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Tactical Reserves

Beta Rules Tactical Reserves Deep Strike

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#1
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TACTICAL RESERVES:

 

The beta version of Tactical Reserves updates an existing matched play rule presented in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. The ability to arrive on the battlefield mid-game has always been powerful, enabling units that can do so to arrive where they will be most effective whilst granting them immunity from attacks until they are on the battlefield. The original wording restricts the number of units that can do so to half your army, but the intent was ‘half of your army’s strength’, so we have further clarified this to be half the power of your army. Even so, armies that use a heavy proportion of ‘reinforcement units’ are dominating many gaming tables, often decimating their foes on the first turn before their opponent has had a chance to move any of their own models. We therefore felt it necessary to reign in the power of these abilities, and so during the first battle round, such units can only be set up within their own deployment zone. This means that to be most efficient, such units may want to wait until the second battle round. Note that we have not applied this restriction to Genestealer Cults or abilities and Stratagems employed by armies such as Raven Guard – the opportunity to deploy units en masse after deployment is a central part of the design of these armies.

 

TACTICAL RESERVES:

 

Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, and the combined Power Ratings of all the units you set up on the battlefield during Deployment (including those that are embarked within Transports that are set up on the battlefield) must be at least half of your army’s total Power Level, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere. Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere). This does not apply to a Genestealer Cults unit that is being set up according to the Cult Ambush ability, or to units that are set up after the first battle round has begun, but before the first turn begins (such as those set up via the Forward Operatives or Strike From the Shadows Stratagems). Finally, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round in a matched play game counts as having been destroyed.

 

The beta DS rule has ruined my all my lists. My almost finished competitive list no longer works the way it was designed and just got 120 points more expensive too :s

GW need to be gradual and small with their rules and points changes.

With regards to the DS beta rule, I suggest we bash our heads together here and then produce a draft for an email to GW with the results.


Edited by Dam13n, 19 April 2018 - 08:32 AM.
Adjusted Title and added Tags, also added the suggested rule and GW's justification in quotes.

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#2
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My thoughts

Don't like the rule. A DS heavy army can be easily screened out so they have nowhere to drop/nowhere worth dropping in turn 2.

Applying a nerf to turn 1 DS would have been smarter such as a -1 to hit in shooting and combat. Since your dude are a bit dizzy from teleporting/entering the atmosphere.

Or an initially longer range DS that decreases per turn. E.g. turn 1 10", turn 2 8", turn 3 6"

Thoughts

#3
domsto

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i don't like the new Deepstrike rule either.

I mean i play Guard so it doesn't effect me that much but i understand that it handicaps most of the CC focused Armys. As you said it is easy to screen against Alphastrike

and after all a 9" charge isn't that safe and often is very risky.

 

I think the new Rule that half your Army pointswise have to stand on the Board prevent some of the extremer cases


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#4
Stormxlr

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Does it affect Gate of Infiinity?



#5
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And teleport shunt, apparently.

#6
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I'm sure I posted on this earlier.........



#7
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The first version of this was removed from the news section so I reposted in the beta rules section.

#8
Gentlemanloser

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Again this is trying to fix something that isn't a problem.

 

And breaking so much by doing so.

 

Take poor Assassins now.  They can't ride in any transport, and have no mobility options other than Deep Strike.  So basically you're left with the choice of waiting until Turn 2 or 3, hoping your opponent hasn't spread out to deny you any space to DS into.  Or footslog your Assassins turn 1.

 

It also makes units with native Deep Strike worth less (or those with DS upgrades), yet no point changes have been made to reflect this.

 

Is a Personal Teleporter for a GK NDK still worth 10 points, when you can no longer DS outside of your DZ turn 1?

 

DS has become somewhat of a trap anyway, with wise opponents using cheap chaff screens and units that can deploy before the game starts outside of your DZ to limit DS space.  Like Scouts or units with Strike from the Shadows.


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QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#9
Quixus

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Applying a nerf to turn 1 DS would have been smarter such as a -1 to hit in shooting and combat. Since your dude are a bit dizzy from teleporting/entering the atmosphere.

How is it less disorienting to deep strike a turn later?
 

Or an initially longer range DS that decreases per turn. E.g. turn 1 10", turn 2 8", turn 3 6"

This again would improve shooty deep strikers over choppy ones. I don't think that is a good idea.

#10
Deathwalker

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Applying a nerf to turn 1 DS would have been smarter such as a -1 to hit in shooting and combat. Since your dude are a bit dizzy from teleporting/entering the atmosphere.

How is it less disorienting to deep strike a turn later?

[/quote]

​Fluff wise?

Better on the ground intel, rules wise, not at all.

 

Or an initially longer range DS that decreases per turn. E.g. turn 1 10", turn 2 8", turn 3 6"

This again would improve shooty deep strikers over choppy ones. I don't think that is a good idea.

 

Most choppy DS's can shoot well, it's just that the shooty should be considered shock damage to the choppy, rather than the shooty being the most reliable part of DS. When I drop 5 vets with SB and PS's, I want to shoot the chaff to clear the path for the next wave, then charge the hard target with my armour breaking CC, and that's exactly how elite armies should work.



#11
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Just sent this to my local GW store and a similar email to an online retailer I shop with. I feel there is no point making any more purchases as the state of the game is in such flux that you can't plan ahead with firm assumptions as to how the mechanics of the game will function.

Sending a message to your plastic crack dealer may be more effective than the FAQ and rules feedback email. I bet they received thousands of emails today alone.

"Dear XXX

There is £140 in cash on my kitchen table that I was going to spend with you today.

I am putting all purchases on hold untill the GW rule team shows that they are capable of applying the correct philosophy for aceiving balance.

Although some issues were well addressed in the Big FAQ I believe that points changes and big rules changes should be attempted in small steps as big swings can wreck existing lists and works in progress.

In particular the Deep Strike Beta rule means that I am uncertain as to whether my current project is viable.

I am also uncertain over begining another project as it may be unviable before completion if there are other big rule changes.

As planning, buying, building and painting is a long and gradual process, changes to the game should take this into account and be made in small increments to allow army builders to adapt more easily.

Kindest regards

XXX"

#12
Corvus Fortis

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As I mentioned before, I see two problems with new DS:

 

1. Now it is PL-based too.

2. Screen chaff has time to spread.

 

While this can balance shooty-DS, melee one is completely destroyed now. Gunlines are kings now. Before FAQ I could come out of reserves t1 with my GK Strike Squad and shoot a dark reaper squad before it annihilates my stormraven. Now, I will be able to shoot only a 2+, 5++ FNP, -1 to-hit dark reaper squad, because it will get all cast on eldar turn 1. Difference is obvious. (Not the best example, because Reapers are always in serpents, which are screened by infiltrated rangers.)


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#13
Capt. Mytre

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Alright, how to fix this mess. GW literally implemented a system to fix this kind of stuff during the designing of 8th edition, but they are failing to use it (just like keywords...). All the Deepstriking units have their own special rules, they don't reference a global special rule like editions past. If a unit is problematic, adjust its specific special rule to fix that units specific issue, don't go making sweeping changes to every unit that has a similar rule. That's lazy and results in each unit feeling the exact same.

 

Things that can be adjusted in each DS special rule are massive - minimum distance, hit modifiers for/against, cannot shoot/cannot charge/can still advance D3" instead of shooting etc/must reveal DS location at the start of your opponents turn.

 

On the stream, they noted that it was "shooting alpha strike" as the issue. Why they nerfed deepstrike overall makes zero sense.

 

The problematic units weren't most CC deepstrikers, they already face:

 

1. Screening

2. Battlefield DS denial

3. A ~27% chance to actually make the charge

4. A failed charge results in being left out in the open, you were incredibly vulnerable.

 

The problematic ones were shooting units that could turn up almost anywhere on the battlefield and be within range. They didn't care about the 9" minimum distance, they didn't care about screening, they always get to shoot, they can position themselves in cover/LoS blocking terrain and still be in range of the target they want.

 

Blows my mind that GW are this incapable. Why the hell are we suggesting how to fix a game rule that's so obviously broken? Imagine a MOBA where there's one hero that specialises around movement in the game. The designers then do a global rework of movement, but don't look at this specific hero, and need to be told that if the changes stays, it ruins that hero.


Edited by Capt. Mytre, 17 April 2018 - 11:44 AM.

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#14
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I would have thought that having a maximum of 50% of your dudes in reserves by PL, instead of units would have been enough to curb the more extreme lists.

That alone would have been a good move and if it was still a problem by the next FAQ they could expand on this.

#15
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If this restriction will stick, having Drop Pods exempt from it (for no points increase) would be a good move.

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#16
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If this restriction will stick, having Drop Pods exempt from it (for no points increase) would be a good move.

While it would be something, I think you going to have problems justifying why the drop pod can land crash outside of your deployment zone and jump packs cannot land there, but only in the first turn.



#17
Leif Bearclaw

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If this restriction will stick, having Drop Pods exempt from it (for no points increase) would be a good move.

While it would be something, I think you going to have problems justifying why the drop pod can land crash outside of your deployment zone and jump packs cannot land there, but only in the first turn.

 

No more than why Genestealers can appear outside your deployment zone, but only when they're rolling with Cult (does the HIve Mind make the Stealers stupider?) and other sneaky things like Lictors and Assassins can't.

 

Or why the enemy gunline lets your intact force get 24" away before opening fire. Or how small arms can hurt tanks now (old rant, I know, but that one still bugs the everloving hell out of me).

 

There's plenty of 'hard to justify' quirks in 40k. They're all arbitrary restrictions made, in theory, to make the game a more pleasant playing experience. One more isn't going to hurt. Whether they actually help, on the other hand, is a different argument...



#18
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So whilst I was eating my breakfast I had a thought on the latest Beta deep strike conundrum.

 

Personally I like the idea they are trying to do how ever I understand the implications on some armies. 

 

How about:

 

Only half of your army Points / Power Level can be placed in reserves. Whether these are due to a units datasheet deep strike style rules or via a stratagem. 

 

Turn 1:

Only a maximum of 2 Units with the datasheet deep strike style rules can be deployed outside of your deployment zone. Any others may be deployed within your deployments zone

 

Any units which have been put in reserve via a stratagem can be deployed outside of your deployment zone.

 

Turn 2/3:

Any units still in reserve be it form datasheet deep strike style rules or via a stratagem can be deployed outside of your deployment zone.

 

Turn 4 onwards:

All units in reserve are lost


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#19
Capt. Mytre

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So whilst I was eating my breakfast I had a thought on the latest Beta deep strike conundrum.

 

Personally I like the idea they are trying to do how ever I understand the implications on some armies. 

 

How about:

 

Only half of your army Points / Power Level can be placed in reserves. Whether these are due to a units datasheet deep strike style rules or via a stratagem. 

 

Turn 1:

Only a maximum of 2 Units with the datasheet deep strike style rules can be deployed outside of your deployment zone. Any others may be deployed within your deployments zone

 

Any units which have been put in reserve via a stratagem can be deployed outside of your deployment zone.

 

Turn 2/3:

Any units still in reserve be it form datasheet deep strike style rules or via a stratagem can be deployed outside of your deployment zone.

 

Turn 4 onwards:

All units in reserve are lost

 

 

Still doesn't allow combo drops, such as Paladins/Apoth/GM or Draigo/Banner.

 

Doesn't stop a squad of scion from blowing something up.

 

The answer to this is adjusting individual unit rules, not sweeping nerfs that include units/armies that are already in a poor position.


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#20
Waking Dreamer

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They're beta rules still, so people can email GW all it's shortcomings and unintentional side effects.
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#21
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I understand that games being practically over before a player who goes second gets to move a model is crap. Of course there are loads of choices and tactics that can be made to insulate yourself from that.

Here and on other threads I've seen a ton of suggestions. Any of which would be better than the beta rule.

The problem is the heavy handed and unsubtle rules changes that kill existing builds, works in progress and even whole factions.

If your existing army or work in progress no longer works with the beta rule, you have no way of knowing if it's worth continuing down this path. Either;

You carry on as you were and hope your units end up being the exception or the final rule will be different.

Start a whole new project, scrapping/salvaging what you can from the existing one, if you have the time and money to do so.

Stop working and wait and see which way the wind is blowing.

Then with future big rules shake up you find yourself in the same place in the future.

Once again, making an army takes a lot of time and money. We need to know that changes won't be so sweeping in order to have enough certainty to plan ahead.
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#22
Soder

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Someone on FB suggested -1 to hit for all first turn deep strike drops. Just thought I’d mention it here as well. Seems a little more balanced compared to the beta rule. Except I guess if you’re facing an army that can stack on even more -1 to hit modifiers..

#23
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Another thread in the official rules got locked out when this started to be discussed. Curious as to what still works and what doesn't.

Psychic movement things like da jump and gate of infinity?

Custodes castellan mark occurs before turn 1?

Any others that you are unsure about?

#24
Dam13n

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Currently it covers all abilities that state the unit "arrives" on the battlefield (aside from the listed exceptions).

 

So, if any of those abilities state "arrive" or "arrives" then they will be affected (must be placed within the player's own deployment zone if arriving on turn 1).

 

If, however, they fail to specify "arrive" (instead stating deploy or place etc.), then such abilities will be unaffected by this rule (at least in this beta form).

 

At least in intent it looks to be designed to limit the effectiveness of units that are arriving from reserve on turn 1, rather than adversely affecting infiltrating units or re-deploying abilities that aren't as reliably effective when it comes to alpha-striking as the various deep striking abilities can be.


Edited by Dam13n, 18 April 2018 - 07:13 PM.
clarifying.


#25
Helycon

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I still feel that to arrive on the battlefield, it means you weren't there in the first place. Displacement doesn't mean that, and in my eyes, shunt and Gate should be usable T1.





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