The last nail in the coffin of Deathwing

[Helycon]

The Belicosa Volcano Cannon has an AP of -6. Take THAT Land Raider in Cover!

[sneakybamsen]

 

Besides, what would CC terminators and knights gain from firing upon deep striking?

 

I'm in general agreement with most of what you said, but I'm actually okay with this bit.  Tactical terminators were left on the shelf for the last 15 years because stormbolters just didn't do anything useful, it was Thundernator or go home. So I'm more than happy for the stormbolters to have their day in the sun.  And it's not exactly like melee terminators don't have a place.  When I field two units of terminators, the second one is always knights.  They are still awesome, even without DWA dakka.  So I don't see a problem.

 

Thundernators are outshone by knights because of the unwieldy thing, but that's not a shooty/melee issue.  In fact, I actually like it that way.  Other marines get second-rate hammers, we get maces.  Because we're quite frankly better than them.  I know that new editions shift the balance around, but I'm seriously considering tearing the arms off of my thundernators to make more tactical terminators.  And buying more knights.  Because those are the two types that I value.  It's possible that thundernators could slightly edge out knights in a future edition, but not by enough of a margin that it makes sense to have both of them at $12 a model.  If anything, once I have 20 knights and 20 tactical terminators, the next box would be lightning claws.  As a nasty surprise for orks and nids.

 

 

While I see where you're coming from, I don't see it as just needing something to make knights and/or tactical terminators work better (not just deathwing either). I LOVE lightning claws, even on marines, but so few kits actually let you build any dual LC models, except for assault terminators. Their rules haven't been awesome while I've been playing, to me it's all about looks. But I want all terminator variants to work better than they do currently, and I think the third wound would be the most reasonable way to go. There is just too much D2 shooting with decent AP that shreds terminators, and in melee, they are at great risk as well, due to several cheaper units being able to just pour dice at them. The third wound would, I feel, go a long way to make less elite units less effective at slaying terminators in close combat (which fluffwise is a mountainous task, unless you're a primarch). Normal marines would, on that note, be put right back into the mix with a second wound. They wouldn't need the second attack that primaris have, but wound number two would make them far closer to the superhumans they should be, at least vs lesser beings.

[Berzul]

You need to be concerned about escalation.

 

BUt yeah, I think that, given the changes to the wounds system, now it would be ok and would make sense for marines in general to have an extra wound over regular guardsmen and other normal humans.

[sneakybamsen]

True, things might escalate, but there can be no doubt that in the game, as it is, terminators are too easy to shift and don't do enough for their points. I lost 9,5 terminators to 20 bloodletters in the intial round of combat, that's 170'ish points (including banner) killing almost 492 pts (including two cyclone launchers, 392 without). Easily more than twice their value. I'm not saying bloodletters are too good, but you wouldn't be likely to see some beefed up master just swaggering up to Magnus or Mortarion and finish one of them off in 1 round. I know rolls were off averages in that case, more sensible rolling had killed 5 or 6 deathwing terminators. I also know bloodletters have statlines and rules that make them really good vs terminators, but even so, it's a fine example that TDA isn't what it should be. An extra wound would go a long way to fix that. Also I don't really see why primaris should be twice as tough as regular marines, but that is of course a different subject.

[Helycon]

All marines should have more wounds. They are now on par with regular humans. They may have higher toughness, but they should also be able to survive more punishment once wounded.

 

Just bumping terminators up to T5 makes them on par with Gravis armour. It's the save that should make terminators stand out. I still like the 2 dice 3+ save. It's just difficult to roll for at that point. All saves will need a separate roll of 2 dice.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Have you noticed that GW agrees but gave it to Primaris instead?

Grumble grumble snark snark. :D

I’m waiting patiently for 9th Ed but continue to play DW occasionally. At least RW and Greenwing is good.

[march10k]

The Belicosa Volcano Cannon has an AP of -6. Take THAT Land Raider in Cover!

 

What I like about AP-6 is that it leaves room for a special rule that halves an incoming shot's AP.  That would be in line with the old rules that denied close-range melta their double pen dice.  A land raider with that rule would be like "Woohoo, I get 5+ against volcano cannon!

 

True, things might escalate, but there can be no doubt that in the game, as it is, terminators are too easy to shift and don't do enough for their points. I lost 9,5 terminators to 20 bloodletters in the intial round of combat, that's 170'ish points (including banner) killing almost 492 pts (including two cyclone launchers, 392 without). Easily more than twice their value. I'm not saying bloodletters are too good, but you wouldn't be likely to see some beefed up master just swaggering up to Magnus or Mortarion and finish one of them off in 1 round. I know rolls were off averages in that case, more sensible rolling had killed 5 or 6 deathwing terminators. I also know bloodletters have statlines and rules that make them really good vs terminators, but even so, it's a fine example that TDA isn't what it should be. An extra wound would go a long way to fix that. Also I don't really see why primaris should be twice as tough as regular marines, but that is of course a different subject.

 

Well, as you say, it was an exceptional outcome on the dice, even in a situation where a unit especially designed to sodomize terminators happened to get the charge off against them...I agree that termies need to be a bit hardier, but this isn't the most compelling anecdote!

 

As for marines and primaris, maybe marines have 1.3 wounds, rounded down, and primaris have 1.6 wounds, rounded up, LOL

[sneakybamsen]

As a follow-up to my last post, I had the third of four league games the other night, and in that game the DW guys did good. Not great, they might even have struggled to make their points back, but they came in at a clutch moment (T3) and with Belial ate a lot of infrantry (emperor's children, burn heretics) and a rhino. Soaked a lot of fire, and lost 6 guys, but when turn 7 ended, 4 were still standing, and they made sure I won the game, which had been looking bleak in terms of VP until turn 6 came.

[Berzul]

I had the opposite experience last night. That charge distance.... it almost makes it a tax to have to bring the LR or a character as Warlord with Master of Maneuver with them. What I wouldn't give for a stratagem that gave me some more movement here or there with them...

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yep, not enough speed, not enough resilience, not enough firepower, not enough melee; if they had one or two they’d be useful again.

[sneakybamsen]

Yep, not enough speed, not enough resilience, not enough firepower, not enough melee; if they had one or two they’d be useful again.

 

Hey, I'm trying to make them look less bad, not worse off! ;)

 

Mine did get to charge, and they were charged by a rhino (my opponent was hoping it would blow up I think) later, what they di was smash face with their fists and 80 bolter shots and 4 krak missiles on the drop. The last league game will also be against heretics (alpha legion), and I'm expecting them to deliver against the scum :D

[Endgame]

 

Yep, not enough speed, not enough resilience, not enough firepower, not enough melee; if they had one or two they’d be useful again.

How much melee are you looking for? Over the weekend I landed in combat against nids with 3x TH + 2 LC termies, Asmodi, and a deathwing ancient - that group (plus fortress of shields and aversion) chewed through the better part of 60 gene stealers over 3 turns.

 

I don't have a benchmark of exactly what to compare against, but it seemed good... however my dice were hot on the first charge (after rerolls all the attacks hit, and I think I only missed 1 wound roll) and on the saves, so its really hard to judge fairly.

[FlamingDeth]

The rerolls are pretty important there. This weekend I got one TH and three LC terminators stuck in against fire warriors and managed to kill three of them. Granted, the dice were certainly cold for me, but rerolls to hit would have made it far prettier. Shooting was another story, especially with DWA shooting seems to be in a good place. Same game saw a squad with four SBs and an assault cannon neuter a riptide down to two wounds with no drones left in one round of shooting. They did have rerolls though.

[Berzul]

I guess it all depends a bit on the opponent.

 

I ran a squad of knights against Blood Angels, who can quickly run away from a fight. Had I been running them against say, orks, or tyranids, or demons of khorne, they would have leaned into it, instead of getting me stranded.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Sounds like your DW guys are having a better time than mine, good to hear.

[G8Keeper]

They also massacre Reivers nicely. Mine recently withstood a charge and thwomped them back with disdain in return, denying an objective to the enemy and winning me the game