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Tactical Reserves

Beta Rules Tactical Reserves Deep Strike

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#26
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Arrives on turn 1. So the Castellans mark would work since it happens before turn 1...

"Castellan's Mark. If the bearer is on the battlefield, at the beginning of the game but before the first turn you can remove them and up to one friendly ADEPTUS CUSTODES unit within 6" of them from the battlefield and set them up again following the mission rules. You must set them up on the battlefield."

But... Set them up again following the mission rules? What does that mean?

#27
Dam13n

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Basically, it means redeploy within your deployment zone.


Edited by Dam13n, 18 April 2018 - 07:48 PM.


#28
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The mission rule would be reserves must be set up during turn 1. The beta only states turn one and does not apply to rules that happen before turn one.

The rule doesn't specify anything about deployment zones or 9" away, so pre beta DS rule, could you set up in the opponent's deployment zone. Surely not.

#29
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The quote you used states they must deploy according to the mission rules.

 

If you are setting up a unit according to the mission rules, but it must be placed on the battlefield, you cannot place the unit into reserves and you must deploy according to the restrictions listed in the mission.

 

These are listed under the "Deployment" section of the relevant mission.

 

For example:

 

A player's models must be set up within their own deployment zone.

 

Basically the rule you're questioning is unaffected by this Beta Rule as it has nothing to do with Tactical Reserves.



#30
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Well it's not like the Beta rules are compulsory at the moment so if you don't want to use them you won't have to until the next big FAQ after September when the actual changes take place hence the name Beta. beside just look at the psychic power nerf to Smite remember all that outcry about GKs and TS being affected by it and look what happened they got an exemption
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#31
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Hmmmm. Seems a weird and pointless relic to deploy in your deployment zone then redeploy before the start of the first turn. Is it like, hey my unit is here, no it's not it's over here, to mess with your opponent's deployment?

#32
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Basically, yes.

Regardless, this needs to get back on topic.

Further discussion not related to the proposed changes to Tactical Reserves will be deleted.

#33
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Is there a different between 'arrives' and 'set up'?

I think Auspex Scan and the new SM faq is relevant here.

Auspex scan lets you shoot a unit that is set up and arrives as reinforcements. The FAQ clarifies this can be used on units removed from the battlefield and set up again.

Edited by Gentlemanloser, 18 April 2018 - 11:08 PM.

QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#34
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I agree with the rule to an extent.

For non DS shooty armies having the enemy suddenly appearing right next to you, shooting you, and potentially charging at you, and taking all the objectives before you’ve even taken your turn was a bit unfair.

I think it may be better if they limit it

But I’d be happy if they made it so that the rule only applies to the player that goes first. That way player 2 still gets a decent turn and may actually cause players to think about whether they want to go first or second.
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#35
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I smell...hmm...a hint of melee salt...hmm and a fine aroma of not wanting to hurt what they love because its "fair".

 

All this talk of "-1 to shooting" turn 1 deep strike here, there is annoying me. Thanks, you tyranid players REALLY don't make it hard to spot you guys. So apparently you can drop genestealers in and have a surefire charge turn 1 but heaven forbid shooting be good?

 

Right ok...got my salt out so let me talk about this change.

 

This stops "Turn 1 stealing" as I call it. Simple fact is, the best tactic is to reserve your army because why deploy now when you can deploy literally within the same time frame (turn 1) and have movement equal to some of the faster units (to close to 9" from a 24" gap you need a movement of 15"). This means any unit can have a massive mega move turn 1 and this will be a theme in my post, turn 1 is the most important turn bar none. There is no drawback to reserving your army up to the 50% mark, just do it, don't think. Just do it. Why? Because why not have the ability to deploy wherever you like. Ok bubbles suck but any good player with an actual army will stop you deploying in their deployment zone anyway and GASP, its counter play and the opponent is trying to counter your plan? How dare they attempt to win!

So that's a big deal but the biggest part of it is as I have alluded to is the "turn 1 steal" where it isn't really stealing turn 1 but in effect it is: the unit gets to make its move without fear of being attacked. Big blob of genestealers in the enemy army? Yea you have the firepower for it but tough luck, they are going to deep strike in somewhere, have a tyrant order them up the board and charge turn 1 with no chance for you to reply with little more than poor quality overwatch. Fantastic, now I have genestealers in my army and I can't reply or even play around it unless I brought some good bubble wrap! No different with shooting really.

 

As it stands, reserving has no cost to you as a player in anyway. None. What does it cost you? "Wah, can't get in their deployment zone because they spread out to stop me" yet they are still deployed 9" from the closest target which is still closer than if they were to of deployed initially and walked. You get to quite literally have any unit get at worst 15" move for turn 1, and even if they do bubble up the mid board somehow, you get to deploy wherever they are needed so the opponent can't exactly place the unit on one side of the board and not get smacked by it.

Deep Striking turn 1 was a BAD idea in the first place. It offers no counter play and in fact makes it so Alpha strikes are more powerful and in fact makes it almost impossible to actually stop them even if you win the roll (because you know, the alpha strike is not there yet and you can't hit what ain't there).

Now there is a cost. You surrender the most important turn for the incredibe tactical positioning and targeting that deep strike offers. You have to wait a turn to get the units where you want now which now means you have to play with what you have until back-up arrives.

 

Good rule. All this deep striking silliness turn 1 was just daft. If it weren't for the 50% rule, the best armies would be majority in deep strike I wager just because they never need reveal themselves to the opponents turn 1 and thus always HAVE turn 1 (and would in turn actually mean going second is better as this way you waste a round of the opponents shooting and charging) which would lead us to a great game of "You deep strike first, no you". And if you want reasons, take a 20 blob of genestealers to the face turn 1 or a flurry of 20 shuriken catapults turn 1 to the face to understand why this is too good. (like I said, those units effectively get 15" move AT WORST).


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#36
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Nids can turn 1 charge from board. So can eldar, harlequins, deldar, and raven guard.

I'm sure there are others.

Oh and shooty armies, like eldar, also have strats and abilities, like auspex scan, to shoot those pesky cc deep strikers as they come in.

Not to mention repulsors and tanglefoot grenades making that first turn charge from ds next to impossible.

 

Edit: That's the counter play.  Including Scouts, and Screening. 

 

What counterplay is there to none LoS shooting?

 

Edit: Reserves has a *massive* cost.

 

Go second, and watch as your opponent can leverage their full force versus only half of yours.  That's a massive cost...

 

And no, 9" from a second turn opponent who can walk *up to your own* DZ can make it impossible for you to DS anywhere, even at the back edge of your own DZ.


Edited by Gentlemanloser, 19 April 2018 - 07:31 AM.

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QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#37
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Remember previous editions when only a very few units could DS on turn 1? Remember that? Remember how there were tactics for that too, and how to get the most out of it? Oh, you do remember that? Might I suggest you look upon this as less of a burden then, and more of a chance to use those surely magnificent tactical muscles of yours.


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#38
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Remember previous editions when only a very few units could DS on turn 1? Remember that? Remember how there were tactics for that too, and how to get the most out of it? Oh, you do remember that? Might I suggest you look upon this as less of a burden then, and more of a chance to use those surely magnificent tactical muscles of yours.

Remember previous edition when there was no overwatch, no mortal wounds, no safe plasma? Previous editions have little to do with the current rules.

 

Of course you can work around the new limitations, but other armies don't have to work around them because they do not want to get into combat in the first place. And if the most effective work around is to play a gunline army (i.e. Codex Marines in red), why wouldn't you just use the appropriate codex? What attracted at least some of us to BA is the different playstyle. If that playstyle is no longer viable, why play that army?


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#39
Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra

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Remember previous editions when only a very few units could DS on turn 1? Remember that? Remember how there were tactics for that too, and how to get the most out of it? Oh, you do remember that? Might I suggest you look upon this as less of a burden then, and more of a chance to use those surely magnificent tactical muscles of yours.

Remember previous edition when there was no overwatch, no mortal wounds, no safe plasma? Previous editions have little to do with the current rules.

My point being (since you clearly missed it) that this is nothing new, and since we were used to it from earlier, we shouldn't have a problem adapting to this change.

 

Once again, for the people in the back: this isn't new, we've been here before, and we made it work.

 

A third time, for those late to the party:  this isn't new, we've been here before, and we made it work.

 

If that playstyle is no longer viable, why play that army?
I still play my Deathwing, because I like them. Perhaps you should consider picking an army based on looks and fluff, and not just playstyle?

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#40
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A bit early to call it unplayable / unviable ?
I understand and share the concern, but its a bit soon for doomsay. How about we give the desing team a chance and give it a fair try. Then we bash them if you're right.
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#41
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A bit early to call it unplayable / unviable ?
I understand and share the concern, but its a bit soon for doomsay. How about we give the desing team a chance and give it a fair try. Then we bash them if you're right.

No, no, no, the sky is falling, cats have become dogs, and birds have been seen to fly backwards! It is a sign!


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#42
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OK, so how do you adapt to being unable to DS outside your DZ?

 

And in the same vein how do we adapt to not being shot off the board by LoS ignoring shooting?


QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#43
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OK, so how do you adapt to being unable to DS outside your DZ?

 

And in the same vein how do we adapt to not being shot off the board by LoS ignoring shooting?

1: same way you did back when you couldn't DS until turn 2 at the earliest anyway

 

2: same as you always did


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#44
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1: Nope.

 

Back then there wasn't the 9" away restriction and your opponent couldn't zone you out from available DS space.

 

 

2: By having 2+ saves that weren't reduced by lower AP.  Again, different game, even TDA isn't as safe any more.

 

 

We need new solutions, to the current state of the game.  Not rose tinted glasses back to an edition that was incomparable.


Edited by Gentlemanloser, 19 April 2018 - 01:13 PM.

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QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#45
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In context of an melee deepstrike bomb list, how to deal with not coming down turn 1 is waiting for turn 2 while clearing chaff. Its not a big deal.

Find out a 2000 point list that can shoot 1000 point off the table with only cover ignoring shooting in one turn while respecting the rule of 3 and you will find your awnser.

The right question is what can you do to mitigate the enemy leveraging his whole force against what you have on the table.
This is a consideration in both list building and deployment, there is no one size fits all awnser here, we all have to adapt.

#46
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Nids?  Hive Guard and Biovorse.

 

With swarms of gants to block any Turn 2 DS space.

 

It's not like Nids are one of the top tier armies atm anyway.  And these Beta changes don't help them at all...


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QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#47
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The Overminds have descended to tell us their lofty reasoning.

 

1: Nope.

 

Back then there wasn't the 9" away restriction and your opponent couldn't zone you out from available DS space.

 

 

2: By having 2+ saves that weren't reduced by lower AP.  Again, different game, even TDA isn't as safe any more.

 

 

We need new solutions, to the current state of the game.  Not rose tinted glasses back to an edition that was incomparable.

Back then, you couldn't charge out of DS, and widely-spread chaff units kept you well away from alpha-striking HVTs.

 

And I recall everyone crying about the amount of AP2 weapons back in the day, so it's not new that 2+ saves aren't "safe" anymore. At least these days you get a save against most anything. Besides, if you're really being swept off the board by non-LOS shooting, I dare say the problem lies with you. Or are you just putting 3 small units on the table?


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#48
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My friend, I dont know what to tell you.
I dont know of a list that is legal, can shoot that much that well AND can cover the board.
I think you are over reacting, take a step back, play a few game and then please tell us how it went.

#49
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Drop Pods got you DSing where you wanted, and the 9" range is the trade off for being able to charge from DS now (unless you were Vanguard Veteren).

 

I can't recall much, if any, AP2 shooting that ignored LoS

 

It's not just LoS ignoring shooting shooting you off the board.  I don't know about you but generally I can't hide my entire army behind LoS blocking Terrain.  The LoS ignoring shooting is for what you can hide.  And there's no counter / adapting to that.

 

BT, have you faced many nid lists?  It's easy for them to cover the board with multiple gant squads.  What would make 3x3 Hive Guard or Biovores illegal?

 

 

 

Edit: The point is, we can't fall back on tactics from previous editions as the answer.  As the core rules are so different as to make what you used to do meaningless or impossible.


Edited by Gentlemanloser, 19 April 2018 - 01:54 PM.

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QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#50
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I think Gentleman loser plays pure GK.

Imagine playing guard with GK. Pre game 4 scout sentinels move forward and push back the potential DS zone. Turn 1, sentinels move forward, fast tanks come in behind with 2 layers of infantry screens behind that and a gunline at the back.

Turn 2, GK can barely manage a DS in their own deployment zone.

GK pamming Razorbacks filled with interceptors might come close to helping but they can only take 3 6 man squads to ride.

GK getting turn one pre Beta rule would be an uphill struggle. Now GK has no answer to a gunline army.
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