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Raven Guard Tactica in a Changing Meta


Dracos

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Breathe . . . 

 

Okay, so this is by request/command (lol) a topic to focus our thoughts on the chnages in 8th edition brought on by FAQs, specifically the most recent Big FAQ that has many in distress over the "shambles" it has left their army in. I'll start with a few points but this is intended to be a very open topic ... my only stipulation being we try and focus on effects upon the House of Corax :)

 

 

1) Rule of Three: I don't see it having a negative effect on our Chapter as spamming Troop choices is generally more our style. It might effect someone with 4 VV units ... that's like really rare right? Positive side is Supreme Command detachments got nerfed a bit (looking at you Nids ... and couple others).

 

2) Targeting Characters and Psychic Focus: I still think each Chapter needs a Chapter specific Psychic Power, but just saying thanks and moving on. 

 

3) Command Points: I personally was okay with a Battalion and a Vanguard detachment. While I welcome a couple more points, I feel this is going to be more help to Hordes than Elite armies. Still not a game changer, either way, in my opinion though.

 

4) Battle Brothers: I apologize for the following if it effects you (I do honestly) but ... it's for the best. Soup lives, it's just less wild than before.

 

Yeah, not even numbering the next one.

 

 

 

Tactical Reserves . . . . 

 

 

Understand most my thoughts come from playing primarily Primaris ... I like it and hate it. Most importantly though ... Marine ... so will overcome and adapt to the parts I hate and appreciate that which I love. 

 

I haven't heard it mentioned a lot, but I think the limit on PL instead of Unit number is actually the bigger game changer in these rules. I'm having to spend some real quality deciding on how this effects what I'm putting in to Reserves (Deep Striking and SftS). Like most I assume, The higher costing point units were the units in Reserve. Now there has to be a PL balance between those and what starts on the tabletop during deployment. I hope this "doubling down" on the cost for units capable of deep striking is mitigated somehow. I'm okay with nerfing Alpha Strikes but then think the points for said you units should get some kind of discount of at least a point or two.

 

 

I see many touting SftS as the thing now, but I think that's not very forward looking. Without a Turn One Deep Striker to reinforce them Strike from the Shadow units are going to harder to give support to, making survival and effectiveness an issue to be addressed.

 

For my army, Before Big FAQ, I had two units I planned to use to pressure the enemy's flank and or backfield. Captain, Aggressor/Inceptor, each supported by a Reiver squad. Points and PL aside. there will be no using deep strike in Turn One to apply that pressure. Any units using SftS are on their own until Turn Two now. While remaining effective one Turn that way might have been possible I am fairly certain my opponent having two Turns (assuming they have first go) is going to be tough.

 

My point is we are going to have to do some deep thinking in how we apply SftS. It's not a blunt instrument like Deep Striking and balancing the PL 50/50 is the big game changer in building tactically effective army list.

 

I'll be looking at these issues on my day off tomorrow while I'm prepping some more Hellblasters and Inceptors for ETL.

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The Tactical Reserves thing doesn't hurt us nearly as much as some other armies.

 

Imagine how the guy with the almost all melee mono-Khorne Daemon army feels. He relied on deep striking to even get most of his units in position to do anything at all. Now his opponent potentially has 2 movement phases to ensure that he can't attack anything but chaff units.

 

Coupled with the removal of the wobbly model rule and he's virtually helpless against a strong shooting army.

 

We got off light in comparison because we at least get to keep SFTS.

 

With more Command Points we don't have to support with a 1st turn deep strike. We can just SFTS those units too. They were already in reserve anyway, so the only thing that changes is how and when they come in.

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Hrmm bikes do seem to have more of a purpose now to get some T1 mobility and threats, might have to try that a bit more

 

I am really happy with the increase to CP's instead of trying to hamfist a double battalion, I can take a Vanguard + Battalion for the same number of CP's and spend a bit more points optimising load out on my squads :D

9 CP's would be great! :)

 

Rule of 3 I can't imagine effects us too much, as most of our options are quite expensive, to take more than 3 you're probably sacrificing other units

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I play tons of different lists; always trying out new things and seeking out the one that I feel the most comfortable with, and tweaking it as necessary depending on the opponent and game-type.  For the purposes of this topic, I'll assume that we're talking about making effective, competitive lists within the boundaries of the new rules.
 
COMMAND POINT INCREASE
On the surface, you might think this will help hordes and you're "technically" right, but you can still only use each strat once per phase (which really translates to turn for a lot of them) and most of those target one unit. So in my mind, the benefit to armies that were already swimming in CP are minimal and will only really affect turns 4 and 5 potentially.  My mind keeps going back to the Nid player I face a lot who pops CP like candy already anyway.  So he'll get 18 instead of 15 or whatever.  More playtesting required.
 
TACTICAL RESERVES
Beyond the actual changes to MY own army, (which I think is off topic really) I'm more excited about the changes to the way the game works, I feel like I actually might spend some time thinking about how I can increase my fire-base to fight more of a battle of attrition from long range, instead of feeling like I need to use my SftS to alpha strike people off the board on Turn 1 so I wasn't suffering the same fate.  
 
We also play with more terrain than many I think, and so ultimately, I think I'm going to go for more non-LoS shooting like Whirlwinds, Whirlwind Scorpious, and Thunderfire Cannons.  The TFC got a boost in my opinion because with the removal of Turn 1 DS, your main worry becomes armies like Genestealers + Swarmlord charging across the board without deep strike, and if you get the first turn you can really hurt that tactic by using Tremor Shells on the 'stealers. (or whatever fast unit) Plus, you get a Techmarine with it and he can repair your vehicles should they take indirect fire themselves.
 
TL;DR-
Will be increasing the size of my firebase at the expense of my SftS "alpha strike" (which ultimately was really there to prevent ME from getting butchered by an alpha strike)
 

I see many touting SftS as the thing now, but I think that's not very forward looking. Without a Turn One Deep Striker to reinforce them Strike from the Shadow units are going to harder to give support to, making survival and effectiveness an issue to be addressed.
 
This is true.  Pulling out a random scenario from my backside though, if you were deep striking a Captain and Lt to your fire-base coming in via SftS, and you play a Battalion, you can just use your 2 new free CP to use SftS on those guys as well and come out even.
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I’ve heard people mention bikes as a good way to get support up the board quickly T1...?

 

I do like Bikes more, and Attack Bikes too. Single Attack Bikes are a pain to get rid of really because the opponent is never really sure how much firepower to shoot at them, and they are effective in a lot of roles.  For 47 points, I love em.

 

However, I do feel like if you want to use a lot of Bikes, that would be in a more "assault" army style.  Like for all the sad Blood Angels out there.  Run up Bikers to clear chaff Turn 1, drop down and charge Turn 2.  If that's your game, I think it can be pretty effective.

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I'm interested to see how this all shakes out. I try really hard to not alpha strike my opponents because it usually goes bad for me since I'm running what i have and no where near optimized.

 

I do have an attack bike that I've been sitting on that may get some work done. I might consider picking up a scout bike/regular bike squad as well... not sure.

 

I'm happy that SFtS is still with us, but as Inquisitor Dracos said it's even more critical to think about how it will be used. I think I will still use it on 1-2 units per game but it may be used more defensively than offensively. It's a great way to increase your null-deploys and force your opponent to set up, then you can try to counter that setup but still have full movement on your turn.

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We are fine just keep going heavy scout board control and force the press on with sfts the fight so they will be forced to dig out of their deployment zone.  The only thing i think we need to do is take something heavy that can poke custodies and certain other things hard.  I think the sicarian and the sicarian venator will become important to marines.

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We are fine just keep going heavy scout board control and force the press on with sfts the fight so they will be forced to dig out of their deployment zone.  The only thing i think we need to do is take something heavy that can poke custodies and certain other things hard.  I think the sicarian and the sicarian venator will become important to marines.

 

I hate saying this, because it's not thematic, but putting shrike next to a unit like a laz predator or the sicarian is a great idea since he gives rerolls on all failed rolls to all RG units.

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We are fine just keep going heavy scout board control and force the press on with sfts the fight so they will be forced to dig out of their deployment zone.  The only thing i think we need to do is take something heavy that can poke custodies and certain other things hard.  I think the sicarian and the sicarian venator will become important to marines.

 

I hate saying this, because it's not thematic, but putting shrike next to a unit like a laz predator or the sicarian is a great idea since he gives rerolls on all failed rolls to all RG units.

 

This is why the venator i think will be key it ignores penalties for moving and shooting heavy weapons and with a 14" move you do not need to camp like you do with a predator.

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Quick note:

if you’re having issues balancing the PL 50/50 for SftS because of the new rules try shifting some unit numbers around.

 

For instance, instead of 3 squads of 5 Intercessors ... see if 2 squads of 7 can work for you ... or just add one to any unit choice on the board and it increase board PL by a whole unit.

 

I’m still working on my own list to see how I want to make adjustments. I imagine it’d be easier if didn’t insist on keeping almost everything Primaris. Choices choices choices :)

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Uh ... your a riot :) No units of 6-9? I’ll take my chances with the Hereticus. Not fans of those guys unless I am those guys lol. ;)

 

(Primaris get exemptions anyway ... being more resistant to Chaos has to have some benefit: that should be a stratagem :D)

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Quick note:

if you’re having issues balancing the PL 50/50 for SftS because of the new rules try shifting some unit numbers around.

 

For instance, instead of 3 squads of 5 Intercessors ... see if 2 squads of 7 can work for you ... or just add one to any unit choice on the board and it increase board PL by a whole unit.

 

I’m still working on my own list to see how I want to make adjustments. I imagine it’d be easier if didn’t insist on keeping almost everything Primaris. Choices choices choices :smile.:

 

What you're saying here is important, because the moment you go over the "default" size, you get ratcheted up to the next PL value. This goes both ways, for both the units on the board at game start, and the units in Tactical Reserve. Meaning:

 

+Units you SFTS should be either Minimum or Maximum size. If you take them at some value in between, you are paying the Max PL value in balance for a unit with LESS THAN that in PL value.

 

+Units that you drop in the deployment phase should frequently be Min+1 to ratchet them up to the next tier of PL (6 Scouts, 6 Tacticals, 6 Intercessors, etc)

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Dracos just broke GW.

Actually, I was thinking I'm making them money. Everyone should be buying in squads of 6 (yeah the Emperor

forgives in Victory). So now go buy a new box of troops to go beef up all those MSU squads you were using :wink:

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Actually, doesn't the Tactical Reserve rule make Lias Issodon less useful since you can't bring him and the three units you selected in on the first turn unless they're in your deployment zone?

Yep. Issodon drop was the superior (units can't get shot until they arrive), free (no CP) version of SftS, with the only downsides being limited to non-primaris power armour and not reaching CC easily.

 

Now it can only serve to hide/counter deploy backfield units at turn 1, or wait until turn 2 to fill the board. We have to play more defensively, keeping SftS/fast units out of enemy reach until turn 2. Effectively like last edition...

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Actually, I was thinking I'm making them money. Everyone should be buying in squads of 6 (yeah the Emperorforgives in Victory). So now go buy a new box of troops to go beef up all those MSU squads you were using ;)

How dare you good sir!

 

Seriously, the PL idea overall sees benefit to something that was a head-scratcher before (where 6 Tac Marines would have the same "value" as 10).

 

It's out-the-box thinking that the RG are renown for ^_^

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Hi everyone, two questions:

 

1) I thought Sfts didn't put units in reserve, just let you deploy them later than your oppoenent, so didn't have to follow deep striking rules.

 

2) What is VV?

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Hi everyone, two questions:

 

1) I thought Sfts didn't put units in reserve, just let you deploy them later than your oppoenent, so didn't have to follow deep striking rules.

 

2) What is VV?

 

1 - I'll have to dig but I think an FAQ stated anything deployed 'off the board' counted towards reserves.

 

2 - VV = Vanguard Veterans

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