How to make GK work with Beta DS rule

[Sweetcurse]

Feels less like a beta rule and more like easing us into a bad change.

[Waking Dreamer]

We'll need builds that can have half the army's power level survive Turn 1 enemy shooting. Strong gunline armies look to become stronger since they don't have to worry as much against alpha-strikes anymore.

[Happy-inquisitor]

We'll need builds that can have half the army's power level survive Turn 1 enemy shooting. Strong gunline armies look to become stronger since they don't have to worry as much against alpha-strikes anymore.

 

It wasn't turn one charges stopping AM from winning anymore, they have enough boots on the ground to stop that anyway. It was much more the prevalence of -1 to hit armies and the lack of mobility that comes with turtling up to deny assault for several turns hurting them on objective missions.

 

The immediate reaction to the FAQ looks to be splitting into a classic rock-paper-scissors of

 

Static gunline - armies with -1 to hit - assault armies

 

i doubt it will stay that simple for more than the first couple of tournaments as we all work out the real consequences of the changes.

 

GK are not the most points efficient army out there but being one of the ones that can put together a really strong turn 1 in-your-face attack might work a bit better now that this is a slightly rare feat rather than something that pretty much every non-gunline army does. Players will probably invest a little less in their turn 1 assault defences than they were before the FAQ. Also having got smite back is good especially as most other armies now have it limited - so opponents will not commit quite so hard to having counters for smite because the massed version is just not as ubiquitous as it was at the heights of the Malefic Lord's reign of terror.

 

Relatively I think it is quite good for GK. Still not going to make such a small faction top-table for players who self-limit themselves to "pure" lists but no change there.

[Gentlemanloser]

The smite change is laughable.

 

When you face nids and they decide to only use one smite a turn. And hit you for 9mw with it.

 

Perhaps They decide a +1 in WC is an ok trade off to hit you with a second.

[Corvus Fortis]

Look at this from different point: gunlines will take less sceen, knowing they can spread t1. They will invest this points to more guns\buffs. They will definitely deny us area on turn 1 and deny even more on turn 2, if they are going second. So no, we do not benifit from "perhaps, there will be less sceen so good for us" at all. 

 

We are still talking about abstract armies in abstract situation. So, I suggest an mental exercise. Here are three lists from the last tournament I participated in.

 

Eldar, Alaitoc

Farseer

2 Warlocks

3x5Rangers

10 and 5 reapers

2xSerpents

2xHemlock

All important casts: guide, fortune, jinx\protect, conceal\reveal

 

AdMech, Stygies VIII

 

Dominus

Enginseer

3x5 Rangers

Dragoon

Dunecrawler

Double Kastellans

Knight Crusader

 

Ultramarines

Brother-Captain

Lieutenant

Scout Snipers

2x5 Intercessors

5xHellblasters

5xGrav-Devastators

2xLasPredators (one with Chronus)

2xLasRazorbacks

 

Here is 3 1500 pts lists. How would you deal with them with new beta rules? As you can see, they are even not top tier ones. 

[Danarc]

 

 

We'll need builds that can have half the army's power level survive Turn 1 enemy shooting. Strong gunline armies look to become stronger since they don't have to worry as much against alpha-strikes anymore.

It wasn't turn one charges stopping AM from winning anymore, they have enough boots on the ground to stop that anyway. It was much more the prevalence of -1 to hit armies and the lack of mobility that comes with turtling up to deny assault for several turns hurting them on objective missions.

 

The immediate reaction to the FAQ looks to be splitting into a classic rock-paper-scissors of

 

Static gunline - armies with -1 to hit - assault armies

 

i doubt it will stay that simple for more than the first couple of tournaments as we all work out the real consequences of the changes.

 

GK are not the most points efficient army out there but being one of the ones that can put together a really strong turn 1 in-your-face attack might work a bit better now that this is a slightly rare feat rather than something that pretty much every non-gunline army does. Players will probably invest a little less in their turn 1 assault defences than they were before the FAQ. Also having got smite back is good especially as most other armies now have it limited - so opponents will not commit quite so hard to having counters for smite because the massed version is just not as ubiquitous as it was at the heights of the Malefic Lord's reign of terror.

 

Relatively I think it is quite good for GK. Still not going to make such a small faction top-table for players who self-limit themselves to "pure" lists but no change there.

I strongly disagree. If you want to replicate pagk strike 30 interceptors cost 750 points. Almost 1000 eith draigo or a buffing QG. I dont’t think that anyone here wants to spend half points in a outrider detachment. Especially if they are going to die in the next turn (as happen). So we can use 15 interceptor and they aren’t so good. Bring 60 stormbolter shots will only kill 17 light infantry or 6 pa.

We don’t have an alpha strike strategy.

[Muaddib]

Dude, the 2 imperium lists are not that hard to beat!! And I don’t know for the eldar one, ‘cause i didn’t face them enough so far.

But I really won’t start marrant beaten if I had to face the Mecanicus and Ultramarines. And even less in a maelström of war mission.

I’d take my standard list :

 

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [81 PL, 1495pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

Gametype: Matched

 

+ HQ +

 

Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 290pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Daemon Greathammer, Sanctuary, Warlord

 

+ Troops +

 

Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]: Gate of Infinity

. 4x Grey Knight (Sword): 4x Storm Bolter

. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

 

+ Elites +

 

Paladin Squad [10 PL, 178pts]: Vortex of Doom

. 2x Paladin (Sword): 2x Storm Bolter

. Paragon: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 125pts]: Hammerhand

. 4x Interceptor (Falchions): 4x Storm Bolter

. Interceptor Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

 

Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 125pts]: Hammerhand

. 4x Interceptor (Falchions): 4x Storm Bolter

. Interceptor Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

 

Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 125pts]: Hammerhand

. 4x Interceptor (Falchions): 4x Storm Bolter

. Interceptor Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Purgation Squad [7 PL, 113pts]: Astral Aim

. 4x Purgator (Psilencer): 4x Psilencer

. Purgator Justicar: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

 

+ Flyer +

 

Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 354pts]: 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon, Two Hurricane Bolters, Typhoon Missile Launcher

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]: Hunter-killer missile, 2x Storm bolter

 

++ Total: [81 PL, 1495pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe

 

(Don’t take the psychic powers into account here please).

 

Pallies and Strikes in DP T2, interceptors in transports w/ purgators and maybe Draigo.

Interceptors get out and shunt and GMNDK gates T1 with Heed (he now starts on board anyway) and Sanctuary. SR kills big stuff.

T2 pallies and strikes (and sometimes Draigo I guess...) DP where they can and do their stuff.

 

It’s not overpowered but I really think it’s playable!

And I already faced that kind of SM list (in the early days of 8th) with success.

[Panzer]

 

 

We'll need builds that can have half the army's power level survive Turn 1 enemy shooting. Strong gunline armies look to become stronger since they don't have to worry as much against alpha-strikes anymore.

It wasn't turn one charges stopping AM from winning anymore, they have enough boots on the ground to stop that anyway. It was much more the prevalence of -1 to hit armies and the lack of mobility that comes with turtling up to deny assault for several turns hurting them on objective missions.

 

The immediate reaction to the FAQ looks to be splitting into a classic rock-paper-scissors of

 

Static gunline - armies with -1 to hit - assault armies

 

i doubt it will stay that simple for more than the first couple of tournaments as we all work out the real consequences of the changes.

 

GK are not the most points efficient army out there but being one of the ones that can put together a really strong turn 1 in-your-face attack might work a bit better now that this is a slightly rare feat rather than something that pretty much every non-gunline army does. Players will probably invest a little less in their turn 1 assault defences than they were before the FAQ. Also having got smite back is good especially as most other armies now have it limited - so opponents will not commit quite so hard to having counters for smite because the massed version is just not as ubiquitous as it was at the heights of the Malefic Lord's reign of terror.

 

Relatively I think it is quite good for GK. Still not going to make such a small faction top-table for players who self-limit themselves to "pure" lists but no change there.

I strongly disagree. If you want to replicate pagk strike 30 interceptors cost 750 points. Almost 1000 eith draigo or a buffing QG. I dont’t think that anyone here wants to spend half points in a outrider detachment. Especially if they are going to die in the next turn (as happen). So we can use 15 interceptor and they aren’t so good. Bring 60 stormbolter shots will only kill 17 light infantry or 6 pa.

We don’t have an alpha strike strategy.

 

 

Then again, if Stormbolter shots don't count as alpha strike strategy for GK, you never had an alpha strike strategy to begin with so nothing about that changed. ^^

[Gentlemanloser]

Charging from ds.

 

Dropping drsigo/voldis gmndk and apoths.

 

That was the alpha. You got the charge rolls off we had a good game.

 

You didn't. We'd usually lose.

[Danarc]

Our alpha stormbolter is gundamental to try to kill screens.

[Panzer]

Charging from DS was never reliable for GK. A strategy with less than 50% chance to succeed isn't a strategy. It's desperation.

[STTAB]

Playing around with it. One storm raven with 10 interceptors, one with 2*6. Voldus on table.

 

Turn 1, 2 storm ravens move as far forward as possible. Voldus gates up to join them. Sanctuary on one raven. Psybolt on one raven. Unload all shots. If you go second and lose a storm raven, surviving disembarked interceptors shunt up.

 

Turn 2. Interceptors disembark and move through screens to attack juicy stuff.

 

Probably needs turn 1 to work.

 

One outrider detachment and 1382/2000. Add hq+strikes for battalion or ally something else in with the remaining 618 points.

 

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [88 PL, 1382pts] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Grand Master Voldus [10 PL, 190pts]:

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Interceptor Squad [16 PL, 250pts]:

. 10x Interceptor

 

Interceptor Squad [16 PL, 150pts]:

. 6x Interceptor

 

 

Interceptor Squad [16 PL, 150pts]:

. 6x Interceptor

 

+ Flyer +

 

Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 321pts]: 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Heavy Bolter, Twin Lascannon, Two Hurricane Bolters

 

Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 321pts]: 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Heavy Bolter, Twin Lascannon, Two Hurricane Bolters

 

++ Total: [88 PL, 1382pts] ++

 

Draigo would get more out of the storm ravens as they degrade but I went for voldus to hammerhand/sanctuary a interceptor squad.

[Gentlemanloser]

Charging from DS was never reliable for GK. A strategy with less than 50% chance to succeed isn't a strategy. It's desperation.

You're not wrong.

 

But That is literally all we had.

 

Now That little slice of desperation is being taken away, and we do not have the depth to adjust.

 

That's why the continued negativity.

[Helycon]

 

Charging from DS was never reliable for GK. A strategy with less than 50% chance to succeed isn't a strategy. It's desperation.

You're not wrong.

 

But That is literally all we had.

 

Now That little slice of desperation is being taken away, and we do not have the depth to adjust.

 

That's why the continued negativity.

It's an issue most assault armies face though. GK aren't the only ones that mostly rely on closing the gap quickly to be effective. GK did have a good way to massacre screens, which other assault armies tend to lack.

 

I'd like for something to make charges more reliable for GK. That would help out quite a bit. It feels like FttF could add an inch or two. Then again, it'd be our go to warlord trait.

[Capt. Mytre]

 

 

Charging from DS was never reliable for GK. A strategy with less than 50% chance to succeed isn't a strategy. It's desperation.

You're not wrong.

 

But That is literally all we had.

 

Now That little slice of desperation is being taken away, and we do not have the depth to adjust.

 

That's why the continued negativity.

It's an issue most assault armies face though. GK aren't the only ones that mostly rely on closing the gap quickly to be effective. GK did have a good way to massacre screens, which other assault armies tend to lack.

 

I'd like for something to make charges more reliable for GK. That would help out quite a bit. It feels like FttF could add an inch or two. Then again, it'd be our go to warlord trait.

 

 

Yes, but most cc armies have special rules that make them better getting into CC. Orks/Tyranids/Harlequins/Demons all have innate special rules or buffs that get them into CC more reliably.

 

We have just DS + a warlord trait, and you know what? If we were a cheap army, that would be fine. You could spam these cheap units (like ork boyz), and you'd make the assault with at least some of them. However, we can't spam due to our high points costs, if you take min units they don't have enough punch.

 

GK need a codex re-write. One aspect I'd adjust would be GK can advance and still charge. They can also advance after any form of DS (inc. GoI/Shunt), but limited to D3".

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

 

We'll need builds that can have half the army's power level survive Turn 1 enemy shooting. Strong gunline armies look to become stronger since they don't have to worry as much against alpha-strikes anymore.

It wasn't turn one charges stopping AM from winning anymore, they have enough boots on the ground to stop that anyway. It was much more the prevalence of -1 to hit armies and the lack of mobility that comes with turtling up to deny assault for several turns hurting them on objective missions.

 

The immediate reaction to the FAQ looks to be splitting into a classic rock-paper-scissors of

 

Static gunline - armies with -1 to hit - assault armies

 

i doubt it will stay that simple for more than the first couple of tournaments as we all work out the real consequences of the changes.

 

GK are not the most points efficient army out there but being one of the ones that can put together a really strong turn 1 in-your-face attack might work a bit better now that this is a slightly rare feat rather than something that pretty much every non-gunline army does. Players will probably invest a little less in their turn 1 assault defences than they were before the FAQ. Also having got smite back is good especially as most other armies now have it limited - so opponents will not commit quite so hard to having counters for smite because the massed version is just not as ubiquitous as it was at the heights of the Malefic Lord's reign of terror.

 

Relatively I think it is quite good for GK. Still not going to make such a small faction top-table for players who self-limit themselves to "pure" lists but no change there.

I strongly disagree. If you want to replicate pagk strike 30 interceptors cost 750 points. Almost 1000 eith draigo or a buffing QG. I dont’t think that anyone here wants to spend half points in a outrider detachment. Especially if they are going to die in the next turn (as happen). So we can use 15 interceptor and they aren’t so good. Bring 60 stormbolter shots will only kill 17 light infantry or 6 pa.

We don’t have an alpha strike strategy.

 

 

You strongly disagree based on what? OK you strongly disagree, that is a fact but it means almost nothing: two anonymous people on the internet do not agree on something.

 

If you have been playing pure GK from any point after the 5th Ed codes went away (which had allies built-in so was never pure anyway) you have been needlessly crippling yourself for 2 editions now. At which point nothing I or anyone else can say will help you.

[The Custodian]

 

 

 

 

We'll need builds that can have half the army's power level survive Turn 1 enemy shooting. Strong gunline armies look to become stronger since they don't have to worry as much against alpha-strikes anymore.

It wasn't turn one charges stopping AM from winning anymore, they have enough boots on the ground to stop that anyway. It was much more the prevalence of -1 to hit armies and the lack of mobility that comes with turtling up to deny assault for several turns hurting them on objective missions.

 

The immediate reaction to the FAQ looks to be splitting into a classic rock-paper-scissors of

 

Static gunline - armies with -1 to hit - assault armies

 

i doubt it will stay that simple for more than the first couple of tournaments as we all work out the real consequences of the changes.

 

GK are not the most points efficient army out there but being one of the ones that can put together a really strong turn 1 in-your-face attack might work a bit better now that this is a slightly rare feat rather than something that pretty much every non-gunline army does. Players will probably invest a little less in their turn 1 assault defences than they were before the FAQ. Also having got smite back is good especially as most other armies now have it limited - so opponents will not commit quite so hard to having counters for smite because the massed version is just not as ubiquitous as it was at the heights of the Malefic Lord's reign of terror.

 

Relatively I think it is quite good for GK. Still not going to make such a small faction top-table for players who self-limit themselves to "pure" lists but no change there.

I strongly disagree. If you want to replicate pagk strike 30 interceptors cost 750 points. Almost 1000 eith draigo or a buffing QG. I dont’t think that anyone here wants to spend half points in a outrider detachment. Especially if they are going to die in the next turn (as happen). So we can use 15 interceptor and they aren’t so good. Bring 60 stormbolter shots will only kill 17 light infantry or 6 pa.

We don’t have an alpha strike strategy.

You strongly disagree based on what? OK you strongly disagree, that is a fact but it means almost nothing: two anonymous people on the internet do not agree on something.

 

If you have been playing pure GK from any point after the 5th Ed codes went away (which had allies built-in so was never pure anyway) you have been needlessly crippling yourself for 2 editions now. At which point nothing I or anyone else can say will help you.

What you say about allies is true, we were an army who wasn’t meant to be stand-alone, but in the last 2 edition they decided that that was the case (we got our own codex) even though they knew it would be hard for us.

Now they could have easily returned to the old ways but they didn’t. They instead added another similar codex lately ( custodes) and another one even before( Deathwatch) .

We are meant to be able to be a stand-alone without crippling ourselves( battle brothers in the FAQ is to limit soup armies)

As of right now we are in a bad spot, can we deal with it? Yes. Can we be as effective as before? Maybe? I don’t think so. The point darnac made about that outrider being a point-sink is quite true but for now it’s all we’got and its not that good

[STTAB]

GK can be thematically great at Alpha strike now.

 

Ally inquisitors, acolytes and Valkyries.

 

The Valkyrie can drop the acolytes and inquisitors 9" from enemy (grav chute insertion), turn one, then move turn one, then shoot, then charge (3" 97.22% chance to make it, lol)

 

The acolytes can be kitted out with all sorts of stuff. Storm bolter, plasma would be worth thinking about. Prefer the idea of all chainsword and pistols.

 

The valkerie is -1 to hit T7, 14 wounds. Transports 12.

 

34 chainsword/bolt pistol acolytes, 2 basic inquisitors and 3 basic valkeries are 810 points. Probably best pay 68 points for storm bolters for 136 shots, then charge 3" with 68 S3 fist attacks.

[STTAB]

*forgot rule of 3.

 

Make that 18 acolytes.

[Capt. Mytre]

*forgot rule of 3.

 

Make that 18 acolytes.

 

It isn't a rule, it's a tournament suggested guideline. Unless you're playing at a tournament that enforces the rule, it doesn't exist.

[Sweetcurse]

But many of us don’t want to soup with inquisition, we want a pure GK army.

[Capt. Mytre]

But many of us don’t want to soup with inquisition, we want a pure GK army.

 

Sadly, until we get a codex rewrite, I don't see us ever being even mid tier.

[Gentlemanloser]

Cant take the Valk with the inquisition. You would need a third detachment of guard.

[STTAB]

3 would be for the airwing detachment.

 

Pretty good tactic for inquisition/scions. Would make space for a GK turn 2 DS.

 

Personally I don't want to be moving 1000000 models.

[Corvus Fortis]

And after that just count, how many points left for GK part.