punishing galaxy.  Using this particular account, the planet of Blackwater produces 1 aspirant a generation, or roughly 30 years!  And that is not accounting for the actual process that turns the boy into a Space Marine, which is wrought with its own perils.  40k is not my standard of realistic possibilities, and I do not want to lose the grim nature of the setting... but wouldn't it be better to state that of 1000 tribunes... 100 survive the trials and then a further 25 - 75 percent of that number fail implementation and further training?  At least enough to create a quarter of the Scout Company... which some of them wont make it past there due to their nature.  

 

I don't care that its harsh and deadly and unforgiving... I care that it just appears a Chapter that takes significant casualties is dead as a fighting force for... a long freaking time, and we aren't even talking about geneseed replacement yet... which is even more of a scarce commodity.  Put me in the camp that wishes the Space Marines were more in line with the table top than what Black Library puts out.  (That isn't a dig at the quality of Black Library, I love the stories they put out... I just think the whole Movie Marines stuff and what a single squad of Space Marines accomplish in some novels is over the line... but that's completely my own opinion and would be head canon).  

 

Edit, aside from my gripe... I loved Legacy of Dorn!  I want to read more about Galleas and the Crimson Fists!

[Laughingman]

The 30K environment indicated that creation of Space marines was once a Relatively rapid (if wasteful) process. From Intake to Legionary likely happened in under a couple of years... Depending on the Legion this could be done with minimal loss of life (dark angels, Ultramarines, etc) or with wasteful abandon (Imperial Fist, World Eaters, etc). I suspect the Imperial fist successors never really got rid of the old mindset when transitioning to a post legion imperium....  

[NovemberIX]

I'll touch on the actual subject in a moment, but...

 

You need more than a handful of planets in order to preserve the species...

 

...This has got me asking from what basis is this statement made? I mean humanity as a whole is on this one planet currently, but even in game, humanity expanded from one planet to untold numbers. To say that a "handful" of planets planets couldn't "preserve" a species is rather specious. We're talking billions if not trillions of humans still existing even if ever other Imperial world and institution were wiped out, heck lets say that even the undiscovered pockets of humanity are wiped away too, that's still a lot of humans around to reproduce, and without the Mechanicum to say "research and technical advancement is bad" who's to say humanity wouldn't ascend again?

 

To make a point on the actual subject, our current morality on Child Soldiers is that it's bad, it's bad because we're taking away the freedom of choice from a child who wouldn't understand the nature of the commitment they are making. Still though, if you want someone to be the best at a thing, you start them off young, to the detriment of everything else you have them focus on the one thing. We allow kids to do that in our current day in age with sports, racing, or even the arts, so the question becomes, is there morality in letting a child make a choice without the full extent of an adults consideration?

 

It seems to me that the process of becoming a space marine greatly accelerates the cognitive abilities of the aspirant, so while their first experiences will be through the lens of childhood, soon enough they know what they've gotten themselves into, and choose to take that mantle of responsibility willingly. The threat of death and maiming may not matter to future generations the same way it doesn't matter to young racers today, because it's what they chose for themselves.

 

Maybe the ends justify the means, maybe the horror of it never will.

[Aothaine]

But they're not innocent boy's apart from maybe the Ultramarine's, every other chapters recruits even the Sallies are top of the food chain psycho warriors that beat all of their other aspirants to the job of becoming a Space Marine Scout in trials by combat.

 

They knew what they were doing.

 

This. I'm pretty sure that most space marine chapters have their aspirants willinging submit to the trials. 

[RandomMarine]

Well form in-universe comments we know for a fact that the rate of attrition in process in the IH chapter had be getting progressively worse for a long time. I vaguely remember it being mentioned in universe that currently the process is much less refined and the quality of the geneseed lower. A often over looked bit of cawls arrival is that he restored the current degraded geneseed back to original specs with only the intentional mutations (SW canines,RG skin and eyes, salamander skin)present Imperial fists can spit acid again

[Azekai]

This entire thread seems predicated on the idea that young space marine inductees are unable to consent to being made into space marines and this is a Bad Thing.

Human lives are expended constantly to power the Astronomcan, feed the Emperor, die on the battlefield, ect. I don't think hardly anyone in those situations gets asked if they would like to participate. When thousands die thanks to sloppy accounting and a common sentence for crime is lobotomized cyber-slavery, I don't think consent is really on the Imperium's ethical radar.

The Imperium as a vast collective tyranny that cares nothing for human dignity or individuals. If someone dislikes the duties they have been assigned, the powers that be don't care. Serve or get out of the way, because otherwise humanity is going to die screaming.

tl;dr most of the things done by the Imperium of Man are incredibly cruel and *not* remotely ethical by modern standards.

 

[DogWelder]

This entire thread seems predicated on the idea that young space marine inductees are unable to consent to being made into space marines and this is a Bad Thing.

 

Human lives are expended constantly to power the Astronomcan, feed the Emperor, die on the battlefield, ect. I don't think hardly anyone in those situations gets asked if they would like to participate. When thousands die thanks to sloppy accounting and a common sentence for crime is lobotomized cyber-slavery, I don't think consent is really on the Imperium's ethical radar.

 

The Imperium as a vast collective tyranny that cares nothing for human dignity or individuals. If someone dislikes the duties they have been assigned, the powers that be don't care. Serve or get out of the way, because otherwise humanity is going to die screaming.

 

tl;dr most of the things done by the Imperium of Man are incredibly cruel and *not* remotely ethical by modern standards.

 

 

 

I think that's more of an answer to "Is the Imperium's immorality justified?"

 

Here I was more arguing that the creation is not necessarily immoral in itself (whether it be justified or not). While I do accept that most recruiting of Space Marines is of course immoral, it doesn't necessarily have to be as shown by the recruiting methods of the Ultramarines and some of their successors.

 

I see it more as the creation of Spartan soldiers from HALO. The 1st, 2nd and 3rd Generation of Spartans were kidnapped and forced into the role of killing machines. However the 4th Generation consisted of willing and consenting volunteers from military academies/schools. 

 

The same seems to happen with the Ultramarines. Plus some of them even come from the orphans of noble houses on Macragge who are given a chance at life.

 

In fact the 3rd Captain of the Ultramarines (Mikael Fabian) had his family lose a feud with another noble family and was about to be assassinated with the rest of his relatives when Chaplain Cassius inducted him into the Chapter's trials as a means of political refuge. [detailed in the novel Cassius] 

 

So my argument is that it can be done ethically.